Before there were kneel downs...interesting old school clock killing methods

[Big Turk]

Heard this on WGR this afternoon while driving and had to look it up...

 

 

Go to around 1:52:30 or so to see the part I am referring to..

 

This game between the Bengals and Oilers in 1980 was mentioned where the Oilers were trying to kill the clock to end the game but it was during the transition from always doing QB sneaks or dive plays into the line to try and end the game to kneel downs and the Oilers looked like they had no idea how to go about this...this was after the famous incident where Herm Edwards scored a TD on a fumble return to win the game where their opponent was trying to run out the clock in 1978 I believe. Teams began experimenting with different clock killing methods but some were better than others.

 

On first down, Stabler hands off to the RB who literally just stands there and doesn't move until he is tackled by the Bengals. On second down, Stabler gets the snap and literally flops down like there is a fumble and he is diving after it. On third down they do the handoff again and again the RB stands there and doesn't move until he gets nailed by the D.

 

They end up not killing the clock and giving Cincy the ball back after a punt with 30 seconds left, who almost got down to FG range to attempt to tie the game. Oilers led 13-10.

 

I had never really thought about this before...that victory formation and kneel downs wasn't fully accepted until the mid to late 80s and each team kind of did their own thing in late game situations where they had the lead.

 

A reminder that what we take for granted now was an adventure back in the day before kneeldowns and victory formation were standard.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Big Turk

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Heard this on WGR this afternoon while driving and had to look it up...

 

 

Go to around 1:52:30 or so to see the part I am referring to..

 

This game between the Bengals and Oilers in 1980 was mentioned where the Oilers were trying to kill the clock to end the game but it was during the transition from always doing QB sneaks or dive plays into the line to try and end the game to kneel downs and the Oilers looked like they had no idea how to go about this...this was after the famous incident where Herm Edwards scored a TD on a fumble return to win the game where their opponent was trying to run out the clock in 1978 I believe. Teams began experimenting with different clock killing methods but some were better than others.

 

On first down, Stabler hands off to the RB who literally just stands there and doesn't move until he is tackled by the Bengals. On second down, Stabler gets the snap and literally flops down like there is a fumble and he is diving after it. On third down they do the handoff again and again the RB stands there and doesn't move until he gets nailed by the D.

 

They end up not killing the clock and giving Cincy the ball back after a punt with 30 seconds left, who almost got down to FG range to attempt to tie the game. Oilers led 13-10.

 

I had never really thought about this before...that victory formation and kneel downs wasn't fully accepted until the mid to late 80s and each team kind of did their own thing in late game situations where they had the lead.

 

 

Is the fumble you talking about by Joe Pisarcik?

[Buffalo716]

That’s football 

 

kneel downs are absolutely recent in the 140 year sport of football 

 

it was never a thought in the 70s and before 

[Big Turk]

Just now, Marvin said:

Is the fumble you talking about by Joe Pisarcik?

 

Yes! But this game I am referencing happened like 2 years later and teams apparently still didn't have kneel downs figured out.

[alanvh2o]

Dick Jauron at Corner!!

 

[RiotAct]

Bum Phillips!

[Tuco]

Well while we're at it, there was a time when the QB couldn't just spike the ball to stop the clock either. They had to take the snap and fire it over the WR's head or at his feet.

 

And there was a time when offensive linemen weren't allowed to move once they were set. There was none of this guards and tackle pointing all over the place until right before the snap. And there was no such thing as a neutral zone infraction. As long as no contact was made the defender could come across the line and if the offensive lineman moved it was a false start. Then they changed the rule to read if the neutral zone infraction causes the lineman to move instinctively then it's a penalty on the defense. And now, of course, offensive linemen simply point to the defender as soon as he comes across the line. That used to not exist in any form. O linemen got set and had to stay set without even twitching. And defenders could jump Offside and get back before the snap with no repercussions.

 

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

The obvious chess move in the absence of kneel downs should have been just keep driving to run up the score! 🤷🏼‍♂️

[LeGOATski]

6 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Well while we're at it, there was a time when the QB couldn't just spike the ball to stop the clock either. They had to take the snap and fire it over the WR's head or at his feet.

what Josh should have done at the end of halftime last Sunday ^^ ... or Diggs could've intentionally dropped it. Would've stopped the clock.

[Dan Darragh]

3 hours ago, Tuco said:

Well while we're at it, there was a time when the QB couldn't just spike the ball to stop the clock either. They had to take the snap and fire it over the WR's head or at his feet.

