Dolphins @ Bengals - TNF Game Thread

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You realize that the independent neurologist doesnt make the final call right?  The team doctor makes the final call.  The independent neurologist is just there to consult.

 

 

Yes I am saying they didnt do their job.  Many players, analysts, and other Neurologists share that opinion too so its not just me.

 

Any of this sound familiar?

 

 

 

The team physician makes the call not the independant.  Independant is just there to consult.  People are confused by this because its the independent that makes the call to return if the player was actually put in concussion protocol but not on gameday

 

 

 

They did not do their job period.  Anybody that watched that display of Tua grabbing his helmet, slow to get up, shaking his head, and GMI causing collapse to the ground knows this was not back muscles or legs which would be orthopedic where the head and spine is neurological.

 

 

 

All of this was taken from the NFL's own website.

 

I have said, repeatedly, that it is plausible that the process could have failed - that includes the Dolphins ignoring the neurologist. But as of this point nobody has brought forward any evidence to suggest that is what happened. 

 

If it is, then the NFL should throw the book at the Dolphins.

42 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

GunnerBill, it doesn't take a doctor to know Tua suffered a concussion in the Bills game. Scott is 100% correct! The doctors errored in their judgements and who knows why? That's the bottom line. I can definelty go there because the evidence is overwhelming and indisputable. Now let the cover up begin...

 

It isn't. He may well have suffered a concussion and there may well be a cover up because the Dolphins did something very silly. But if that is the case we need to see actual evidence. 

 

You can't definitely go there. You can have your opinion. We all can. He looked like he had suffered a concussion. But we need more than just the video of the collision with the ground to say it is indisputable.

Edited September 30, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Would everyone support a mandatory 1 week rest period after a concussion? 
 

 

 

No.  The system is clearly working.  

 

The Dolphins just gave it the finger last Sunday.

 

He was never put in the protocol because they knew that meant he would not have played last night being a short week.

 

 

Everyone there should be investigated.  All of them.  And Tyreek Hill should then be suspended for the year as punishment.  Since they lost all the draft picks they'd be stripped of to get him anyway.  I may or may not be serious here on that last part.  

Edited September 30, 2022 by Big Blitz

[newcam2012]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Burrow had a terrible deep ball his rookie year than got chase 

Joe Burrow literally couldn’t  start at Ohio State and I quote urban meyer… “ He throws like a girl”

 

Now players improve… But nobody ever said tua threw like a girl… He replaced Jalen hurts as a true freshman in the national championship game and won it with a 50 yard deep ball… A ball hurts wasn’t making at the time

 

You keep going back to Tua when he played un high school and college. That's really not relevant now. It's looking like maybe he was a very good or great college QB. I mean his supporting cast was second to none. Fast forward to the NFL and its pretty clear by most Tua isn't very good. Brian Flores refused to play him. A well respected coach even amount the players. That should speak volumes. The Dolphins were actively seeking Watson and Brady. That should speak volumes. The guy has woefully fallen short this far. He has literally the best 1-2 Wr combo in the league and still looks average at best. I suggest you get dismiss the HS and college Tua and focus on the NFL Tua. The NFL Tua is not what the Dolphins were looking for. The Tua pick is in line with the Josh Rosen pick. 

[Patrick Duffy]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

The Tua pick is in line with the Josh Rosen pick.

 

Nah I wouldn't go that far. Tua has had his struggles but not even close to anything near being in line with the Rosen pick

[Buffalo716]

Just now, newcam2012 said:

You keep going back to Tua when he played un high school and college. That's really not relevant now. It's looking like maybe he was a very good or great college QB. I mean his supporting cast was second to none. Fast forward to the NFL and its pretty clear by most Tua isn't very good. Brian Flores refused to play him. A well respected coach even amount the players. That should speak volumes. The Dolphins were actively seeking Watson and Brady. That should speak volumes. The guy has woefully fallen short this far. He has literally the best 1-2 Wr combo in the league and still looks average at best. I suggest you get dismiss the HS and college Tua and focus on the NFL Tua. The NFL Tua is not what the Dolphins were looking for. The Tua pick is in line with the Josh Rosen pick. 

Comparing tua to Rosen is hyperbole

 

One hasn’t even been able to play at a back up level… The other has 35 touchdowns to 18 interceptions in his career… 
 

And again I’m not saying tua is a great quarterback for the NFL

 

I’m talking pure arm strength which people said he has a noodle arm

 

Just because he doesn’t have a howitzer doesn’t mean it’s a noodle

 

And you can go back to his true freshman year of college to see he doesn’t have a noodle arm with the game-winning pass in the national championship game

[newcam2012]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have said, repeatedly, that it is plausible that the process could have failed - that includes the Dolphins ignoring the neurologist. But as of this point nobody has brought forward any evidence to suggest that is what happened. 

