Orlovsky: Bills have become one of best screen teams

[GunnerBill]

We are good at wide receiver screens. That one at the end on Sunday was a WR screen even though it was to Singletary. We actually under Daboll ran the tight end screen to Knox quite nicely too and go back a couple of years and John Brown used to be good at the WR tunnel screens. What we are bad at is the conventional running back slip screen that, for example, Chan Gailey used to run brilliantly with Fred and CJ. And again more often than not when it fails it seems to be because of the OL. To execute a good slip screen your front side blockers have got to chip and then let the rushers go. If they just let them go straight away the risk is they get there too quickly. If they hold the block too long then the space that you are trying to slip the RB out into doesn't appear in time (what tends to happen for the Bills) and the QB ends up just having to ground it. 

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

I'm sorry I just couldn't take my eyes off of Bates blowing up his man...missed everything Orlovsky was saying.

 

Well then you're just going to love this. At 29:50

 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

I'm sorry I just couldn't take my eyes off of Bates blowing up his man...missed everything Orlovsky was saying.

 

Shakir really laid a nice block on his man as well there.  I was impressed.

 

If Shakir gets his shot with Crowder out, it could be a good thing for our bubble screens if he keeps that up.  He's 6', 190.

 

McKenzie is a willing blocker, but at 5'8" 170 there's only so much he can do.

 

Edit: I just looked it up, and Beasley was similar size and IMO less willing - perhaps this has some bearing on our difficulty with bubble screens.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Beck Water

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

But wait.....Jonathan Taylor would get yards and yards more behind our same OL, I read it right here

 

Seriously, I know the OL has bitten big time especially once Morse went out vs. Tennessee and was out for Miami (then the entire right side of the OL followed).  But is it limited to the OL?  I've seen plays where the timing was just off on Gilliam lead blocking and the blockers downfield whiffed as well, leading to a 3-4 yd gain instead of more.

Nothing is solely on one individual or group every time, but yes the OL hasn't been very good. Zone rules are not very complicated. If you're covered block the guy covering you, if you're uncovered you double the guy to the play side, depending on the leverage and front one of those two then works up to the backside backer. With a new OL coach it could be an issue of players still getting used to the new terminology and their communication is lacking or it could be that we don't have the players to run a predominately zone scheme. Ideally you'd like a bunch of maulers up front who can get push and work up to the second level. Outside of Dawkins and Saffold we got a bunch of dudes who are 310 or under, but they move well. Like last year, we're probably better off running more gap scheme stuff where we can get Morse, Bates, and Brown pulling and kicking and use Dawkins and Saffold to block down and just lean on guys. Shoot, even Dawkins looks good as a puller. You saw it last week in the third quarter when we ran G Lead - condensed the formation - pulled Dawkins - and Motor ran for almost 20 yards.

[NewEra]

53 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

We had a better WR screen game when John Brown was here...multiple long plays and/or TDs from the "Gold Rip" audible with him.  I would bet that is going to be Stevenson's role if he is activated to the roster from PUP as he brings a speed element they lack right now.

 

Again...the best screen game I have ever seen belonged to Chan Gailey and that was for all types...traditional screens, middle screens, WR screens....dude was a master at them.  It was a joy to watch.

Cook, Mckenzie and Shakir all ran faster 40’s than Stevenson. Stevenson is a long speed guy imo.  Screens are more burst than long speed.  I’d rather Diggs, cook, Mckenzie, shakir or Motor run screens rather than Stevenson.  
 

Stevensons speed may be the most overrated attribute on the team. Even with our injuries, I hope to never see him on the field as a Bill again. If we do see him, he’ll probably get injured within a few plays.  He’s weak.  
 

Stevensons hands are the size of my ____

[HoofHearted]

32 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

With Davis healthy and able to run his best and McKenzie available, sure.  I know that beautiful deep completion to Davis against LA had them re-thinking the Cover 0 concept.

 

But if you don't have the option of a couple deep threats, does that work very well?

 

 

The deep threat isn't really the thing I'd worried about - rarely are you going to have time to even get it off. We have dudes who can create separation at the LoS - that's the big key. Quick hitters that'll generate big YAC because everyone else on defense has their back turned.

[NewEra]

26 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

The OP play commentated by Orlovsky was screen to an RB.  

It was.  It was a WR screen though. 

[mikemac2001]

1 hour ago, wjag said:

REALLY!!!!!  Not unless we are redefining the screen play.

 

If throwing a quick out to the boundary is included.  Okay.

 

But if the traditional sweep of a QB dropping deep to suck in the DT/DLs while guards and linemen are setting up, then NO.  HELL NO.

