Inigo Montoya Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Allen is almost impossible to stop on short yardage when he rolls out. I think Dorsey has been trying to get the backs involved in short yardage, and Moss seemed to do well with it in the preseason, but during the regular season the backs are getting stoned in the backfield. The O-line is just not getting any push at all and we are more likely to lose a yard than gain one when the backs get the handoff. It was 4th and 1 at the Ravens 26 yard line yesterday. Josh rolled out to his left and there were defenders there prepared for the roll out and it looked like he might get tackled for a loss. Josh did some of his shifty Elvis hips stuff and managed to cut the ball up avoiding the defenders and got 4 yards and the 1st down. Josh is way to big to be as slippery as he is running the ball. Even if a defender gets his hands on Josh he can usually bull forward and drag the defender for a yard or two. Allen's speed, agility, and strength make him very hard to bring down when he gets a head of steam moving along the line of scrimmage and then decides to cut it up. These Allen roll outs were the most successful method for the team to convert short yardage last season, and despite Dorsey's best efforts, were in the same boat again this year. It's not optimal to have our QB be the short yardage back too, but when the Bills really need to move the ball a yard, rolling Allen out is the best option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 You are unfortunately correct sir. A quick hitter to Gilliam is the only other running play I remember picking up a 4th down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Agree but it's not sustainable because of the injury risk and predictability factor. Still think Singletary can be a short yardage work horse if they give up this whole Zack Moss power back fantasy. Also why not give Gilliam the ball on 3rd or 4th and short? He seems like he could be a viable option there as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffBillsForLife Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 And yet, failed runs up the gut by Zack Moss are still the go-to play on 3rd and 1. The QB sneak is no longer in the playbook despite our QB being built like a greek god. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 This is a real problem fand is the only true weakness on this team but a potentially costly one. I have very little confidence that on short yardage situations that the team can get the push that it needs to consistently get first downs running the ball with their RB's. They either have to somehow get this fixed during the course of the year or look at alternative ways to get the yards needed. Having Allen does afford a lot of other viable alternatives but having your meats and potatoes approach of smashing it ahead for a yard or two should be your #1 option and without that option it can create problems. I'm certain in the offseason the Bills will draft a couple O-linemen in the early to early mid round picks but have to figure out a way around it for this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloMatt Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 I am uncertain why they don't sneak it more. Anybody know the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Bills are not great in power situations, but they aren't as bad as I would have expected... They convert 56% of the time, league average is 63%. Also, rank 21st in stuff percentage, at 21% of the time, based on the eye test would have expected us to be dead last with that as well. Seems like the RBs are always having to make someone miss in the backfield when they get the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruffalo Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said: Agree but it's not sustainable because of the injury risk and predictability factor. Still think Singletary can be a short yardage work horse if they give up this whole Zack Moss power back fantasy. Also why not give Gilliam the ball on 3rd or 4th and short? He seems like he could be a viable option there as well. They don't even try Singletary on 4th and short and I don't really understand why. Moss, who is just worse than Singletary in pretty much everything, still has the coaching staff's trust in those situations. It doesn't make any sense, because he's the reason they're in that situation in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 minute ago, BuffBillsForLife said: The QB sneak is no longer in the playbook Since the Tenn game last year this has been an issue, maybe longer. This used to be automatic and now they can't get a push. Brady still does it at 450 years old. The OL need to man up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 1 minute ago, Bruffalo said: They don't even try Singletary on 4th and short and I don't really understand why. Moss, who is just worse than Singletary in pretty much everything, still has the coaching staff's trust in those situations. It doesn't make any sense, because he's the reason they're in that situation in the first place. When you think about it Singletary would be perfect for short yardage because he's a smallish back that can slip through the oline, and has more than enough power to his game. This is why I still don't trust McD, horrendous personel decisions and yes your are right about Zack Moss being terrible at everything. It's simply time to move on and make him inactive or just release him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said: When you think about it Singletary would be perfect for short yardage because he's a smallish back that can slip through the oline, and has more than enough power to his game. This is why I still don't trust McD, horrendous personel decisions and yes your are right about Zack Moss being terrible at everything. It's simply time to move on and make him inactive or just release him. It does not matter who the back is - teams stack the line and they push our linemen back. 14 minutes ago, BuffaloMatt said: I am uncertain why they don't sneak it more. Anybody know the answer? Wasn't our last offensive play this week a QB sneak? 