Orlovsky: Bills have become one of best screen teams

[Big Turk]

7 minutes ago, finn said:

I'd like to see more analysis of why the run game keeps getting blown up. The Atlantic pins the blame mostly on Saffold and Bates, with weak play by Van Roten and missed blocks by the tight ends thrown in. Saffold in particular appears to be a liability. He either whiffs or gets stood up and the back runs into him. I wonder if the Bills will make a change at the bye week, maybe move Bates back to left guard, where evidently he's more comfortable, and plugging someone into the right guard spot. Not sure when Boettger is due back, but he's a possibility. Hart and Quessenberry are more tackles, but they can't do much worse than Saffold. Maybe the new guy, Jordan Simmons? 

 

 

See my post 6 posts above yours with the link to the John Fina podcast and a play he talks about what is happening.

[HoofHearted]

43 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So every OLman who has spoken to the press has raved about how Kromer works to a guy's strengths.  Why is he so determined on zone runs then?

 

As far as simple zone rules, doesn't it get a lot more complicated than that?  Since teams seem to be doing a lot of stunts and blitzes against us?  In theory, sure, he's in your area, block the guy, but if the body you expect to block goes elsewhere or there are several bodies, I know that's where communication about blocking schemes comes into it.

 

 

Isn't the deep pass to the center of the field one of the two canonical ways to defeat Cover 0 (yes, assuming you have protection and/or mobility to buy time for it), along with the screen pass?

 

Kollman did a nice thing on it a couple years back, do you disagree?

 

The rules are the rules. They are simple in principle. You're correct that movement makes it a lot more complex which is why everyone has to be on the same page and rely on their rules. If I'm uncovered initially, but they stunt to where I am now covered I have to follow my rule. I'm sure Kromer does work to their strengths - a lot of that has more to do with how he's teaching individual technique stuff though more so than scheme.

 

As a defensive coordinator for many years, any time I call Man pressure's I am telling my coverage guys the ball has to come out quick because I'm bringing more than they can block and attacking their pass protection in a way that I guarantee I'll get an unblocked rusher. There should not be enough time for a QB to hang in the pocket and throw deep (unless you're playing press and they just throw up a shot, but why play press when you're anticipating something quick to be thrown - just sit on the route and drive it.) Perimeter screen game is effective against the 0 blitz stuff because of the run fits aspect of it. There has to be communication within the secondary as to when they are comboing coverage on receivers because of the picks that'll be set up by blocks in the perimeter screen game. The slip screens to the RBs rarely work against it because of Peel/Hug Up rules. Simply put, if you're an edge rusher you have peel rules on a RB meaning if he release to your side you have him man to man. If the back steps up to an interior gap (like he would on a slip screen) then whoever is responsible for that gap will "hug up" the runner and not allow him to release.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

The rules are the rules. They are simple in principle. You're correct that movement makes it a lot more complex which is why everyone has to be on the same page and rely on their rules. If I'm uncovered initially, but they stunt to where I am now covered I have to follow my rule. I'm sure Kromer does work to their strengths - a lot of that has more to do with how he's teaching individual technique stuff though more so than scheme.

 

As a defensive coordinator for many years, any time I call Man pressure's I am telling my coverage guys the ball has to come out quick because I'm bringing more than they can block and attacking their pass protection in a way that I guarantee I'll get an unblocked rusher. There should not be enough time for a QB to hang in the pocket and throw deep (unless you're playing press and they just throw up a shot, but why play press when you're anticipating something quick to be thrown - just sit on the route and drive it.) Perimeter screen game is effective against the 0 blitz stuff because of the run fits aspect of it. There has to be communication within the secondary as to when they are comboing coverage on receivers because of the picks that'll be set up by blocks in the perimeter screen game. The slip screens to the RBs rarely work against it because of Peel/Hug Up rules. Simply put, if you're an edge rusher you have peel rules on a RB meaning if he release to your side you have him man to man. If the back steps up to an interior gap (like he would on a slip screen) then whoever is responsible for that gap will "hug up" the runner and not allow him to release.

 

Or you are blitzing Josh Allen and he makes your unblocked defender look silly and escapes outside and then throws deep?  Would you still attempt to blitz Allen if you were a DC against him?

 

I have so many questions for you in regards to things as you obviously have huge amounts of knowledge the normal person does not...

