Dolphins @ Bengals - TNF Game Thread

[Scott7975]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So let me start with this - I am all for strengthening the protocol. I am all for any evidence of a loss of motor functionality means immediate withdrawal of a player from the game. I expect that to be discussed after the season (if not before then) and the rule change to be brought it and I would absolutely support it. I was as surprised as anyone that Tua returned to the game after half time. I thought for sure he was done. I saw the same as everyone else. But for me to believe that he did have a concussion after that incident I have to believe that either:

 

a) the process was not followed to the letter and either the independent neurologist did not examine Tua or that pressure was brought to bear on his finding; or

b) that the independent neurologist screwed up. 

 

b) is not credible to me. If the examination was conducted and they thought there was any chance he had concussion they would not have approved him to go back into the game. If they screwed up it would be a potential professional negligence issue and we are talking careers on the line. So I am not going to substitute an independent neurologist's view after conducting an examination for mine sitting on my sofa. I do believe a) is a credible explanation but nobody so far has uncovered any evidence to suggest that was the case or that the process was not followed to the letter. Which leaves me with maybe he wasn't concussed. That does not, however, mean I think he should have gone back into the game and the protocol absolutely should be looked at. 

 

 

IMO there is zero chance Tua didnt get concussed on Sunday.  What he displayed is not a symptom of back pain.  It is however definitie symptom of concussion. We know

 

1: he violently bounced his head off the ground

2: he grabbed his helmet for a bit before he got up

3: he shook his head after he got up

4: he lost motor control and collapsed to the ground

 

Any competent Neurologists would have taken him out regardless of whether or not he passed the "how many fingers am I holding up" test (yes I know thats not the real test.). I know you are a professional so you are a little biased in defending other professionals.

 

I totally respect your opinion and I know you are a smart guy but Im not going to agree with you on this one.

 

Full disclosure, I am not a doctor but I am smart.  I have also had concussions.  I have also had back pain.  I have also had severe neck injury and surgery.  I currently deal with a large amount of neurological problems. I feel that is good enough experience to give a educated opinion.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[FilthyBeast]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

Any chance you watched the Bengals play last night?

 

I know some fans are looking to minimize anything related to the Dolphins, but the Bengals are a contender even if they still have work to do like a lot of other similar teams.

 

That defense is solid and if their oline can improve even marginally they'll be very hard to beat. It says a lot though they were able to get to the SB last year and almost won it with an average at best oline.

 

Also beating one of the league's best teams means something even if there's an asterisk since Tua left the game early.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Would everyone support a mandatory 1 week rest period after a concussion? 
 

[TBBills]

2 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Not trolling at all Just think it's inappropriate given the circumstances and kicking a guy when he's down.

 

But anyways, you do you.

 

Have a good day 

He isn't down though...

4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

I know some fans are looking to minimize anything related to the Dolphins, but the Bengals are a contender even if they still have work to do like a lot of other similar teams.

 

That defense is solid and if their oline can improve even marginally they'll be very hard to beat. It says a lot though they were able to get to the SB last year and almost won it with an average at best oline.

 

Also beating one of the league's best teams means something even if there's an asterisk since Tua left the game early.

You are just angry b.c your Dolphims came back down to earth. The luck streak lasted 3 games this season.

[FilthyBeast]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I can absolutely say that as a Bills fan QB Tua instills no fear in me. I know Tua will not beat the Bills. 

It's a big game for being early in the schedule. I really don't want the Bills to be 2-2. That isn't horrendous but it just doesn't sit well with me. 

 

It's not ideal but I had this team at 3-3 after the first 6 before getting hotter down the stretch.

 

Just think it's asking a lot playing back to back road games against SB contenders but then again if the Bills truly fancy themselves one they should be able to split here.

[Warcodered]

9 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

I know some fans are looking to minimize anything related to the Dolphins, but the Bengals are a contender even if they still have work to do like a lot of other similar teams.