 

If it is, then the NFL should throw the book at the Dolphins.

 

It isn't. He may well have suffered a concussion and there may well be a cover up because the Dolphins did something very silly. But if that is the case we need to see actual evidence. 

 

You can't definitely go there. You can have your opinion. We all can. He looked like he had suffered a concussion. But we need more than just the video of the collision with the ground to say it is indisputable.

We need more evidence on whether there was a cover up and why he was allowed to play. Where we disagree is whether Tua suffered a concussion and why he was allowed to play. No one can convince me he wasn't concussed and he passed protocols. That's an assumption I'm willing to make based on the evidence I saw. Maybe this will help. You look outside before you go to sleep and the ground is clear and you can see the concrete. In the morning you wake up and the ground is covered with snow. It's pretty safe to say it snowed last night. What you are saying is wait maybe someone bought a snow machine and it really didn't snow. We need to investigate it. 

5 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

 

Nah I wouldn't go that far. Tua has had his struggles but not even close to anything near being in line with the Rosen pick

You are probably right here. 

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Comparing tua to Rosen is hyperbole

 

One hasn’t even been able to play at a back up level… The other has 35 touchdowns to 18 interceptions in his career… 
 

And again I’m not saying tua is a great quarterback for the NFL

 

I’m talking pure arm strength which people said he has a noodle arm

 

Just because he doesn’t have a howitzer doesn’t mean it’s a noodle

 

And you can go back to his true freshman year of college to see he doesn’t have a noodle arm with the game-winning pass in the national championship game

I can say with reasonable validity that his arm isn't anything special in the NFL. In fact, it appears to be more inadequate strength wise than an asset. For whatever that's worth. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

So you are saying you knew better from watching than the independent neurologist knew from an examination. 

 

Myself, no, but several neurological experts have chimed in on Twitter and said that he should not have played on Thursday after the injury he suffered against us. There is supposed to be certain "no-go" symptoms that keep a player out regardless of the independent consultant's opinion. Staggering and looking woozy after hitting his head by all accounts should be considered a no-go symptom. My understanding is that there is no objective way for the independent consultant to verify for sure if the player in question has a concussion. The symptoms are subjective and the protocol is easy to fake. That's why objective symptoms such as what Tua showed are supposed to keep a player out. Again this isn't my opinion, this is what I've read from actual experts on Twitter.

 

That being said I would not be surprised at all if the Dolphins did in fact technically follow the protocol to the letter and therefore protected themselves from repercussions. Ethically I don't agree with them sending Tua back in - frankly I think it is disgusting - but the NFL can't ascribe punishments subjectively like that. The protocol needs to be clearer. Players are always going to want to get back on the field. They have to protect the players from themselves.

 

If Tua did in fact have a concussion against us and another one yesterday, it is the closest the NFL has come in a long time to a really serious issue of public confidence in the league. He could have suffered a TBI or worse. It didn't happen this time but the NFL has to do everything in their power to make sure that risk never comes up again.

 

Also **** the Dolphins.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by HappyDays

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

We need more evidence on whether there was a cover up and why he was allowed to play. Where we disagree is whether Tua suffered a concussion and why he was allowed to play. No one can convince me he wasn't concussed and he passed protocols. That's an assumption I'm willing to make based on the evidence I saw. Maybe this will help. You look outside before you go to sleep and the ground is clear and you can see the concrete. In the morning you wake up and the ground is covered with snow. It's pretty safe to say it snowed last night. What you are saying is wait maybe someone bought a snow machine and it really didn't snow. We need to investigate it. 

 

 

That is not a relevant metaphor because I am saying if we are being told a neurologist cleared him - and to be clear, we are - then I believe that neurologist because to screw this up would have major consequences for him. They make those sorts of mistakes incredibly rarely.

 

If it later turns out that in fact the neurologist did not clear him and the Dolphins put him out there then that is a different story. 

 

[Low Positive]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Comparing tua to Rosen is hyperbole

 

One hasn’t even been able to play at a back up level… The other has 35 touchdowns to 18 interceptions in his career… 
 

And again I’m not saying tua is a great quarterback for the NFL

 

I’m talking pure arm strength which people said he has a noodle arm

 

Just because he doesn’t have a howitzer doesn’t mean it’s a noodle

 

And you can go back to his true freshman year of college to see he doesn’t have a noodle arm with the game-winning pass in the national championship game

You are probably right, but I base that upon the accuracy and touch he demonstrates in short to medium passes in the NFL. If you do that well, you can soften up a defense for deep shots. It's what Brady has done for decades.

