Dolphins @ Bengals - TNF Game Thread

[GunnerBill]

45 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

A neurologist doesnt have to clear him though.  He only has to be cleared by the teams head physician who isnt necessarily a neurologist.  The teams head physician is who decides whether he can play or not.

 

Yes but if the the neurologist says he can't play teams do not put players out there. If that is what the Dolphins did and it is proveable they are in a world of trouble.

[newcam2012]

38 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The problem is Tua is a competitor and likely will do anything he can to stay on the field.  This is why players need protections from themselves.  Also why he likely would look for second opinions that would let him play instead of second opinions that say he cant

I get what you are saying. It does appear that Tua is part of the problem here. He is a danger to himself and he clearly wants to play. However, it may not be in his best interest. That's where family and close friends have to intervene. Convince him that his health is the number one priority. To seek medical advice. It's not a sign of weakness. Further neurologist's evaluations would be very wise. 

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes but if the the neurologist says he can't play teams do not put players out there. If that is what the Dolphins did and it is proveable they are in a world of trouble.

It is quite possible. 

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I get what you are saying. It does appear that Tua is part of the problem here. He is a danger to himself and he clearly wants to play. However, it may not be in his best interest. That's where family and close friends have to intervene. Convince him that his health is the number one priority. To seek medical advice. It's not a sign of weakness. Further neurologist's evaluations would be very wise. 

 

Im sure he is getting medical treatment at this point.  Yes, players need protections from themselves because they want to compete and be on the field.  These guys are use to getting battered in a game and are use to brushing it off as nothing.  They dont worry about the consequences until they actually happen.  Unless they are Mac Jones who gets an ankle sprain and acts like a shark just bit his leg off.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[machine gun kelly]

Guys, it’s not the team physician.  Within whatever time is designated by the league, in a suspected concussion with any of the four gated issues, an independent neurologist is required to assess and clear or place I whatever stage they deem from their neuro e v a l, which again is not an interview.

 

this is not any given Sunday anymore.  Debate as much as you want, but I’m friends with the Bucs Independent Neuro.  He’s been a customer for me for years.

[Scott7975]

13 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Guys, it’s not the team physician.  Within whatever time is designated by the league, in a suspected concussion with any of the four gated issues, an independent neurologist is required to assess and clear or place I whatever stage they deem from their neuro e v a l, which again is not an interview.

 

this is not any given Sunday anymore.  Debate as much as you want, but I’m friends with the Bucs Independent Neuro.  He’s been a customer for me for years.

 

Yes during the week when they are in concussion protocol they have to be cleared by an independent to go back.  During a game the NFL website with the rules says this:

 

Quote

For the avoidance of doubt, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remain exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician or the Club physician designated as responsible for the diagnosis and management of concussion.

 

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes but if the the neurologist says he can't play teams do not put players out there. If that is what the Dolphins did and it is proveable they are in a world of trouble.

 

You can say they do not put players out there but you dont know that for a fact.  The decision is entirely up to the head team physician.  Yes, I think they would be in a world of trouble but that doesnt mean it never happens.  People do stupid ***** all the time whether they are professionals or not.  We dont even know for a fact he was actually physically examined by the independent.  Was that stated anywhere?

 

Lawyers break the law and do shady *****

Doctors break the law and do shady *****

Politicians break the law and do shady *****

CEOs of big corporatiosn beak the law and do shady *****

Feds break the law and do shady *****

etc etc etc

Everybody does shady *****.

The NFL most certainly does shady *****

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[Patrick Duffy]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes but if the the neurologist says he can't play teams do not put players out there. If that is what the Dolphins did and it is proveable they are in a world of trouble.

 

Yup, also there may be times different teams neurologist could possibly recommend a player not return and not necessarily a no he can't return. In instances similar to that being could be risky if player returned but not enough to say "no, he can't return this game", So in that "grey" area, it would leave the decision to someone else to go against that recommendation if deciding to risk it.

 

I don't know, but I would be interested to hear the discussion when this went down

 

 

[syhuang]

😄

 

 

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Happy, I don’t want to play doctor on the board so PM me and happy to chat with you tomorrow about a neuro exam.  The bottom line is there is a baseline assessment when not in season.  That is then evaluated compared to the objective neuro exam post possible concussion.  Until they meet the threshold, they are out.  The athlete doesn’t know what to do or say even with coaching to get around it.

