Cover 1 Breakdown of Dolphins game on D...Dolphins used similar concepts shown by Tennessee with some tweaks to attack Bills, Backups hurt us on some plays, coaches could have helped a little more(Mostly favorable review of play of Bills D all in all)

[Big Turk]

44 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

So a professional football team couldn't complete a snap under Center with 1/2-yard to go? 

 

Okay, guess I wasn't paying attention hard enough. 

 

Assume what you say is true, my conclusion is we are stuck as a football team. When you can't trust your line, your running backs, to pick up 1/2-yard on the goal line on a 2nd-1, we're stuck. When Allen/Macrz/Van Roten can't complete a QB sneak because of butt sweat, and that causes you to lose a football game, that's astonishing frankly. 

 

Jaquan Johnson is young?

 

Damar Hamlin is young? 

 

These guys aren't rookies. This is Johnson's 4th year here. Hamlin you can say that. 

 

It's a bad Coaching call, one that we've seen before from McDermott and Frazier. 

 

This play off the ball 15 yards on long down and distances. 

 

Rushing 3, not playing man off the line with the safeties over top. 

 

This has happened before. 

 

 

 

 

PLAYING TOO FAR OFF

 

 

It can be hard to have conversations sometimes about detailed things that are not apparent to casual fans because they can't understand why it is an issue or why those details matter.  This is clearly one of those times.  

 

So yes...a professional football team that was down to it's 3rd string center who normally plays guard and doesn't snap the ball was playing with 3 other backups, one of which was also out of position, while also dealing with extreme sweating which makes the ball much trickier to handle was having trouble executing it.  Newsflash, 31 other teams in the league when faced with the same circumstances would have struggled to do the same thing.  Not more than 1 or 2 of them would even be at the 1/2 yard line to begin with, so it would have been a moot point in terms of why they couldn't execute that because their QB would have probably been sacked or would be throwing the ball away every play so they would have been punting regularly after going 3 and out.

 

Young in terms of in game experience. They simply haven't had much of it.  Clearly you don't think that matters, which I guess is your right to think that, but most players and coaches will tell you it matters a LOT.  You can't simulate regular season games in training camp, practices or even pre-season games in terms of play calls, situations, speed of the game, opponent adjustments, etc..

 

Yes, and the vast majority of times they force the QB to throw a checkdown and then rally up to make the tackle 10 yards short of the first down.  Been doing it for years, which is why they are one of the best 3rd down defenses and the best pass defense since McD has been here.  So you want to point out the 1 or 2 times out of 10 that it works for the offense but don't have anything say the 8 or 9 times it doesn't?  Pretty easy way to live I guess...

 

That is pretty much the Bills philosophy on D for the last 5 years...play sound technically, prevent deep throws and force the ball underneath so they can rally and make the tackle.  Which is why 21 of the last 35 games opponents have failed to pass the ball for 200 yards against us, which in the era of passing offenses and garbage time stats is absolutely absurd.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Big Turk

[Royale with Cheese]

How are people we didn't have two deep safeties on that call.  They both were deep.  Hill drew in Hamlin going over the middle which is why he was late getting to Waddle.

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How are people we didn't have two deep safeties on that call.  They both were deep.  Hill drew in Hamlin going over the middle which is why he was late getting to Waddle.

 

It was a good play design by the Fins also...their coaches get paid money too.

23 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

Serious question. Do you think it's easier to play Offense or Defense in 105 plus degree heat and humidity?

 

Even though the Bills pretty much moved the ball on those long 20 and 17 play drives they had to take their toll over quick strike 8-10 play drives. 

 

If it were McDaniel's intention to keep the Bills ON the field as long as possible during those oppressive conditions in the hopes of them stalling from exhaustion would've been a genius move.

 

Now,  that being said we are well aware the Bills had plenty of chances to score. But let's not ignore the fact that the offense was obviously gassed and just couldn't execute as cleanly as usual.

 

I think it probably is about equal when it's all said and done...the O was exhausted but the D was relatively fresh. Probably would have been better if was closer to 65 plays for O and 50 for the Fins

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How are people we didn't have two deep safeties on that call.  They both were deep.  Hill drew in Hamlin going over the middle which is why he was late getting to Waddle.

 

Hill was on the complete other side of the field and never went toward the middle. He ran a post.

 

Edmunds and Johnson were covering the middle anyway.

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Hill was on the complete other side of the field and never went toward the middle. He ran a post.

 

Edmunds and Johnson were covering the middle anyway.