 

That said, I don't care what he did in college. Devonta Smith made Mac Jones look like he has elite arm talent. Alabama's receivers are so much faster than college DBs that all the QBs have to do is get it there.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

We need more evidence on whether there was a cover up and why he was allowed to play. Where we disagree is whether Tua suffered a concussion and why he was allowed to play. No one can convince me he wasn't concussed and he passed protocols. That's an assumption I'm willing to make based on the evidence I saw. Maybe this will help. You look outside before you go to sleep and the ground is clear and you can see the concrete. In the morning you wake up and the ground is covered with snow. It's pretty safe to say it snowed last night. What you are saying is wait maybe someone bought a snow machine and it really didn't snow. We need to investigate it. 

You are probably right here. 

I can say with reasonable validity that his arm isn't anything special in the NFL. In fact, it appears to be more inadequate strength wise than an asset. For whatever that's worth. 

I never said it was special

 

I have continuously said it’s not as weak as what some people think… It’s just a simple as that

 

People would make you think it’s a chase Daniel arm… or kellen Moore … it’s not that weak 

 

It’s A step above fitz… and fitz is a step above Barkley 

 

I would say Barkley has a noodle arm

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Myself, no, but several neurological experts have chimed in on Twitter and said that he should not have played on Thursday after the injury he suffered against us. There is supposed to be certain "no-go" symptoms that keep a player out regardless of the independent consultant's opinion. Staggering and looking woozy after hitting his head by all accounts should be considered a no-go symptom. My understanding is that there is no objective way for the independent consultant to verify for sure if the player in question has a concussion. The symptoms are subjective and the protocol is easy to fake. That's why objective symptoms such as what Tua showed are supposed to keep a player out. Again this isn't my opinion, this is what I've read from actual experts on Twitter.

 

That being said I would not be surprised at all if the Dolphins did in fact technically follow the protocol to the letter and therefore protected themselves from repercussions. Ethically I don't agree with them sending Tua back in - frankly I think it is disgusting - but the NFL can't ascribe punishments subjectively like that. The protocol needs to be clearer. Players are always going to want to get back on the field. They have to protect the players from themselves.

 

If Tua did in fact have a concussion against us and another one yesterday, it is the closest the NFL has come in a long time to a really serious issue of public confidence in the league. He could have suffered a TBI or worse. It didn't happen this time but the NFL has to do everything in their power to make sure that risk never comes up again.

 

Also **** the Dolphins.

 

Myself, no, but several neurological experts have chimed in on Twitter and said that he should not have played on Thursday after the injury he suffered against us. There is supposed to be certain "no-go" symptoms that keep a player out regardless of the independent consultant's opinion. Staggering and looking woozy after hitting his head by all accounts should be considered a no-go symptom. My understanding is that there is no objective way for the independent consultant to verify for sure if the player in question has a concussion. The symptoms are subjective and the protocol is easy to fake. That's why objective symptoms such as what Tua showed are supposed to keep a player out. Again this isn't my opinion, this is what I've read from actual experts on Twitter.

 

That being said I would not be surprised at all if the Dolphins did in fact technically follow the protocol to the letter and therefore protected themselves from repercussions. Ethically I don't agree with them sending Tua back in - frankly I think it is disgusting - but the NFL can't ascribe punishments subjectively like that. The protocol needs to be clearer. Players are always going to want to get back on the field. They have to protect the players from themselves.

 

If Tua did in fact have a concussion against us and another one yesterday, it is the closest the NFL has come in a long time to a really serious issue of public confidence in the league. He could have suffered a TBI or worse. It didn't happen this time but the NFL has to do everything in their power to make sure that risk never comes up again.

 

Also **** the Dolphins.

 

I agree with a lot of this. I don't agree it as easy to fool a neurologist as you claim though. @machine gun kelly explained that better than I could. Nobody is denying that the prima facie evidence we saw on TV looks like a concussion. 

 

The protocol needs strengthening though so that even if a player is NOT concussed, the symptoms that Tua displayed on the field on Sunday immediately trigger him being heldout. There is no doubt about that. 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is not a relevant metaphor because I am saying if we are being told a neurologist cleared him - and to be clear, we are - then I believe that neurologist because to screw this up would have major consequences for him. They make those sorts of mistakes incredibly rarely.

 

If it later turns out that in fact the neurologist did not clear him and the Dolphins put him out there then that is a different story. 

