What is "out of bounds" in the NFL?

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I swear there are 15 different rules on what constitutes going out of bounds and where a ball is spotted.  For example:

 

1) Today Lamar extends the ball before stepping out of bounds. Where he lands out of bounds is well past the line of gain. But he's deemed short because (I'm guessing here) the ball broke the plane of the sideline behind the line of gain?

 

However...

 

2) A wide receiver is considered catching a ball inbounds as long as two feet are inbounds, even if the ball is obviously thrown out of bounds.

 

3) Someone can score a TD, even if the ball is held out of bounds outside the pylon, as long as they cross goal line extended.

 

The NFL can't even agree what inbounds and out of bounds are.

 

I think some of your details are wrong.

1.  Yes, it's not his body it's where the ball is.

2.  If a WR catches a ball "outside the boundary" of the sidelines. it's a catch where the ball is in relation to the ball and the sideline.

Example.  If a WR's BODY is across the goal line but he stretches to catch the ball inside the field of play (the half yard line),

it's spotted at the half yard line.

3.  That's not true.  The pylon is considered the goal line.  If a runner extends the ball on the outside of the pylon it is not a TD.

[chongli]

3 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I found it. The ball itself has to touch out of bounds to make the player out of bounds... BUT when a player goes out of bounds, the spot is placed where the ball crossed out of bounds.

 

Item 2. Runner Out of Bounds. If the ball is in player possession when that player goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is

the forward point of the ball when the ball crosses the side line, or, if the ball does not cross the sideline, the forward point of the

ball at the instant the player is out of bounds.

 

Yep. Perfect. This is what I found too:

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/6_Rule3_Definitions.pdf

 

"Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the spot where the ball crossed a sideline. However, if a ball, while still within a boundary line, is declared out of bounds because of touching anything that is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is on the yard line through the spot of the ball at the instant of such touching."

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I think some of your details are wrong.

1.  Yes, it's not his body it's where the ball is.

2.  If a WR catches a ball "outside the boundary" of the sidelines. it's a catch where the ball is in relation to the ball and the sideline.

Example.  If a WR's BODY is across the goal line but he stretches to catch the ball inside the field of play (the half yard line),

it's spotted at the half yard line.

3.  That's not true.  The pylon is considered the goal line.  If a runner extends the ball on the outside of the pylon it is not a TD.

 

3 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Yep. Perfect. This is what I found too:

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/6_Rule3_Definitions.pdf

 

"Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the spot where the ball crossed a sideline. However, if a ball, while still within a boundary line, is declared out of bounds because of touching anything that is out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is on the yard line through the spot of the ball at the instant of such touching."

 

Okay. That's settled.

[NoSaint]

Honestly promo, most of its not particularly confusing if you try to understand the underlying concepts instead of treating everything as individual examples and complaining 

[Motorin']

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

 

Okay. That's settled.

 

If the spot is determined by where the ball crosses the sideline, then a play could happen where a wr catches the ball laid out at the sticks, and if the ball crosses out of bounds before the 1st down marker the spot should be moved back and there's no first down. 

[frostbitmic]

Out of bounds is open for interpretation.

[fasteddie]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

If the spot is determined by where the ball crosses the sideline, then a play could happen where a wr catches the ball laid out at the sticks, and if the ball crosses out of bounds before the 1st down marker the spot should be moved back and there's no first down. 

Correct

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

If it's so simple why are the rules different in the other two examples I cited, especially being able to score a TD despite holding the ball outside of the pylon?

 

You can only do that if the body is in bounds still.

 

It is really not that difficult.

 

If the player is in bounds and the ball is in their hand - the ball is in bounds.

 

Once the player leaves the field of play - Ala Lamar on the run - where the ball crosses the sideline after their last in play position is where the ball is spotted.  
 

It was done for 2 reasons - one to give the Refs better visibility to a yard marker to better spot the ball and to prevent these head first dives that the defense can’t defend against because the player is out of bounds.  
 

Players used to run and then dive out of bounds and where they landed is where they spotted the ball, but in protecting players from hits - you can’t hit a player out of bounds - so they adjusted the rules to balance that.  
 

Once a player leaves the field of play - the spot the ball crosses out of bound is where it is marked - that is why the player must get the ball to at minimal hit the pylon if they are diving along the sideline.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

17 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

If the spot is determined by where the ball crosses the sideline, then a play could happen where a wr catches the ball laid out at the sticks, and if the ball crosses out of bounds before the 1st down marker the spot should be moved back and there's no first down. 