 

Can I ask at what level you were a DC?  College I would assume?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[GoBills808]

How did that guy not get called for blocking below the waist on Brown smh

 

I thought that was a point of emphasis this year

[HoofHearted]

10 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Or you are blitzing Josh Allen and he makes your unblocked defender look silly and escapes outside and then throws deep?  Would you still attempt to blitz Allen if you were a DC against him?

 

I have so many questions for you in regards to things as you obviously have huge amounts of knowledge the normal person does not...

 

Can I ask at what level you were a DC?  College I would assume?

Well yeah, that's always the risk/reward you have to weigh based on who you're playing lol. 0 blitzing Josh or Lamar would scare the hell out of me. Much safer to send 5, attack the protection to where you can guarantee a 1 on 1 with a back, and play Cover 1 or Zone behind it. And yes, at the high school and college level.

[finn]

27 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

See my post 6 posts above yours with the link to the John Fina podcast and a play he talks about what is happening.

Yes, sorry about that. The hazards of not reading through the whole thread. I saw them after I posted and very much appreciated them. 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

When was the last regular RB screen that actually went for more than 5 yards?

 

 

 

 

Um, 6:20 in the 3rd quarter of the Ravens game. That's actually very recent. Singletary lines up in the backfield and the play goes for 14.

 

More, Orlovsky didn't say the Bills were one of the best "regular RB screen" teams. He said they were one of the best screen teams.

 

And with three screens in the 2nd half alone of the Ravens game (the one above, the one where Singletary lined up outside and the one to Shakir), each going for 14 yards, it would appear that Orlovsky is right just based on very recent evidence. I mean, the Bills threw 36 passes in this game, and in three screen passes from the 2nd half, they got 42 yards out of their total of 213 yards. That's 20% of their passing yardage on three plays, and I didn't even look at the 1st half to see if there were more screens there.

 

 

(I apologize, Turk, for that little dig. I have edited it out. I thought you were being sarcastic and see that you were serious. Sorry about that. Even more stupid there than I usually am.)

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Big Turk]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Well yeah, that's always the risk/reward you have to weigh based on who you're playing lol. 0 blitzing Josh or Lamar would scare the hell out of me. Much safer to send 5, attack the protection to where you can guarantee a 1 on 1 with a back, and play Cover 1 or Zone behind it. And yes, at the high school and college level.

 

Awesome!  So one thing I am curious about and something I have heard is that coverages are a lot more complex in the NFL than in college because in college based on NCAA rules you don't have as much practice time with the players as they do in the NFL. How much truth is there to that and what are some things that you would have liked to implement defensively that you couldn't because it would be too complex if there were any?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[Ramza86]

I mean....i just assumed those passes were option passes if the defense played soft on that formation.

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

Screens are most effective on plays where the defense blitzes. Teams now know that if you blitz us, Allen will evade the pressure and find a man downfield. If we want to defeat the Cover-2 shell that a lot of defenses are playing against us, we need to fix the run game.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

On the John Fina Off Tackle podcast yesterday, he showed why one of he run plays got blown up for a loss on an inside zone blocking play because of some details that were not done properly.  On the play based on how the defender was lined up, Saffold was supposed to chip him to slow him down for a split second before moving off his as he went to his right to execute his blocking assignment because Dawkins was charged with executing a reach block and without this chip there was no way Dawkins would have time to get that far over to make the block based on where the defender was lined up.  Saffold didn't chip the player, went to execute his block and as predicted Dawkins couldn't get there in time and the player ended up in the backfield to stuff Singletary for a 2 yard loss when if Saffold simply would have executed his assignment properly, there was a big lane to the left Singletary would have probably gotten at least 8 yards on since the 2 blockers downfield where in perfect position on their blocks and it was walled off.

 

Fina said this is the stuff that is hurting them, basically the players have to know the "rules" and execute them properly based on where defender is lined up sometimes and thy just have to know what they should be doing...ie, if this player lines up here then I have to do this first...they don't seem to either know all the rules yet or be able to figure out when those rules apply in a live game situation where they just have o be able to diagnose it in real time.

 

Here is Fina's explanation of he play described above as he talks about what is happening and what they should be doing versus what they actually did.

 

 

 

Thanks, for some reason the video link didn't come thru when I saw your original post.  Good stuff!

 

[BuffaloBill]

Bills using screens and dump offs as a replacement for the run game. 