 

The neuros willing to take on the huge malpractice risk e v a l nfl players are not screwing with the enormous fees they pay to cover those bills for their malpractice.  Most neuros I know and neurosurgeons do t want the headache (no pun) because if they get it wrong they are sued for potentially $100 mil.  Most of the best steer clear.

 

My point is a player or a team can’t do the wink wink, nor nod they did 30 years ago when we watched Amy Given Sunday and those docs.  That crap doesn’t fly now.

 

you don’t have to believe or agree with me, but I’ve been in this space among others for a long long time.

I appreciate your knowledge and info. According to what you are saying it seems reasonable to conclude the neurologist errored in judgement. Tua should have never been allowed to play. Or am I assuming things incorrectly? 

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, syhuang said:

😄

 

 

He's felt like the odd man out on that crew a lot.

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Guys, it’s not the team physician.  Within whatever time is designated by the league, in a suspected concussion with any of the four gated issues, an independent neurologist is required to assess and clear or place I whatever stage they deem from their neuro e v a l, which again is not an interview.

 

this is not any given Sunday anymore.  Debate as much as you want, but I’m friends with the Bucs Independent Neuro.  He’s been a customer for me for years.

I can't see how Tua could have been cleared to play. Like you stated concussion protocols and changes have been made. It's no longer a "wink wink" thing. With that said, I've never seen a player who suffered that kind of head trauma and with clear motor skills loss afterwards take the field in a matter of 30 minutes. Not in this modern day. The changes have prevented such occurrences until this incident. Add in we were told it's a back injury. Lol. What an insult to our intelligence. This whole thing stinks to the high heaven. Whether it's corrupt and or negligence some heads should roll. This just can't happen. 

[Ray Stonada]

4 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I can't see how Tua could have been cleared to play. Like you stated concussion protocols and changes have been made. It's no longer a "wink wink" thing. With that said, I've never seen a player who suffered that kind of head trauma and with clear motor skills loss afterwards take the field in a matter of 30 minutes. Not in this modern day. The changes have prevented such occurrences until this incident. Add in we were told it's a back injury. Lol. What an insult to our intelligence. This whole thing stinks to the high heaven. Whether it's corrupt and or negligence some heads should roll. This just can't happen. 

 

Two facts that might be related: the Phins treated their QB this way and their owner is Stephen Ross.

 

People like Ross find ways around the rules; hire lackeys everywhere; find loyalists to run the protocols; game the system to have "success" at any cost, etc. He did the same stuff in real estate, getting city permission to build Hudson Yards in New York, which looks like a massive skyscraper / shopping mall from Dubai was dropped into the city and which no one needed or likes.

 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You can say they do not put players out there but you dont know that for a fact.  The decision is entirely up to the head team physician.  Yes, I think they would be in a world of trouble but that doesnt mean it never happens.  People do stupid ***** all the time whether they are professionals or not.  We dont even know for a fact he was actually physically examined by the independent.  Was that stated anywhere?

 

Lawyers break the law and do shady *****

Doctors break the law and do shady *****

Politicians break the law and do shady *****

CEOs of big corporatiosn beak the law and do shady *****

Feds break the law and do shady *****

etc etc etc

Everybody does shady *****.

The NFL most certainly does shady *****

 

On the bolded, yes that is what has been stated. Multiples times and re-iterated by RapSheet yesterday. He was examined it was concluded he did not have a concussion and therefore he did not enter the protocol. 

 

As for Doctors breaking the law and "doing shady ****" it is incredibly rare. The conspiracy theorists would be disappointed how rare it is. 

 

If something shady has happened here - contrary to what has been reported this far - then the book should absolutely be thrown at them. But I will wait for evidence of that first.

[Scott7975]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On the bolded, yes that is what has been stated. Multiples times and re-iterated by RapSheet yesterday. He was examined it was concluded he did not have a concussion and therefore he did not enter the protocol. 

 

As for Doctors breaking the law and "doing shady ****" it is incredibly rare. The conspiracy theorists would be disappointed how rare it is. 