 

Nope because for it to be a catch - the player must be in bounds.  If the player is in bounds then that is where the ball is spotted.  
 

It is just like a RB on the sideline - the ball while he is running can go out of bounds as long as the runner stays in bounds.  Once the player gets hit or leaves his feet - if he does not come down in bound again - then where the ball crossed out of bounds is where it should be marked.

 

The sideline only comes into play when the player is no longer established in bounds.  The ball is marked based upon the player being in bound at their last spot on the sideline. 
 

It is why a pass does not have to be in the field of play to be a TD or a catch.  It has to be thrown by a guy in the field of play and the receiver must be established in the field of play - then it is a completion regardless if the ball is in the field of play or not.

 

 

[Motorin']

3 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Nope because for it to be a catch - the player must be in bounds.  If the player is in bounds then that is where the ball is spotted.  
 

It is just like a RB on the sideline - the ball while he is running can go out of bounds as long as the runner stays in bounds.  Once the player gets hit or leaves his feet - if he does not come down in bound again - then where the ball crossed out of bounds is where it should be marked.

 

The sideline only comes into play when the player is no longer established in bounds.  The ball is marked based upon the player being in bound at their last spot on the sideline. 
 

It is why a pass does not have to be in the field of play to be a TD or a catch.  It has to be thrown by a guy in the field of play and the receiver must be established in the field of play - then it is a completion regardless if the ball is in the field of play or not.

 

 

 

In the example I forgot to mention that I was assuming the player stretching out of bounds to make the catch and would touch out of bounds within moments of making the catch. 

 

Why wouldn't the spot be determined by where the ball crossed out of bounds for a receiver catching the ball who goes out of bounds? 

 

[chongli]

3 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

In the example I forgot to mention that I was assuming the player stretching out of bounds to make the catch and would touch out of bounds within moments of making the catch. 

 

Why wouldn't the spot be determined by where the ball crossed out of bounds for a receiver catching the ball who goes out of bounds? 

 

 

Maybe I am reading your post wrong, but if a receiver catches the ball inbounds, he becomes a runner after the catch become legal. So if he then dove out of bounds to reach the first-down marker, the ball would be spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, just like in the Lamar Jackson play today. But if he catches the ball but his first contact with the ground is out of bounds, then it is not a catch.

Edited October 3, 2022 by chongli

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

In the example I forgot to mention that I was assuming the player stretching out of bounds to make the catch and would touch out of bounds within moments of making the catch. 

 

Why wouldn't the spot be determined by where the ball crossed out of bounds for a receiver catching the ball who goes out of bounds? 

 

Because for it to be a catch he must be established in bounds with 2 feet down or a knee, butt, leg, anything that establishes a catch.  And therefore that is the last spot the the player was inbound - which is the first part of marking the ball - even if he is heading out of bounds or landing immediately out of bounds.

 

Additionally the ball does not have to leave the field of play to be out of bounds.  If a player is out of bounds and touches the ball - the ball is considered out of bounds even if it is still 6 feet in bounds.  A guy can fumble and if a player has a toe out of bound - lies down and hit the ball - it is a dead ball at that point.  Same with a kick off.

 

The first rule of spotting is alway with the player - where is the player in bounds on the field.  Once the player gives up being in bound by leaving his feet and landing out of bounds - the next marking is the spot the ball leaves the field of play. 
 

 

[MJS]

The rules are clear. They aren't even remotely confusing.

[chongli]

6 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Additionally the ball does not have to leave the field of play to be out of bounds.  If a player is out of bounds and touches the ball - the ball is considered out of bounds even if it is still 6 feet in bounds.  A guy can fumble and if a player has a toe out of bound - lies down and hit the ball - it is a dead ball at that point.  Same with a kick off.

 

Yep, a smart play I have seen some players do is if the ball from a kickoff is rolling close to the sideline, but won't go out, the return man stands out of bounds and then picks up the ball. The ball is then considered a kickoff out of bounds, a penalty flag is thrown, and the receiving team gets awarded big yardage.

Edited October 3, 2022 by chongli

[Motorin']

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Because for it to be a catch he must be established in bounds with 2 feet down or a knee, butt, leg, anything that establishes a catch.  And therefore that is the last spot the the player was inbound - which is the first part of marking the ball - even if he is heading out of bounds or landing immediately out of bounds.

 

Additionally the ball does not have to leave the field of play to be out of bounds.  If a player is out of bounds and touches the ball - the ball is considered out of bounds even if it is still 6 feet in bounds.  A guy can fumble and if a player has a toe out of bound - lies down and hit the ball - it is a dead ball at that point.  Same with a kick off.