 

 

You're statement here is completely understandable and I agree that's normally the case in these situations. I will also say that something just seems a bit off in this particular situation which is reason for the investigation. I'm not sure what will come out about this but it certainly seems like more explaining is needed.

[frostbitmic]

Would the Neurologist be brought in for an examination of the player if the team doctor said it was a spine/back injury ?

[newcam2012]

9 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

You are probably right, but I base that upon the accuracy and touch he demonstrates in short to medium passes in the NFL. If you do that well, you can soften up a defense for deep shots. It's what Brady has done for decades.

 

That said, I don't care what he did in college. Devonta Smith made Mac Jones look like he has elite arm talent. Alabama's receivers are so much faster than college DBs that all the QBs have to do is get it there.

 

 

He was throwing to Ruggs, Waddle,  and Juedy. Now it's Hill and Waddle. Need I say more. 

[Scott7975]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is not a relevant metaphor because I am saying if we are being told a neurologist cleared him - and to be clear, we are - then I believe that neurologist because to screw this up would have major consequences for him. They make those sorts of mistakes incredibly rarely.

 

If it later turns out that in fact the neurologist did not clear him and the Dolphins put him out there then that is a different story. 

 

 

A neurologist doesnt have to clear him though.  He only has to be cleared by the teams head physician who isnt necessarily a neurologist.  The teams head physician is who decides whether he can play or not.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[newcam2012]

If I were Tua, I'd be looking for several neurologists opinions and evaluations. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th independent evaluations. Decide if he should continue to play football. His health should come first. His family and friends have to encourage him to reevaluate his football career. 

 

Secondly, I would be consulting a lawyer to see if I have a legitimate law suit against the league, the Dolphins, and various doctors. 

[Scott7975]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with a lot of this. I don't agree it as easy to fool a neurologist as you claim though. @machine gun kelly explained that better than I could. Nobody is denying that the prima facie evidence we saw on TV looks like a concussion. 

 

The protocol needs strengthening though so that even if a player is NOT concussed, the symptoms that Tua displayed on the field on Sunday immediately trigger him being heldout. There is no doubt about that. 

 

Agree with this.  Although concussion symptoms can take hours to days to show any symptoms so I dont think its all that hard to fool a neurologist in that case.  This is why the protocol does need to change.

 

As an example I got a concussion at work.  After about a minute of dizziness I was fine and worked the rest of the day.  It wasnt until later that night I started getting bad headaches among other things.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[machine gun kelly]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with a lot of this. I don't agree it as easy to fool a neurologist as you claim though. @machine gun kelly explained that better than I could. Nobody is denying that the prima facie evidence we saw on TV looks like a concussion. 

 

The protocol needs strengthening though so that even if a player is NOT concussed, the symptoms that Tua displayed on the field on Sunday immediately trigger him being heldout. There is no doubt about that. 

Happy, I don’t want to play doctor on the board so PM me and happy to chat with you tomorrow about a neuro exam.  The bottom line is there is a baseline assessment when not in season.  That is then evaluated compared to the objective neuro exam post possible concussion.  Until they meet the threshold, they are out.  The athlete doesn’t know what to do or say even with coaching to get around it.

 

The neuros willing to take on the huge malpractice risk e v a l nfl players are not screwing with the enormous fees they pay to cover those bills for their malpractice.  Most neuros I know and neurosurgeons do t want the headache (no pun) because if they get it wrong they are sued for potentially $100 mil.  Most of the best steer clear.

 

My point is a player or a team can’t do the wink wink, nor nod they did 30 years ago when we watched Amy Given Sunday and those docs.  That crap doesn’t fly now.

 

you don’t have to believe or agree with me, but I’ve been in this space among others for a long long time.

[White Linen]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Not according to this board

 

Zack Moss isn’t even an NFL caliber running back to some here lol

 

And then I started arguing his arm strength because some people would make you believe He throws a football like Chase Daniel or kellen Moore… He doesn’t have a howitzer but his arm isn’t that weak

 

It's extremely weak.

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

If I were Tua, I'd be looking for several neurologists opinions and evaluations. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th independent evaluations. Decide if he should continue to play football. His health should come first. His family and friends have to encourage him to reevaluate his football career. 

 

Secondly, I would be consulting a lawyer to see if I have a legitimate law suit against the league, the Dolphins, and various doctors. 

 

The problem is Tua is a competitor and likely will do anything he can to stay on the field.  This is why players need protections from themselves.  Also why he likely would look for second opinions that would let him play instead of second opinions that say he cant