 

That defense is solid and if their oline can improve even marginally they'll be very hard to beat. It says a lot though they were able to get to the SB last year and almost won it with an average at best oline.

 

Also beating one of the league's best teams means something even if there's an asterisk since Tua left the game early.

Their is always a grey lining to every silver cloud?

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

IMO there is zero chance Tua didnt get concussed on Sunday.  What he displayed is not a symptom of back pain.  It is however definitie symptom of concussion. We know

 

1: he violently bounced his head off the ground

2: he grabbed his helmet for a bit before he got up

3: he shook his head after he got up

4: he lost motor control and collapsed to the ground

 

Any competent Neurologists would have taken him out regardless of whether or not he passed the "how many fingers am I holding up" test (yes I know thats not the real test.). I know you are a professional so you are a little biased in defending other professionals.

 

I totally respect your opinion and I know you are a smart guy but Im not going to agree with you on this one.

 

Full disclosure, I am not a doctor but I am smart.  I have also had concussions.  I have also had back pain.  I have also had severe neck injury and surgery.  I currently deal with a large amount of neurological problems. I feel that is good enough experience to give a educated opinion.

 

So you are saying you knew better from watching than the independent neurologist knew from an examination. 

 

Yea. I can't get myself to that place.

26 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Would everyone support a mandatory 1 week rest period after a concussion? 
 

 

Yes. But you would still need Tua to have been diagnosed with a concussion. He wasn't.

[TBBills]

25 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

It's not ideal but I had this team at 3-3 after the first 6 before getting hotter down the stretch.

 

Just think it's asking a lot playing back to back road games against SB contenders but then again if the Bills truly fancy themselves one they should be able to split here.

So they got hot too early, at least you realize they have one hot streak a year and just blew it.

[Dr. K]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So let me start with this - I am all for strengthening the protocol. I am all for any evidence of a loss of motor functionality means immediate withdrawal of a player from the game. I expect that to be discussed after the season (if not before then) and the rule change to be brought it and I would absolutely support it. I was as surprised as anyone that Tua returned to the game after half time. I thought for sure he was done. I saw the same as everyone else. But for me to believe that he did have a concussion after that incident I have to believe that either:

 

a) the process was not followed to the letter and either the independent neurologist did not examine Tua or that pressure was brought to bear on his finding; or

b) that the independent neurologist screwed up. 

 

b) is not credible to me. If the examination was conducted and they thought there was any chance he had concussion they would not have approved him to go back into the game. If they screwed up it would be a potential professional negligence issue and we are talking careers on the line. So I am not going to substitute an independent neurologist's view after conducting an examination for mine sitting on my sofa. I do believe a) is a credible explanation but nobody so far has uncovered any evidence to suggest that was the case or that the process was not followed to the letter. Which leaves me with maybe he wasn't concussed. That does not, however, mean I think he should have gone back into the game and the protocol absolutely should be looked at. 

 

Medical professionals screw up all the time, especially when they are under pressure of time or other circumstances. We don't know the exact circumstances of the examination that went on last Sunday, but I can believe that for one reason or another the person involved screwed up.

 

I hope we will learn more. 

[frostbitmic]

Football wasn't meant to be played on Thursdays. Not enough time to recover from Sunday games and not enough time to prepare for your opponent.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

I think your delusional about his arm strength.  

I think you’re delusional about how weak his arm is

 

His arm Is as strong as Jalen hurts going back to college

 

It’s not a howitzer but it’s not Matt Barkley weak

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Wrong.  You are labeling him like a franchise QB.  That alone puts him against at most 32 QBs.  Not all 110.

Where did I ever say he was a franchise quarterback? 
 

I said Tua is a talented kid who doesn’t have the durability to play in the league

 

That doesn’t sound like a franchise quarterback

 

hes talented … He’s not built to last in the NFL

Edited September 30, 2022 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

Medical professionals screw up all the time, especially when they are under pressure of time or other circumstances. We don't know the exact circumstances of the examination that went on last Sunday, but I can believe that for one reason or another the person involved screwed up.