 

The first rule of spotting is alway with the player - where is the player in bounds on the field.  Once the player gives up being in bound by leaving his feet and landing out of bounds - the next marking is the spot the ball leaves the field of play. 
 

 

 

11 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Maybe I am reading your post wrong, but if a receiver catches the ball inbounds, he becomes a runner after the catch become legal. So if he then dove out of bounds to reach the first-down marker, the ball would be spotted where the ball crossed the sideline, just like in the Lamar Jackson play today. But if he catches the ball but his first contact with the ground is out of bounds, then it is not a catch.

 

He's past the first down marker, both feet are touching the ground, but he's talking out of bounds bc the pass is already a yard out of bounds. And the ball crossed out of bounds a yard before the first down marker. 

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

 

He's past the first down marker, both feet are touching the ground, but he's talking out of bounds bc the pass is already a yard out of bounds. And the ball crossed out of bounds a yard before the first down marker. 

 

 

 

Again it simply does not matter because for it to be a catch the player MUST BE IN THE FIELD OF PLAY.

 

This is not rocket science.  It does not matter where the ball is because the player is in bounds to make it a legal catch.

 

The only time the ball being out of the field of play matters is when the person possessing the ball leaves the field of play and lands out of bounds.  And even then - the sideline only matters it the ball leaves the field of play after the possessor of the ball leaves the field of play and before he lands out of bounds.

 

In you example - the ball would be marked where he caught the ball and was established in bounds.  For example - he dives and has both toes down and catches the at the 35 - the ball is a 3 yards out of bounds, but it would be spotted where he was in bounds.  If he was a yard short - he could not make the catch and as he is falling out of bound - extend his arm forward trying to get the extra yard because he is no longer established in bounds.

 

 

[chongli]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

 

He's past the first down marker, both feet are touching the ground, but he's talking out of bounds bc the pass is already a yard out of bounds. And the ball crossed out of bounds a yard before the first down marker. 

 

 

 

So when and where does he catch the ball? Both his feet need to land in bounds with possession of the ball and a football move then needs to be made for it to be a catch. If he caught it with both feet in bounds and gets legal possession he then becomes a runner. But if he didn't make a football move after the catch, and this catch takes him out of bounds while dragging his feet, then I don't think it's a legal catch because no football move has been made. Maybe I am wrong.

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Again it simply does not matter because for it to be a catch the player MUST BE IN THE FIELD OF PLAY.

 

This is not rocket science.  It does not matter where the ball is because the player is in bounds to make it a legal catch.

 

The only time the ball being out of the field of play matters is when the person possessing the ball leaves the field of play and lands out of bounds.  And even then - the sideline only matters it the ball leaves the field of play after the possessor of the ball leaves the field of play and before he lands out of bounds.

 

In you example - the ball would be marked where he caught the ball and was established in bounds.  For example - he dives and has both toes down and catches the at the 35 - the ball is a 3 yards out of bounds, but it would be spotted where he was in bounds.  If he was a yard short - he could not make the catch and as he is falling out of bound - extend his arm forward trying to get the extra yard because he is no longer established in bounds.

 

 

 

That's just not how's it written in the NFL rule book, and I've spent too many precious minutes already looking at it tonight 😂

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, chongli said:

 

So when and where does he catch the ball? Both his feet need to land in bounds with possession of the ball and a football move then needs to be made for it to be a catch. If he caught it with both feet in bounds and gets legal possession he then becomes a runner. But if he didn't make a football move after the catch, and this catch takes him out of bounds while dragging his feet, then I don't think it's a legal catch because no football move has been made. Maybe I am wrong.

 

But where is the ball spotted? At the receivers feet or at the yard marker the ball was caught at?

[Rochesterfan]

1 minute ago, chongli said:

 

So when and where does he catch the ball? Both his feet need to land in bounds with possession of the ball and a football move then needs to be made for it to be a catch. If he caught it with both feet in bounds and gets legal possession he then becomes a runner. But if he didn't make a football move after the catch, and this catch takes him out of bounds while dragging his feet, then I don't think it's a legal catch because no football move has been made. Maybe I am wrong.

 

If he drags his feet in bounds - he does not have to make a football move - he just has to maintain control of the ball through the action of going to the ground.

 

His feet being down in bounds with possession- establishes the marker of where he is.  The action of the catch is completed by maintaining the control through the ground in this case because he was diving.

 

He needs 2 feet down, or a knee, butt, lower leg, anything that counts for establishing the in bound portion and then maintain control to the ground.