That’s a WR screen - not all screens are RB screens 

 

they can’t run a rb screen vs those blitz types they will just stop and take out the RB so you need to attack with WR/TE/RB to the outside to get around that pressure 

 

you can see the release of lineman

[Beck Water]

16 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Nothing is solely on one individual or group every time, but yes the OL hasn't been very good. Zone rules are not very complicated. If you're covered block the guy covering you, if you're uncovered you double the guy to the play side, depending on the leverage and front one of those two then works up to the backside backer. With a new OL coach it could be an issue of players still getting used to the new terminology and their communication is lacking or it could be that we don't have the players to run a predominately zone scheme. Ideally you'd like a bunch of maulers up front who can get push and work up to the second level. Outside of Dawkins and Saffold we got a bunch of dudes who are 310 or under, but they move well. Like last year, we're probably better off running more gap scheme stuff where we can get Morse, Bates, and Brown pulling and kicking and use Dawkins and Saffold to block down and just lean on guys. Shoot, even Dawkins looks good as a puller. You saw it last week in the third quarter when we ran G Lead - condensed the formation - pulled Dawkins - and Motor ran for almost 20 yards.

 

So every OLman who has spoken to the press has raved about how Kromer works to a guy's strengths.  Why is he so determined on zone runs then?

 

As far as simple zone rules, doesn't it get a lot more complicated than that?  Since teams seem to be doing a lot of stunts and blitzes against us?  In theory, sure, he's in your area, block the guy, but if the body you expect to block goes elsewhere or there are several bodies, I know that's where communication about blocking schemes comes into it.

 

11 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

The deep threat isn't really the thing I'd worried about - rarely are you going to have time to even get it off. We have dudes who can create separation at the LoS - that's the big key. Quick hitters that'll generate big YAC because everyone else on defense has their back turned.

 

Isn't the deep pass to the center of the field one of the two canonical ways to defeat Cover 0 (yes, assuming you have protection and/or mobility to buy time for it), along with the screen pass?

 

Kollman did a nice thing on it a couple years back, do you disagree?

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

We are good at wide receiver screens. That one at the end on Sunday was a WR screen even though it was to Singletary. We actually under Daboll ran the tight end screen to Knox quite nicely too and go back a couple of years and John Brown used to be good at the WR tunnel screens. What we are bad at is the conventional running back slip screen that, for example, Chan Gailey used to run brilliantly with Fred and CJ. And again more often than not when it fails it seems to be because of the OL. To execute a good slip screen your front side blockers have got to chip and then let the rushers go. If they just let them go straight away the risk is they get there too quickly. If they hold the block too long then the space that you are trying to slip the RB out into doesn't appear in time (what tends to happen for the Bills) and the QB ends up just having to ground it. 

 

My recollection of slip screens last year is that we would tend to get flagged for a lineman too far downfield by the time Josh threw it.  But yeah that's just another aspect of the OL struggling with timing.

[Big Turk]

12 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Cook, Mckenzie and Shakir all ran faster 40’s than Stevenson. Stevenson is a long speed guy imo.  Screens are more burst than long speed.  I’d rather Diggs, cook, Mckenzie, shakir or Motor run screens rather than Stevenson.  
 

Stevensons speed may be the most overrated attribute on the team. Even with our injuries, I hope to never see him on the field as a Bill again. If we do see him, he’ll probably get injured within a few plays.  He’s weak.  
 

Stevensons hands are the size of my ____

 

I didn't realize Shakir runs a 4.43 40...Cook runs a 4.42 40...you are definitely right they could already be using them in that capacity so I am not sure why they haven't yet, or at least even tried.

 

I definitely hope we neve see Stevenson returning kicks again...I have never seen a player run full speed directly into blockers the way Stevenson did pretty much every return, to the point where you were afraid he was going to fumble because he would be up in the air and getting hit by defenders at the same time...it was like a car wreck waiting to happen where you just put your hand over your eyes and peer through a small slit in your fingers because you don't really want to watch but you can't look away either.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

It was.  It was a WR screen though. 

 

Yeah, I don't mean to be a pr*** and I'm "all in" for understanding folks don't always got the lingo 'cuz I'm there myself, but I wish if someone means something like "screen where the RB starts in the backfield" or "screen to receiver lined out wide" they would just say so instead of trying to call it a "normal screen" or a "standard screen" or even a "WR screen" since I think these days those bubble screens are thrown to RB quite often.   Maybe that's just my own personal nit.