 

And there was a time when offensive linemen weren't allowed to move once they were set. There was none of this guards and tackle pointing all over the place until right before the snap. And there was no such thing as a neutral zone infraction. As long as no contact was made the defender could come across the line and if the offensive lineman moved it was a false start. Then they changed the rule to read if the neutral zone infraction causes the lineman to move instinctively then it's a penalty on the defense. And now, of course, offensive linemen simply point to the defender as soon as he comes across the line. That used to not exist in any form. O linemen got set and had to stay set without even twitching. And defenders could jump Offside and get back before the snap with no repercussions.

 

 

And we needed to rub two sticks together to start a fire!

[CSBill]

But the Bills won that day. Well done!

[Joe Ferguson forever]

or you can scramble and throw a rainbow pass that hangs in the air.  Starts at 23:00

[Charles Romes]

In the old days you also would never wind down the clock to 4 seconds to kick a field goal.  The mindset was you would kick with 20 seconds left and a down in your pocket so you’d have an option in the event of a bad snap. Music city miracle - where we could have run the clock down to 4 - is the event that changed this line of thinking.  

[Big Turk]

54 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

or you can scramble and throw a rainbow pass that hangs in the air.  Starts at 23:00

 

Yeah that's smart too...clock doesn't stop until the ball lands when it goes OOB. Could see the Bills put that to use with Allen tossing it a mile and running 10+ seconds off

[aristocrat]

I think it was Herm Edwards Miracle at the Meadowlands that led to victory formation.  

[Big Turk]

10 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

I think it was Herm Edwards Miracle at the Meadowlands that led to victory formation.  

 

Yes, it was...really famous play.

 

Two things I will say...

 

1) Why would teams even put themselves in a position to potentially fumble?? Even if it "never" happens, clearly there is a chance for smoething bad to happen without any "reward".  The risk-reward ratio is pretty much 100% risk.

 

2) Defensive players really had no celebration game back then...Edwards celebration is to spike the ball and then weirdly jump into the air followed by his teammates running around him and hugging him...players these days probably would rip on their teammates in the film room when they watched the game again for the terrible celebration...probably would be a running joke all year long if not his whole career.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Big Turk

[Nextmanup]

Hey Big Turk, thanks for posting that.  I just watched the relevant section and found that very entertaining.  It's great to see the old Houston helmets, the old Bengals helmets before the tiger stripes, and Bum Phillips out there looking like a cowboy.

 

Most folks here do not seem interested in actually talking about the GAME OF FOOTBALL but you DO!  

 

So I appreciate content like this.

 

Interesting watch!
 

👍

[RobbRiddick]

Love these old school clips

[Nextmanup]

PS:  I enjoyed the score check in with the Bills beating Oakland!  That was 1980---year we were good and won the AFC East!  The commentary about the Bills is also great.  "Most people didn't think they were that great at the start of the year but they look more for real every week" or whatever...

 

 

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Hey Big Turk, thanks for posting that.  I just watched the relevant section and found that very entertaining.  It's great to see the old Houston helmets, the old Bengals helmets before the tiger stripes, and Bum Phillips out there looking like a cowboy.

 

Most folks here do not seem interested in actually talking about the GAME OF FOOTBALL but you DO!  

 

So I appreciate content like this.

 

Interesting watch!
 

👍

 

Thanks and you are welcome!  I LOVE talking about football...especially from the mid 80s onward, but I find some of the older games and tactics interesting as well...

 

I can't get enough of it honestly...the X's and O's, the cat and mouse games on offense and defense, etc...

 

I have about 25 actual NFL playbooks in PDF form from all different teams and years(offense and defense) and find all of the details contained within them fascinating and have learned a TON about how "nuts and bolts" work under the hood from them. Some of the details and the depth they contain are amazing...the number of things a player has to actually KNOW for each play and how their roles change based on various fronts/personnel groupings, etc...it's like they don't just need to know a play...they need to know how their role changes based on what the opponent shows so they actually have to know like 7 or 8 different versions of each play. 

 

One of the ones I have is Rex's Defensive playbook from his time in Baltimore...the complexity is mind blowing.

 

Here is a blast from the past...

 

Greggo's pressure packages from the 2003 Bills:

 

https://www.footballxos.com/download/2003-buffalo-bills-regular-pressure-package-pdf/?wpdmdl=4541&refresh=6336ee7ccfa291664544380&ind=0&filename=2003-Buffalo-Bills-Regular-Pressure-Package.pdf

Edited September 30, 2022 by Big Turk