 

There is no way Edmunds is getting 50 yards downfield on a drop. If he could, he would be the highest paid player in the NFL and would be a defensive  cheat code.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Big Turk

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Hill was on the complete other side of the field and never went toward the middle. He ran a post.

 

Edmunds and Johnson were covering the middle anyway.

 

How deep are you thinking Edmunds is going to drop?  

 

What do you think a post pattern is?  It was drawn up on the telecast as to why Hamlin was a little late getting to Waddle.  He was looking at Hill.

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

There is no way Edmunds is getting 50 yards downfield on a drop. If he could, he would be the highest paid player in the NFL and would be a defensive  cheat code.

 

Yep! 

[John from Riverside]

That is beyond a doubt the longest title on a thread I have ever seen on the board😎

[Big Turk]

12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

How deep are you thinking Edmunds is going to drop?  

 

What do you think a post pattern is?  It was drawn up on the telecast as to why Hamlin was a little late getting to Waddle.  He was looking at Hill.

 

Yep! 

 

I am going to just have to excuse myself from some of these conversations. Starting to get a little frustrating.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

26 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

It can be hard to have conversations sometimes about detailed things that are not apparent to casual fans because they can't understand why it is an issue or why those details matter.  This is clearly one of those times.  

 

So yes...a professional football team that was down to it's 3rd string center who normally plays guard and doesn't snap the ball was playing with 3 other backups, one of which was also out of position, while also dealing with extreme sweating which makes the ball much trickier to handle was having trouble executing it.  Newsflash, 31 other teams in the league when faced with the same circumstances would have struggled to do the same thing.  Not more than 1 or 2 of them would even be at the 1/2 yard line to begin with, so it would have been a moot point in terms of why they couldn't execute that because their QB would have probably been sacked or would be throwing the ball away every play so they would have been punting regularly after going 3 and out.

 

Young in terms of in game experience. They simply haven't had much of it.  Clearly you don't think that matters, which I guess is your right to think that, but most players and coaches will tell you it matters a LOT.  You can't simulate regular season games in training camp, practices or even pre-season games in terms of play calls, situations, speed of the game, opponent adjustments, etc..

 

Yes, and the vast majority of times they force the QB to throw a checkdown and then rally up to make the tackle 10 yards short of the first down.  Been doing it for years, which is why they are one of the best 3rd down defenses and the best pass defense since McD has been here.  So you want to point out the 1 or 2 times out of 10 that it works for the offense but don't have anything say the 8 or 9 times it doesn't?  Pretty easy way to live I guess...

 

That is pretty much the Bills philosophy on D for the last 5 years...play sound technically, prevent deep throws and force the ball underneath so they can rally and make the tackle.  Which is why 21 of the last 35 games opponents have failed to pass the ball for 200 yards against us, which in the era of passing offenses and garbage time stats is absolutely absurd.

So our backup Centers were competent enough to complete the 2nd, 3rd and 4th down snaps under pressure, but only if it was out of Shotgun?

 

Nice argument on the 31 other teams. The Bills get credit for “almost” and we state that no other team could possibly do what we did there knowing that we can’t of course test that theory.

 

What’s the average age of an NFL roster, 25-27? Don’t most teams consist of some youth at critical spots? Weren’t those guys in the same film room as Poyer and Hyde? Not crushing them, but experience or not it was a soft play call again, and we’ve seen that before. 

 

When the Bills make plays it’s because of Beane’s smarts and McDermott’s coaching. When they don’t it’s they’re young, hot, and nobody could execute that in the league.

 

Understood that’s their philosophy and keeping the Dolphins to 21 points is not a horrendous effort, considering 7 of those points were a gift from a weirdo play calling sequence from Dorsey that deflated the momentum from the 1st drive that ended in a TD and the defense giving the ball back to the offense. 
 

 

[Einstein]

33 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

There is no way Edmunds is getting 50 yards downfield on a drop. If he could, he would be the highest paid player in the NFL and would be a defensive  cheat code.

 

We weren’t talking about Edmunds covering Waddle 50 yards downfield.

We were talking about the middle of the field where the poster thought Hill was. About 15 yards or so.

 

29 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

How deep are you thinking Edmunds is going to drop?  

 

What do you think a post pattern is?  It was drawn up on the telecast as to why Hamlin was a little late getting to Waddle.  He was looking at Hill.

 

Yep! 

 

Yes he was looking at Waddle because the Dolphins put him in conflict due to the poor play design.