[Big Turk]

26 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Nothing is solely on one individual or group every time, but yes the OL hasn't been very good. Zone rules are not very complicated. If you're covered block the guy covering you, if you're uncovered you double the guy to the play side, depending on the leverage and front one of those two then works up to the backside backer. With a new OL coach it could be an issue of players still getting used to the new terminology and their communication is lacking or it could be that we don't have the players to run a predominately zone scheme. Ideally you'd like a bunch of maulers up front who can get push and work up to the second level. Outside of Dawkins and Saffold we got a bunch of dudes who are 310 or under, but they move well. Like last year, we're probably better off running more gap scheme stuff where we can get Morse, Bates, and Brown pulling and kicking and use Dawkins and Saffold to block down and just lean on guys. Shoot, even Dawkins looks good as a puller. You saw it last week in the third quarter when we ran G Lead - condensed the formation - pulled Dawkins - and Motor ran for almost 20 yards.

 

I seem to remember the run game really flourishing once Bates came in last year and Brown demolishing people in the run game and sometimes multiple defenders on the same play.  Why are they so hell bent on running zone schemes when they already tried it last year and it didn't work and they saw this line was at least somewhat decent at running gap schemes? I know Kromer is a very good OLine coach and the zone schemes we ran under him when he was here last time led to us being one of the best rushing teams in the NFL, but if we don't have players that are good at executing it, why not just change it to a gap scheme and call it a day?

 

Also why do they keep trying to run inside zone when they are terrible at it, but are actually pretty good at running to the edges or running toss sweeps and have had multiple long gains on them this year?  Why are they not running more of those?  They keep bringing in tight formations and trying to run these read option out of them and they are not good at them...defenders are in the backfield before the RB even gets the ball half the time.  I know there is a conflict defender that is the "read" player that is unblocked but many times there are multiple players in the backfield where guys are just getting blown by and the play has no prayer of working.  Bills seem much better running when they spread things out rather than bring things in tight and bring more people to the box.  Are they doing this because they are so good at throwing out of these tight formations for easy big big plays off play action that they have to at least show the same play as a run so defenses can't know a pass is coming when they are lined up that way?

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[Warriorspikes51]

This is encouraging. I would like to see more deep shots on a weekly basis.  

[Big Turk]

28 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So every OLman who has spoken to the press has raved about how Kromer works to a guy's strengths.  Why is he so determined on zone runs then?

 

As far as simple zone rules, doesn't it get a lot more complicated than that?  Since teams seem to be doing a lot of stunts and blitzes against us?  In theory, sure, he's in your area, block the guy, but if the body you expect to block goes elsewhere or there are several bodies, I know that's where communication about blocking schemes comes into it.

 

 

Isn't the deep pass to the center of the field one of the two canonical ways to defeat Cover 0 (yes, assuming you have protection and/or mobility to buy time for it), along with the screen pass?

 

Kollman did a nice thing on it a couple years back, do you disagree?

 

 

 

On the John Fina Off Tackle podcast yesterday, he showed why one of he run plays got blown up for a loss on an inside zone blocking play because of some details that were not done properly.  On the play based on how the defender was lined up, Saffold was supposed to chip him to slow him down for a split second before moving off his as he went to his right to execute his blocking assignment because Dawkins was charged with executing a reach block and without this chip there was no way Dawkins would have time to get that far over to make the block based on where the defender was lined up.  Saffold didn't chip the player, went to execute his block and as predicted Dawkins couldn't get there in time and the player ended up in the backfield to stuff Singletary for a 2 yard loss when if Saffold simply would have executed his assignment properly, there was a big lane to the left Singletary would have probably gotten at least 8 yards on since the 2 blockers downfield where in perfect position on their blocks and it was walled off.

 

Fina said this is the stuff that is hurting them, basically the players have to know the "rules" and execute them properly based on where defender is lined up sometimes and thy just have to know what they should be doing...ie, if this player lines up here then I have to do this first...they don't seem to either know all the rules yet or be able to figure out when those rules apply in a live game situation where they just have o be able to diagnose it in real time.

 

Here is Fina's explanation of he play described above as he talks about what is happening and what they should be doing versus what they actually did.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[Beck Water]

20 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I seem to remember the run game really flourishing once Bates came in last year and Brown demolishing people in the run game and sometimes multiple defenders on the same play.  Why are they so hell bent on running zone schemes when they already tried it last year and it didn't work and they saw this line was at least somewhat decent at running gap schemes? I know Kromer is a very good OLine coach and the zone schemes we ran under him when he was here last time led to us being one of the best rushing teams in the NFL, but if we don't have players that are good at executing it, why not just change it to a gap scheme and call it a day?

 

We have the identical question in our minds here (edit: about zone vs gap)

 

You're right about the run game improving late in the season, although the improvement arguably precedes Boettger's injury.  He was injured in Week 16, and the Bills started notching some more respectable run games after the Jags debacle....