 

I hope we will learn more. 

 

They do not screw up "all the time." In fact they screw up extremely rarely. Because if you screw up all the time you get struck off. I find it not credible that the independent neurologist, if he conducted an examination, screwed up. 

[Scott7975]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think you’re delusional about how weak his arm is

 

His arm Is as strong as Jalen hurts going back to college

 

It’s not a howitzer but it’s not Matt Barkley weak

Where did I ever say he was a franchise quarterback? 
 

I said Tua is a talented kid who doesn’t have the durability to play in the league

 

That doesn’t sound like a franchise quarterback

 

hes talented … He’s not built to last in the NFL

 

Ok he is talented.  So is everyone in the NFL.

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Ok he is talented.  So is everyone in the NFL.

Not according to this board

 

Zack Moss isn’t even an NFL caliber running back to some here lol

 

And then I started arguing his arm strength because some people would make you believe He throws a football like Chase Daniel or kellen Moore… He doesn’t have a howitzer but his arm isn’t that weak

Edited September 30, 2022 by Buffalo716

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So you are saying you knew better from watching than the independent neurologist knew from an examination. 

 

Yea. I can't get myself to that place.

 

Yes. But you would still need Tua to have been diagnosed with a concussion. He wasn't.

 

You realize that the independent neurologist doesnt make the final call right?  The team doctor makes the final call.  The independent neurologist is just there to consult.

 

Quote

Added a third UNC who will monitor the broadcast video and audio feeds of each game from the spotters' booth, and notify on-field UNCs of possible head, neck or spine injuries.

 

Defined impact seizure and fencing responses as independent signs of potential loss of consciousness, representing "No-Go" criteria under the current Protocol. Players who display either of these signs at any time shall be removed from play and may not return to the game.

 

Required an evaluation for all players demonstrating gross motor instability (e.g., stumbling or falling to the ground when trying to stand) to determine the cause of the instability. If the team physician, in consultation with the sideline UNC, determines the instability to be neurologically caused, the player is designated a "No-Go" and may not return to play.

 

Yes I am saying they didnt do their job.  Many players, analysts, and other Neurologists share that opinion too so its not just me.

 

Any of this sound familiar?

 

Quote

Potential Concussion Signs (Observable)

Any loss of consciousness;

Impact seizure or "fencing" posture

Slow to get up following a hit to the head ("hit to the head" may include secondary contact with the playing surface);

Motor coordination/balance problems (stumbles, trips/falls, slow/labored movement);

Blank or vacant look;

Disorientation (e.g., unsure of where he is on the field or location of bench);

Amnesia, both anterograde and retrograde;

Clutching of head after contact; or

Visible facial injury in combination with any of the above.

 

 

The team physician makes the call not the independant.  Independant is just there to consult.  People are confused by this because its the independent that makes the call to return if the player was actually put in concussion protocol but not on gameday

 

Quote

A UNC shall be a physician who is impartial and independent from any Club, is board certified in neurology, emergency medicine, physical medicine and rehabilitation, or any primary care CAQ sports medicine certified physician or board eligible or board certified in neurological surgery, and has documented competence and experience in the treatment of acute head injuries. UNCs are appointed by the NFL Head, Neck and Spine Committee in consultation with the NFLPA Mackey-White Committee and approved by the NFL Chief Medical Officer and the NFLPA Medical Director, and have undergone formal UNC training provided by the NFL and NFLPA. At each game, each Club will be assigned a UNC to be present on its sideline who shall be: (i) focused on identifying signs or symptoms of concussion and mechanisms of injury that warrant concussion evaluation, (ii) working in consultation with the Head Team Physician or his/her designee to implement the concussion evaluation and management protocol (including the Locker Room Comprehensive Concussion Assessment Exam) during the games, and (iii) present to observe (and collaborate when appropriate with the team physician) the Sideline Concussion Assessment Exams performed by Club medical staff. The UNCs also will be available to assist in coordinating which physician will accompany a player who is transported to the EAP-designated trauma center for more advanced evaluation and treatment. The UNCs will work with the Club's medical staff and will assist in the diagnosis and care of the concussed player. The Club physician/UNC unit will be co-located for all concussion evaluations and management both on and off the field. The UNC may present his/her own questions or conduct additional testing and shall assist in the diagnosis and treatment of concussions. Regardless, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remains exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician or his/her physician designee responsible for the diagnosis and treatment of concussion. A UNC will also be present for sideline evaluations for neuropraxia ("stingers" or "burners") and other potential spinal and peripheral nerve injuries.

