Run conundrum

[Italian Bills]

I read every single of your post and i found them all very valid and correct. 
 

All the points and the reasons because our running game is, sorry for the adjective, putrid, are correct. 
 

So what to do in order to get a bit of improvement ? 
 

- build a better OL ? 
- increase the attempts not matter what ?

- less rotation between the three ? 
- use different run schemes ? 
- what else ? 
 

Something has to be done, because we are still just a step short to become really a nightmare to play against for every other team out there. 
 

I din’t know, we are fans, not professional coaches.. however we see this very clearly, i find it impossible that McD and his coordinators, that are professionals and experts, can’t see it and don’t find a way to fix it as soon as possible. 

 

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Daboll fell into this trap and now Dorsey is doing it too. At least Ken is taking some pressure off JA with all the dumpoffs. We've just never committed to good run blocking olineman or dynamic RB's. I have zero faith in us ever converting a 3rd & 1 or 4th & 1 without Josh having to do some stupid acrobatic play. If you want to enjoy 17's services for the next 10-12 years these coaches better figure it out. 

 

So I do think McDermott has a fascination with the zone running game in part because it always caused him issues as a Defensive Coordinator. It was the thing he found hardest to stop. When they got a bit of something going in the run game at the end of last season they went away from zone scheme and to more gap scheme. But then they hired Kromer and actually all the OL coaches they interviewed are primarily zone blocking guys (Kromer has done both in his career but they have been zone run heavy this season). I do think the reason for that is that they think a gap scheme is harder to mesh with their pass looks and maybe it makes them easier to read. You don't want to be Cincinnati where you watch them line up and pretty much know the play just by formation.

 

However, primarily it is on Beane to get better blockers. I didn't think we did enough on the Oline in free agency. I didn't think we did enough in the draft (a 6th round tackle) and I still don't think we have done enough now. Need better personnel up front for me and it is as simple as that.

Edited September 28, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Mr. WEO]

ANTONIO WILLIAMS IS AVAILABLE!!!!

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The three biggest problems in the run game are: Offensive Line. Offensive Line. Offensive Line.

I agree. Last season it seemed to be by design. Beane collected effective pass blockers at the expense of players who excelled at run blocking. There’s obviously a cost savings there versus players who are good at both.

 

But the OL changes in the off-season seemed to be a reversal where they added some better run blockers who aren’t as good in pass pro. Injuries have taken a toll so it’s tough to see how it’s really working out. The new direction was a concern of mine coming into the season though. I thought it might mean seeing the Bills utilize a traditional running game more, but I didn’t want that to come at the expense of Allen seeing more pressure and hits. 

[No_Matter_What]

14 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

A start would be to shorten the RB rotation. No idea why they rotate backs so much.  I don’t care if it’s Singletary or Moss, but pick one and stick with them. Rotate Cook in as the change of pace back. 
 

 

Not arguing your overall point, but at least vs Dolphins we didn't rotate them as much.

 

Snaps:

Singletary 67

Moss 16

Cook 11

 

Touches (running/receiving):

Singletary 18 (9/9)

Moss 5 (4/1)

Cook 5 (1/4)

 

Not exactly what you asking for, but not quite a rotation which people seem to think we had (I don't mean you specifically)

[pocoboy]

14 hours ago, Draconator said:

With a talent like Josh Allen, the temptation to use him as much as possible is just there. I agree we need more of a running game, but Josh's abilities makes the pass a much more attractive option. 

 

A pitcher can throw his fast ball every time at 103mph. They will start timing it.

 

You need a change-up. The argument is that quick aerial is a suitable change-up, and I would argue that Allen's consistency at that, while good, is not quite consistent enough to be completely effective (heck, see the McKenzie underthrow and one on 3rd & short vs TEN as two examples).

 

Competent rushing would be helpful.

[Mrbojanglezs]

Running game takes time and patience to develop. McDermott is so quick to take Singletary out of the lineup, also we are quick to throw it more because Josh is so talented and we are so used to being productive all the time so when runs are only netting 2-3 yards we just throw it.

[Draconator]

21 minutes ago, pocoboy said:

 

A pitcher can throw his fast ball every time at 103mph. They will start timing it.

 

You need a change-up. The argument is that quick aerial is a suitable change-up, and I would argue that Allen's consistency at that, while good, is not quite consistent enough to be completely effective (heck, see the McKenzie underthrow and one on 3rd & short vs TEN as two examples).

 

Competent rushing would be helpful.

 

Let me quote my post again, for the little people in the back...