 

I will say that I think our run game improved last season when we started to bring in first Bates and then (after Boettger went down) Doyle as an extra blocker instead of a TE, and using a fullback.  We actually ended the season 8% in (1,2) and 10% (2,1) and even a double handful of (2,2) sets, which is basically double what we ran the previous season according to Sharp Football Stats, which is the only free site with this stuff that I know of .... would love to hear of others

 

There's some confusion based on whether they count Gilliam as a TE or a FB, but the point is, we started bringing in an extra blocker or two so that we could run.

 

Against Baltimore, we were not using an extra lineman or 2 TE sets, and only used Gilliam on a handful of plays.  So maybe Dorsey came into the game just expecting to not run very much?  Why try it at critical times then, like 3rd and 1 early in the 2nd Q where we totally got blown up?  Very puzzling play calling to me, there.

 

Against Miami, we had no extra linemen to use, of course.

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Beck Water

[Buffalo Junction]

Another issue with more traditional screens like the the slip screen is how defenses prepare for Allen. They often place a lot of emphasis on maintaining contain, utilize more zone coverage, keep a spy at the second level, etc. This puts them in an advantageous position for defending against deception off the edges. Allen has burned too many teams with his legs for rushers to just pin their ears back and assume the blood in the water isn’t chum. 

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

On the John Fina Off Tackle podcast yesterday, he showed why one of he run plays got blown up for a lo on an inside zone blocking play because of some details that were not done properly.  On the play based on how the defender was lined up, Saffold was supposed to chip him to slow him down for a split second before moving off his as he went to his right to execute his blocking assignment because Dawkins was charged with executing a reach block and without this chip there was no way Dawkins would have time to get that far over to make the block based on where the defender was lined up.  Saffold didn't chip the player, went to execute his block and as predicted Dawkins couldn't get there in time and the player ended up in the backfield to stuff Singletary for a 2 yard loss when if Saffold simply would have executed his assignment properly, there was a big lane to the left Singletary would have probably gotten at least 8 yards on since the 2 blockers downfield where in perfect position on their blocks and it was walled off.

 

Fina said this is the stuff that is hurting them, basically the players have no know the "rules" and execute them properly based on where defender is lined up sometimes and thy just have to know what they should be doing...ie, if this player lines up here then I have to do this first...they don't seem to either know all the rules yet or be able to figure out when those rules apply in a live game situation where they just have o be able to diagnose it in real time.

 

Good stuff, Thanks....not sure if it's you or someone else, but I've seen several references to Fina's podcast so I probably need to start giving it a listen.   Is it just voice or does he show film?  And where do I find it?

 

Someone else, I'm not sure who, commented on communication and details needing some time to gel, but it seems to support my notion that it's a bit more complex, that who you chip or pass off (and how you do it) can vary quite a lot depending upon the play call and the defensive "special sauce"

Edited October 5, 2022 by Beck Water

[Big Turk]

20 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good stuff, Thanks....not sure if it's you or someone else, but I've seen several references to Fina's podcast so I probably need to start giving it a listen.   Is it just voice or does he show film?  And where do I find it?

 

Someone else, I'm not sure who, commented on communication and details needing some time to gel, but it seems to support my notion that it's a bit more complex, that who you chip or pass off (and how you do it) can vary quite a lot depending upon the play call and the defensive "special sauce"

 

Nope, it's a video podcast with him and a dude called "The Voice" that is the host of the show. You can subscribe to it on Youtube, it's every Tuesday during the season.  He breaks down a lot of stuff in depth in regards to offensive line play, etc.  Last week Jerry Ostrowski filled in for him and broke down how Van Roten was responsible for the sack/fumble against the Dolphins both for telegraphing the snap count AND by snapping the ball so quickly after he gave a "head turn" signal that he was snapping it to the other OL that Dawkins wasn't even ready for the snap.  A lot of stuff that you never hear talked about and how simple things like that can be thing that causes a huge play against you.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[finn]

1 hour ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

That is pretty funny, because that used to be one of our biggest weaknesses. I have heard some analysts saying that the short pass and screen game has basically replaced our running game. I tend to agree for the most part.

 

I'd like to see more analysis of why the run game keeps getting blown up. The Atlantic pins the blame mostly on Saffold and Bates, with weak play by Van Roten and missed blocks by the tight ends thrown in. Saffold in particular appears to be a liability. He either whiffs or gets stood up and the back runs into him. I wonder if the Bills will make a change at the bye week, maybe move Bates back to left guard, where evidently he's more comfortable, and plugging someone into the right guard spot. Not sure when Boettger is due back, but he's a possibility. Hart and Quessenberry are more tackles, but they can't do much worse than Saffold. Maybe the new guy, Jordan Simmons?