15 minutes ago, Magox said: This is a real problem fand is the only true weakness on this team but a potentially costly one. I have very little confidence that on short yardage situations that the team can get the push that it needs to consistently get first downs running the ball with their RB's. They either have to somehow get this fixed during the course of the year or look at alternative ways to get the yards needed. Having Allen does afford a lot of other viable alternatives but having your meats and potatoes approach of smashing it ahead for a yard or two should be your #1 option and without that option it can create problems. I'm certain in the offseason the Bills will draft a couple O-linemen in the early to early mid round picks but have to figure out a way around it for this year. The problem on 4th and 1 is a drop is a turnover. So passing is always a bit riskier. I don't have faith in the offensive lines ability to run block literally any type of run call. Seems like crack tosses have worked, and some pin and pull type of stuff. But thats not usualy what you want to do when you need a yard. Add jet motion, hand some balls to mckenzie going laterally and get them questioning it so they aren't just pushing our guys back. Add a hard count. Edited October 4, 2022 by Bleeding Bills Blue 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted October 4, 2022 Author Share Posted October 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: It does not matter who the back is - teams stack the line and they push our linemen back. Wasn't our last offensive play this week a QB sneak? You're right, it was, but the Ravens were trying to let Allen score so they could get the ball back with enough time on the clock to do something. Allen just fell forward past the line of gain and got a fresh set of downs to run the clock out with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 7 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: It does not matter who the back is - teams stack the line and they push our linemen back. Wasn't our last offensive play this week a QB sneak? The problem on 4th and 1 is a drop is a turnover. So passing is always a bit riskier. I don't have faith in the offensive lines ability to run block literally any type of run call. Seems like crack tosses have worked, and some pin and pull type of stuff. But thats not usualy what you want to do when you need a yard. Add jet motion, hand some balls to mckenzie going laterally and get them questioning it so they aren't just pushing our guys back. Add a hard count. I agree, they are going to have to mix it up and disguise looks and formations, switch up snap counts all sorts of things but at the end of the day they have to to be able to run the ball some with their RB's with some sort of level of success. Have to find a way to get the opposing teams linemen to not just fire off and push the O line back into the backfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 26 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said: Allen is almost impossible to stop on short yardage when he rolls out. I think Dorsey has been trying to get the backs involved in short yardage, and Moss seemed to do well with it in the preseason, but during the regular season the backs are getting stoned in the backfield. The O-line is just not getting any push at all and we are more likely to lose a yard than gain one when the backs get the handoff. It was 4th and 1 at the Ravens 26 yard line yesterday. Josh rolled out to his left and there were defenders there prepared for the roll out and it looked like he might get tackled for a loss. Josh did some of his shifty Elvis hips stuff and managed to cut the ball up avoiding the defenders and got 4 yards and the 1st down. Josh is way to big to be as slippery as he is running the ball. Even if a defender gets his hands on Josh he can usually bull forward and drag the defender for a yard or two. Allen's speed, agility, and strength make him very hard to bring down when he gets a head of steam moving along the line of scrimmage and then decides to cut it up. These Allen roll outs were the most successful method for the team to convert short yardage last season, and despite Dorsey's best efforts, were in the same boat again this year. It's not optimal to have our QB be the short yardage back too, but when the Bills really need to move the ball a yard, rolling Allen out is the best option. I was yelling at the tv all game on Sunday to get Allen out of the pocket on more plays. The RPO is their bread and butter and they seemed reluctant to go with it for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Here’s the thing. Allen is better scrambling then designed runs IMO. I don’t like when we run Allen on short yards. Forget short yardage runs. Run a normal pass play on short yardage and if it’s not there let Allen make a play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorin' Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 23 minutes ago, BuffBillsForLife said: And yet, failed runs up the gut by Zack Moss are still the go-to play on 3rd and 1. The QB sneak is no longer in the playbook despite our QB being built like a greek god. In fairness, Josh converted the game sealing 1st down with a QB sneak. Maybe they had the yips calling it after losing the Titans game last year on it? I'm still shocked we didn't use it to win the Miami game. Even with the #3 center in the game... 2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Here’s the thing. Allen is better scrambling then designed runs IMO. I don’t like when we run Allen on short yards. Forget short yardage runs. Run a normal pass play on short yardage and if it’s not there let Allen make a play. Accept QB Power from shotgun with pulling Olineman leading the way. I don't really want to see that play until the playoffs, but that is his best called running play imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, Motorin' said: In fairness, Josh converted the game sealing 1st down with a QB sneak. Maybe they had the yips calling it after losing the Titans game last year on it? I'm still shocked we didn't use it to win the Miami game. Even with the #3 center in the game... Accept QB Power from shotgun with pulling Olineman leading the way. I don't really want to see that play until the playoffs, but that is his best called running play imo. QB power is good. I would still rather just run a normal pass play. Take my chances with Josh making a completion or getting a yard on a scramble. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) Ideally, one of our first two picks in the draft is a massive mauler for the OL. Edited October 4, 2022 by Bangarang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Groot was a WR in high school, give him a handoff and let's see if he can plow forward for a 1st down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevyVanMiller Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) Here's a great article on the probability of picking up a first down on 3rd or 4th and 1 yard situations. A QB sneak is far and away the best option. A FB quick hitter is the only other option that has a good success rate. Handing the ball off to Zach Moss did not chart. https://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down Edited October 4, 2022 by ChevyVanMiller 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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