 

If something shady has happened here - contrary to what has been reported this far - then the book should absolutely be thrown at them. But I will wait for evidence of that first.

 

Its rare? It may be rare on mainstream media but its not rare at all.

 

Here this is just a first on google that just happened in March.  You can find fraud doctors over thousands of pages just on google.  Just because it wasnt on your local news channel doesnt make it rare

 

Quote

Sixteen Michigan and Ohio-area defendants, including 12 physicians, have been sentenced to prison for a $250 million health care fraud scheme that included the exploitation of patients suffering from addiction and the illegal distribution of over 6.6 million doses of medically unnecessary opioids.Mar 9, 2022

 

Again, you are a professional so you have a bias to think professional won't risk their license by doing shady *****.  Thats completely false.  Money is a funny thing.  Even to people that have it.

 

I understand you wanting to see hard proof.  For me the hard proof was the display on the field.  Any thing other than being ruled an orthopedic cause is an automatic no go.  Coincidentaly they said it was his back.  None of that display is symptoms of orthopedic.  They were clear signs of concussion symptoms.  They either did shady ***** or they are incompentent af.  Either way they did Tua wrong.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Scott7975

[syhuang]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On the bolded, yes that is what has been stated. Multiples times and re-iterated by RapSheet yesterday. He was examined it was concluded he did not have a concussion and therefore he did not enter the protocol. 

 

As for Doctors breaking the law and "doing shady ****" it is incredibly rare. The conspiracy theorists would be disappointed how rare it is. 

 

If something shady has happened here - contrary to what has been reported this far - then the book should absolutely be thrown at them. But I will wait for evidence of that first.

one question: Tua had a “back” injury and wasn’t in concussion protocol leading to Thursday’s game, why was he checked for concussion symptoms everyday as stated by NFL? 
 

Does every player listed in injury report but not in concussion protocol get checked for concussion symptoms everyday? My understanding is “no”.  So other than Tua, which other players not in concussion protocol is checked for concussion symptoms including by independent neuro expert everyday? what protocol is based on to check concussion symptoms on a player with “back” injury but not in concussion protocol?

 

 

[Doc Brown]

10 minutes ago, syhuang said:

one question: Tua had a “back” injury and wasn’t in concussion protocol leading to Thursday’s game, why was he checked for concussion symptoms everyday as stated by NFL? 
 

Does every player listed in injury report but not in concussion protocol get checked for concussion symptoms everyday? My understanding is “no”.  So other than Tua, which other players not in concussion protocol is checked for concussion symptoms including by independent neuro expert everyday? what protocol is based on to check concussion symptoms on a player with “back” injury but not in concussion protocol?

No.  Just if they perform a concussion test during the game which they did with Tua last Sunday.  It doesn't matter whether the initial assessment was positive or negative.

 

Here's the concussion protocol. Basically, if they even check a player for a concussion during the game and they determine that player doesn't have one they follow up at least once.  The following day from what I understand.  I'm guessing he was checked every day for extra caution given how he reacted to the Milano hit.

 

All players who undergo any concussion evaluation on game day shall have a follow up concussion evaluation done the following day by a member of the medical staff. This includes players with both a "positive" and a "negative" initial assessment. The follow up exam should ideally be performed by the same physician who saw the patient on game day, but this may not always be possible. If not, then another member of the club's medical staff may see the patient, who should coordinate their findings with the initial examining physician. At a minimum, the followup exam should consist of: a) focused neurological examination, and b) complete symptom checklist. If symptoms and/or neurological examination are abnormal when compared to baseline, the Locker Room Concussion Evaluation should be performed.

[GunnerBill]

57 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Its rare? It may be rare on mainstream media but its not rare at all.

 

Here this is just a first on google that just happened in March.  You can find fraud doctors over thousands of pages just on google.  Just because it wasnt on your local news channel doesnt make it rare

 

 

Again, you are a professional so you have a bias to think professional won't risk their license by doing shady *****.  Thats completely false.  Money is a funny thing.  Even to people that have it.