 

Quote

With a talent like Josh Allen, the temptation to use him as much as possible is just there. I agree we need more of a running game, but Josh's abilities makes the pass a much more attractive option. 

 

[eball]

Say that five times fast.

 

[HoofHearted]

18 hours ago, PonyBoy said:

Interesting point.

It's funny how a Derrick Henry can make Ryan Tannehill look so very good, but Josh Allen's talent doesn't for our RB's as Henry for Tannehill has.

Not a slam on Allen, you just think with so much focus on Josh and the pass, the RB's would have a hey day when runs are called. 

If Allen wasn't a run threat himself I'd bet you'd see this as we'd see more light boxes. Because he is a run threat your can't afford to give us a light box because we have an extra blocker in the box on any given play.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

If Allen wasn't a run threat himself I'd bet you'd see this as we'd see more light boxes. Because he is a run threat your can't afford to give us a light box because we have an extra blocker in the box on any given play.

Do you have any idea why they aren't committing to running the ball vs light boxes in general though? Apparently they are running vs light boxes at a much lower frequency than in 2021. 

 

Also it looked like they were blocking a lot of inside zone vs Dolphins. Is that a function of the injuries?

[HoofHearted]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Do you have any idea why they aren't committing to running the ball vs light boxes in general though? Apparently they are running vs light boxes at a much lower frequency than in 2021. 

 

Also it looked like they were blocking a lot of inside zone vs Dolphins. Is that a function of the injuries?

I wasn't able to watch the Miami game yet, but I'd venture to guess we aren't seeing as many light boxes as we did last season. Teams had to honor our two home run threats on the outside. I don't think anyone views Gabe Davis as a home run threat worth committing help over the top to. He's not a burner, we've just done a really good job of schemeing him open on deep stuff and he's an excellent route runner for a big guy.

[Bob in STL]

18 hours ago, SCBills said:

They ran the ball ok against LA.  

 

Not so much against Tennessee.  

 

Im really hesitant to use the Miami game as much of a baseline for anything.  They blitzed almost every play, Miami had defenders all over the LOS, and any creativity and/or pulling linemen was lost when we started seeing the effects of the heat early on.  

It certainly seems like it’s a problem though.  
 

A start would be to shorten the RB rotation. No idea why they rotate backs so much.  I don’t care if it’s Singletary or Moss, but pick one and stick with them. Rotate Cook in as the change of pace back. 
 

Running against the blitz is not impossible.   You use trap blocking and run draw plays and delays, let the blitzers run past the tailback.  The running back rotation was due to heat, especially with Singletary getting so many passes.  

 

The 60 pass attempts put a huge toll on the OL and even more on the WRs especially Diggs and McKenzie went out on IVs and missed a lot of snaps.  With those two out we are much less scary.  Davis was getting back from an injury and did not have a good game.   I don't know why we didn't target Knox more, especially red zone?  Crowder was not a factor.  

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

ANTONIO WILLIAMS IS AVAILABLE!!!!

I remember getting laughed at when I suggested we draft Khalil Herbert. Another Virginia Tech Hokie

[FilthyBeast]

It's still early, but for all the talk about Aaron Kromer being some sort of savior that's gone out the window pretty quick because this oline looks worse than last year so far and being masked by JA17's ability to get the ball out quickly and evade pressure.

 

The bigger picture though is this oline is still pretty soft overall and lacking players who can physically dominate their one on one matchups regularly.

[pocoboy]

3 hours ago, Draconator said:

 

Let me quote my post again, for the little people in the back...

 

 

Apologies for being like "Man your post sucks to high hell lemme go to town debasing you."

 

Oh wait, it didn't.

 

Sorry for being respectful in offering an alternative viewpoint. I'll make sure not to quote respond to you again. Thanks.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

A lot of the issues running the ball are that it's run out of RPO's 

 

Would like to see actual run plays called and see how they do 

[HoofHearted]

15 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

A lot of the issues running the ball are that it's run out of RPO's 

 

Would like to see actual run plays called and see how they do 

Why do you think this is an issue?

[Solomon Grundy]

29 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

A lot of the issues running the ball are that it's run out of RPO's 

 

Would like to see actual run plays called and see how they do 

The Jags do it and James Robinson is killing it 

[Solomon Grundy]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The three biggest problems in the run game are: Offensive Line. Offensive Line. Offensive Line.

@GunnerBill, I think we need a RB with the combination of vision and speed. There was a run by Motor last week where he was supposed to run to the left. It was clogged, but he saw a cutback lane and tried to make it but didn’t have the speed to make the run