 

But he wasn’t in the middle of the field. No where close to it. He ran a corner right near the sideline. I said post before because I was thinking about Waddle. 

 

Taron and Edmunds were in the middle and Hill was never close to them. 

 

This left Waddle 1 on 1 with our backup safety. 

 

The problem with this play call is that it’s so easily beatable. If the Dolphins call ANY deep shot, we lose the down. McD/Frazier must have been betting on all short routes.

 

.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Einstein

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, uninja said:

You can play that game all day long though. When it came time to make a play, the Phins did. Can’t say the same for the Bills. 
 

On that Sunday, they were the better team on the field. They made less mistakes, made plays when they needed to and kept the Bills off balance. I don’t think they’re better than the Bills, but that’s why they play the games. 

 

It is "fewer" mistakes, not less. But I agree they made fewer mistakes. They also made fewer plays. They were not the better team. But they won. Sometimes that is football. 

11 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

So our backup Centers were competent enough to complete the 2nd, 3rd and 4th down snaps under pressure, but only if it was out of Shotgun?

 

Nice argument on the 31 other teams. The Bills get credit for “almost” and we state that no other team could possibly do what we did there knowing that we can’t of course test that theory.

 

What’s the average age of an NFL roster, 25-27? Don’t most teams consist of some youth at critical spots? Weren’t those guys in the same film room as Poyer and Hyde? Not crushing them, but experience or not it was a soft play call again, and we’ve seen that before. 

 

When the Bills make plays it’s because of Beane’s smarts and McDermott’s coaching. When they don’t it’s they’re young, hot, and nobody could execute that in the league.

 

Understood that’s their philosophy and keeping the Dolphins to 21 points is not a horrendous effort, considering 7 of those points were a gift from a weirdo play calling sequence from Dorsey that deflated the momentum from the 1st drive that ended in a TD and the defense giving the ball back to the offense. 
 

 

Eric Wood has said with your 3rd string centre you would be made to try a snap there from under center. I had never thought of it that way but I defer to him in that situation.

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

How deep are you thinking Edmunds is going to drop?  

 

What do you think a post pattern is?  It was drawn up on the telecast as to why Hamlin was a little late getting to Waddle.  He was looking at Hill.

 

The telecast said Hill but it wasn't Hill. Hill ran a go on the far side it was their third receiver who ran the decoy in cut to the middle of the field that attracted the eyes of the Bills safeties. 

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is "fewer" mistakes, not less. But I agree they made fewer mistakes. They also made fewer plays. They were not the better team. But they won. Sometimes that is football. 

 

Eric Wood has said with your 3rd string centre you would be made to try a snap there from under center. I had never thought of it that way but I defer to him in that situation.

 

What does Wood know? He was only a pro bowl caliber starting center on an NFL team. Most posters know FAR more than he does of the intricacies and nuances of NFL line play

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Good enough to drive the length of the field 12 plays, but 2nd-Goal from the 1-yard line, insurmountable.

[Royale with Cheese]

16 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Good enough to drive the length of the field 12 plays, but 2nd-Goal from the 1-yard line, insurmountable.

 

Eric Wood on WGR was talking about this.  Being at the 1 yard line at the goaline is the hardest snap to make.  It's because as soon as the ball is snapped, you're getting hit on both sides immediately.  If you don't have great chemistry with the QB, I believe Mancz our 3rd stringer center was in, it's a risk.  We already saw the miss snap with Van Rotten and now you're down to a 3rd stringer with the game on the line.

[Utah John]

4 hours ago, RiotAct said:

they held down the fort decently enough. Effectively held the Dolphins’ O to 14 pts.  (Granted, their O was only on the field for 20 minutes, but still…)

 

3 hours ago, uninja said:

 

 

I mean that by and large the Phins forced the Bills to play the game on their terms. Dink and dunk, get tired, let them creep towards the red zone, then clamp down. They kept the same blitz looks from the first half into the second, but dropped into zone coverages and took away the deep and middle of the field. Line play suffered as players went down and got tired, pressure came too fast, forcing Josh to take the dump offs and short passes they were giving up.

 

They knew we were tired and our offense was on the field too long. Have to get rid of the ball fast because the pressure is coming, can't wait for plays to develop, not enough bodies at WR to rotate in fresh guys so people are tired and can't sprint, get separation.

 

I highly doubt our offense came in there with a gameplan to play 12-16 play drives in sweltering heat as a means to shield our defense. There's playing ball control offense, and then there's the defense letting you wear yourself out so you can't close it out in the redzone because the drive just killed your offense because its so damn hot and you don't have bodies to rotate in.