 

I understand you wanting to see hard proof.  For me the hard proof was the display on the field.  Any thing other than being ruled an orthopedic cause is an automatic no go.  Coincidentaly they said it was his back.  None of that display is symptoms of orthopedic.  They were clear signs of concussion symptoms.  They either did shady ***** or they are incompentent af.  Either way they did Tua wrong.

 

It is extremely rare. Professionals who screw up don't stay professionals for long. Do you get a bad egg here and there? Sure. But to start from an assumption "I saw something on tv so I will believe my assumption and believe it was an incompetent / corrupt professionl". That is nuts to me.

 

[machine gun kelly]

9 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I appreciate your knowledge and info. According to what you are saying it seems reasonable to conclude the neurologist errored in judgement. Tua should have never been allowed to play. Or am I assuming things incorrectly? 

Honestly, it’s a moot point as we weren’t there, and we don’t know.  I agree with Scott the team doc evaluates during the game, and the independent Neuro is called in if they hit one of the gates which he did.  I wasn’t clear on that point.  An MD knows how to complete a basic Neuro exam. 
 

At the end of the day, I just don’t know what happened and is silly on me to make wild suppositions.  Now Tua could be out for awhile.

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Its rare? It may be rare on mainstream media but its not rare at all.

 

Here this is just a first on google that just happened in March.  You can find fraud doctors over thousands of pages just on google.  Just because it wasnt on your local news channel doesnt make it rare

 

 

Again, you are a professional so you have a bias to think professional won't risk their license by doing shady *****.  Thats completely false.  Money is a funny thing.  Even to people that have it.

 

I understand you wanting to see hard proof.  For me the hard proof was the display on the field.  Any thing other than being ruled an orthopedic cause is an automatic no go.  Coincidentaly they said it was his back.  None of that display is symptoms of orthopedic.  They were clear signs of concussion symptoms.  They either did shady ***** or they are incompentent af.  Either way they did Tua wrong.

Agree 100%. 👍

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is extremely rare. Professionals who screw up don't stay professionals for long. Do you get a bad egg here and there? Sure. But to start from an assumption "I saw something on tv so I will believe my assumption and believe it was an incompetent / corrupt professionl". That is nuts to me.

 

I get that. However, in this Tua situation there can only be two realistic decisions. Either the medical staff was corrupt or incompetent. It's really that simple in my mind. Maybe I'm off in my thinking? 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

 

I get that. However, in this Tua situation there can only be two realistic decisions. Either the medical staff was corrupt or incompetent. It's really that simple in my mind. Maybe I'm off in my thinking? 

 

So to me there are three options:

 

1. The medical staff were corrupt or incompetent and I give that very little credence;

2. Something about the process was off either he was not medically examined by the independent neurologist or he was but they didn't clear him and Miami put him back out there regardless;

3. He wasn't concussed. 

 

I could totally buy that #2 is possible which is why it should be thoroughly investigated, but as of now the NFL themselves and the main credible NFL reporters are not saying that is what happened. So it leaves me with #3 unless new evidence comes to light.

[newcam2012]

31 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So to me there are three options:

 

1. The medical staff were corrupt or incompetent and I give that very little credence;

2. Something about the process was off either he was not medically examined by the independent neurologist or he was but they didn't clear him and Miami put him back out there regardless;

3. He wasn't concussed. 

 

I could totally buy that #2 is possible which is why it should be thoroughly investigated, but as of now the NFL themselves and the main credible NFL reporters are not saying that is what happened. So it leaves me with #3 unless new evidence comes to light.

That's fair. I'm no doctor but what I saw on TV sure looks to be a clear concussion. Not sure how anyone can advocate Tua wasn't concussed. Here is the definition of a concussion: "temporary unconsciousness or confusion caused by a blow on the head." Our eyes are not lying here! Believe what you saw! In A court of law this would be considered "beyond a reasonable doubt." I'll ask this. Since the inception of concussion protocols in the NFL (all sports) when have you ever seen a player return to play 30 minutes after receiving a head blow and stumbling/ shaking their head? NEVER!!! What's a lie is that Tua suffered a back injury and that caused his loss of motor skills. I don't know how anyone in these right mind can believe this.

 

Investigations can only show 3 things.

(1) incompetentence

(2) Nefarious behavior

(3) a cover up.