 

 

They did not do their job period.  Anybody that watched that display of Tua grabbing his helmet, slow to get up, shaking his head, and GMI causing collapse to the ground knows this was not back muscles or legs which would be orthopedic where the head and spine is neurological.

 

Quote

"No-Go" Signs and Symptoms.

If a player exhibits or reports any of the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room. If a neutral sideline observer or a member of the player's club's medical team observes a player exhibit or receives a report that a player has experienced any of the following signs or symptoms, the player shall be considered to have suffered a concussion and may not return to participation (practice or play) on the same day under any circumstances:

 

Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or "fencing posture")

Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC, who observe the player's behavior, have access to the player's relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for any observed instability

Confusion

Amnesia

 

 

Quote

For the avoidance of doubt, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remain exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician or the Club physician designated as responsible for the diagnosis and management of concussion.

 

All of this was taken from the NFL's own website.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So you are saying you knew better from watching than the independent neurologist knew from an examination. 

 

Yea. I can't get myself to that place.

 

Yes. But you would still need Tua to have been diagnosed with a concussion. He wasn't.

GunnerBill, it doesn't take a doctor to know Tua suffered a concussion in the Bills game. Scott is 100% correct! The doctors errored in their judgements and who knows why? That's the bottom line. I can definelty go there because the evidence is overwhelming and indisputable. Now let the cover up begin...

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think you’re delusional about how weak his arm is

 

His arm Is as strong as Jalen hurts going back to college

 

It’s not a howitzer but it’s not Matt Barkley weak

Where did I ever say he was a franchise quarterback? 
 

I said Tua is a talented kid who doesn’t have the durability to play in the league

 

That doesn’t sound like a franchise quarterback

 

hes talented … He’s not built to last in the NFL

I think it would be wise for him to retire. My 18 year old boy made a good observation. He said dad Tua throws off his back foot a lot.  His size and being off balance is going to result in moret hitting his head when tackled. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by newcam2012

[Buffalo716]

Just now, newcam2012 said:

I think it would be wise for him to retire. My 18 year old boy made a good observation. He said dad Tua throws off his back foot a lot.  His size and being off balance is going to be subject to hitting his head when tackled. 

That is true

[newcam2012]

51 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Not according to this board

 

Zack Moss isn’t even an NFL caliber running back to some here lol

 

And then I started arguing his arm strength because some people would make you believe He throws a football like Chase Daniel or kellen Moore… He doesn’t have a howitzer but his arm isn’t that weak

You have yet to explain why his long ball throws in the NFL look terrible. Why he throws it so high? I don't see Tua as having a strong arm. Burrows and Hurts throw a much much smoother and tighter long ball. We've seen a big enough sample to say Tua's long ball is pretty bad. Perhaps it's mechanics. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by newcam2012

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

You have yet to explain why his long ball throws in the NFL look terrible. Why he throws it so high? To me I don't see The as having a strong arm. Burrows and Hurts throw a much much smoother and tighter long ball than Tua. We've seen a big enough sample to say Tua's long ball is pretty bad. 

Burrow had a terrible deep ball his rookie year than got chase 

Joe Burrow literally couldn’t  start at Ohio State and I quote urban meyer… “ He throws like a girl”

 

Now players improve… But nobody ever said tua threw like a girl… He replaced Jalen hurts as a true freshman in the national championship game and won it with a 50 yard deep ball… A ball hurts wasn’t making at the time

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Buffalo716