I think it was actually the Bills plan to control the ball with all those short throws, keeping drives going and eating the clock, as complementary football -- to protect the defense which had so many subs playing. This is how the Bills held the explosive Dolphins to so few yards and under 20 minutes TOP.  The heat and humidity, plus Kumerow's injury, plus Hart's suspension, wrecked that plan, but I think it was an excellent plan. 

[Royale with Cheese]

31 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

We weren’t talking about Edmunds covering Waddle 50 yards downfield.

We were talking about the middle of the field where the poster thought Hill was. About 15 yards or so.

 

 

Yes he was looking at Waddle because the Dolphins put him in conflict due to the poor play design.

 

But he wasn’t in the middle of the field. No where close to it. He ran a corner right near the sideline. I said post before because I was thinking about Waddle. 

 

Taron and Edmunds were in the middle and Hill was never close to them. 

 

This left Waddle 1 on 1 with our backup safety. 

 

The problem with this play call is that it’s so easily beatable. If the Dolphins call ANY deep shot, we lose the down. McD/Frazier must have been betting on all short routes.

 

.

 

You said he ran a post route which is a route over the middle.

 

It wasn't Hill like Gunner said but it was another WR who Hamlin was looking at.  He doesn't know what route each guy is running.

 

That is simply not true that it's so easily beatable.  We had two safeties in the area, Waddle just beat them.  That's what speed does to a defense...its stretches them.  That's why they call it "stretching the field".  Hill is the most dangerous WR in the league and we held him to 2 catches for 33 yards with an entire secondary filled with back ups.  You can't win every down, every play.  You'll find anything to discredit the coaching and if there's one thing they are good at, it's coaching defense.  

 

The Dolphins punted 5 times in 8 possessions and one of their TD's was gifted to them by a strip sack on Allen.
The defense played very well in this game.  Quit trying to find any little thing to be negative on the Bills.  But, But, But they had the same yards per play as the Bills.

Get out of here with that crap.  Look at the whole picture not just one cherry picked stat.

[NewEra]

Now THAT’S a title!!

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You said he ran a post route which is a route over the middle.

 

It wasn't Hill like Gunner said but it was another WR who Hamlin was looking at.  He doesn't know what route each guy is running.

 

That is simply not true that it's so easily beatable.  We had two safeties in the area, Waddle just beat them.  That's what speed does to a defense...its stretches them.  That's why they call it "stretching the field".  Hill is the most dangerous WR in the league and we held him to 2 catches for 33 yards with an entire secondary filled with back ups.  You can't win every down, every play.  You'll find anything to discredit the coaching and if there's one thing they are good at, it's coaching defense.  

 

The Dolphins punted 5 times in 8 possessions and one of their TD's was gifted to them by a strip sack on Allen.
The defense played very well in this game.  Quit trying to find any little thing to be negative on the Bills.  But, But, But they had the same yards per play as the Bills.

Get out of here with that crap.  Look at the whole picture not just one cherry picked stat.

 

Speed always wins when you don’t scheme properly.

 

It was a poor defensive call. 9 of 11 defenders in front of the sticks and 3 of those 9 covering empty field.

 

There wasn’t 2 safeties in the area. One was on one side of the field and one was on the other. It’s a lot to ask the far side safety to get to the other side in time. That’s why what Hyde did in the playoffs against NE was so impressive - it’s rare.

 

So we essentially called a play where if ANY deep routes are ran, it would be 1 on 1 against a backup safety. Bad idea (as we found out the hard way).

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Speed always wins when you don’t scheme properly.

 

It was a poor defensive call. 9 of 11 defenders in front of the sticks and 3 of those 9 covering empty field.

 

There wasn’t 2 safeties in the area. One was on one side of the field and one was on the other. It’s a lot to ask the far side safety to get to the other side in time. That’s why what Hyde did in the playoffs against NE was so impressive - it’s rare.

 

So we essentially called a play where if ANY deep routes are ran, it would be 1 on 1 against a backup safety. Bad idea (as we found out the hard way).

 

They were in a cover 2.  There wasn't a far side safety because Waddle ran a post over the middle in between both safeties.  

Hamlin was late because he had his eyes on the decoy over the middle.  If he didn't bite on that decoy route, he would have been there to make a play.

 

Hamlin is 2 yards away from that ball as it's caught.  

 

It's not rare what Hyde did.  The catch was an unbelievable catch not that he was in the area.