[HoofHearted]

32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Awesome!  So one thing I am curious about and something I have heard is that coverages are a lot more complex in the NFL than in college because in college based on NCAA rules you don't have as much practice time with the players as they do in the NFL. How much truth is there to that and what are some things that you would have liked to implement defensively that you couldn't because it would be too complex if there were any?

IMO you're able to have more complex things in at the NFL level because they aren't teaching a ton of technique (for the most part). I think that's where the Bills have separated themselves from others in the NFL - they still focus on the fundamentals of the game and spend time working the little technique stuff whereas most teams expect guys to come in with the technique already developed and they focus solely on scheme. At the end of the day coverages are coverages - there's only so many ways you can slice an apple and still be sound. The complexity comes in how teams are able to disguise their coverages.

[Big Turk]

30 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

Screens are most effective on plays where the defense blitzes. Teams now know that if you blitz us, Allen will evade the pressure and find a man downfield. If we want to defeat the Cover-2 shell that a lot of defenses are playing against us, we need to fix the run game.

 

Bills have used the checkdowns/swing passes to Singletary and Moss out of the backfield effectively to pick up easy gains on many plays too

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Bills have used the checkdowns/swing passes to Singletary and Moss out of the backfield effectively to pick up easy gains on many plays too

I really hope James Cook becomes more of a threat in the short passing game. He has had too many drops for someone who was known as a receiving rb.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

IMO you're able to have more complex things in at the NFL level because they aren't teaching a ton of technique (for the most part). I think that's where the Bills have separated themselves from others in the NFL - they still focus on the fundamentals of the game and spend time working the little technique stuff whereas most teams expect guys to come in with the technique already developed and they focus solely on scheme. At the end of the day coverages are coverages - there's only so many ways you can slice an apple and still be sound. The complexity comes in how teams are able to disguise their coverages.

 

I found a site that has tons of actual playbooks in PDF formats from a bunch of NFL teams and college teams and am amazed at how much stuff there is to know and understand on every play for players and how the "rules" changed based on formations and personnel groupings...it opened up a whole new understanding of how players could be on the wrong page with each other during a game...

 

The complexity of some of this stuff is mind boggling to me...for example, these are from the Bills 2003 defensive playbook and are Greggo's "Pressure Packages" from his time here. Just looking at this one play for example, there are 8 different "versions" of this play based on personnel group and formation.  Now imagine having all these different "versions" to keep track of for every play you have to know.  And I am sure there are way more things to remember than just that...anyone who claims football players are dumb never read through one of these...there is no way you can be dumb and pick this stuff up, at least not very well.

 

 

 

https://www.footballxos.com/download/2003-buffalo-bills-regular-pressure-package-pdf/?wpdmdl=4541&refresh=6336ee7ccfa291664544380&ind=0&filename=2003-Buffalo-Bills-Regular-Pressure-Package.pdf

5 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

I really hope James Cook becomes more of a threat in the short passing game. He has had too many drops for someone who was known as a receiving rb.

 

I thought he showed well when he pressed into a WR role in Miami due to cramps/injuries in the 4th quarter...he ran some nice routes and made some catches for them.  Need more of that,

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I found a site that has tons of actual playbooks in PDF formats from a bunch of NFL teams and college teams and am amazed at how much stuff there is to know and understand on every play for players and how the "rules" changed based on formations and personnel groupings...it opened up a whole new understanding of how players could be on the wrong page with each other during a game...

 

The complexity of some of this stuff is mind boggling to me...for example, these are from the Bills 2003 defensive playbook and are Greggo's "Pressure Packages" from his time here. Just looking at this one play for example, there are 8 different "versions" of this play based on personnel group and formation.  Now imagine having all these different "versions" to keep track of for every play you have to know.  And I am sure there are way more things to remember than just that...anyone who claims football players are dumb never read through one of these...there is no way you can be dumb and pick this stuff up, at least not very well.

 

 

 

https://www.footballxos.com/download/2003-buffalo-bills-regular-pressure-package-pdf/?wpdmdl=4541&refresh=6336ee7ccfa291664544380&ind=0&filename=2003-Buffalo-Bills-Regular-Pressure-Package.pdf

Haha. That looks a lot more complex than what it actually is. When you break it down positionally it simplifies, but yes, things can get complex.

[Rockinon]

Singletary is #2 only behind Diggs in receptions, receiving yds. It appears to be working.