Challenges

[Livinginthepast]

The Allen fumble was pretty definitive. Ball was slapped out before the throw. The Davis one was closer but unfortunately not a catch.  I'm still not sure how Davis drops that because the defender is on the other side of the ball! 

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So I do think it would’ve been difficult to overturn the Davis play (and the saved timeout gave the Bills more of a chance at the end) I’m just surprised McDermott didn’t challenge. He has challenged much more obvious plays in the past, at least this one maybe had a chance of winning.

I’m really surprised the refs just gave a warning though when McDaniel challenged that play. It’s up to the coaches to know what can and can’t be challenged. To me that should’ve either resulted in them losing their challenge and a timeout or it should be a penalty 

 

I am sure it used to be a rule on challenging an unchallengeable play. Have they relaxed it? It used to be an immediate time out against. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He didn't complete the tuck or have the time to do so. Defender got it out in time. It is not a touchdown.

 

Zero chance it is overturned.

 

For a non-expert you are pretty nuch spot on. He has to make a move common to the game (which can include a tuck) or posses the ball long enough to do so. He didn't. Before he tuck away was complete the defender knocked the ball out. Incomplete.

 

3 hours ago, cle23 said:

 

It's not a drop,  but it's certainly not a catch either.  He didn't possess the ball long enough,  and wasn't able to complete the catch as the defender pulled it loose. 

 

That isn't a catch, ever, and 100% would have lost a challenge. 

 

There is no quantitative time component to completing the process.  Two steps with the ball and the ball is tucked to the chest when the defender makes the play on it.  I would like to see the complete play from more angles but the steps and the tuck should be all is needed.  I would like to hear an official breakdown but I agree the challenge is likely not to go their way.

[Niagara Dude]

9 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Couple of things: first, why wasn’t McDaniel penalized for trying to use a challenge when he couldn’t?

second, with all of the obvious plays that McDermott has challenged and lost in the past, why did he not challenge the potential touchdown to Davis? 

Sean is a very good HC ,  but he is not an elite or top 8 HC in this league because he struggles winning close games because of poor decisions.  He should have replaced Frazier after 13 secs last season and again yesterday our defence screws up a crucial 3rd and 22 by rushing only 3 men.  First off,  Miami's line was beat up and our best players on defence were our linemen with our secondary having rookies and backups. So you would think you would highlight your strength to expose their weakness and we did the opposite.

 

This was the biggest blunder call of the game because rushing 3 gave TUA  loads of time to scan the field and allow his speedy receivers to go over top of our safeties. Just look at Miami rushing minimum 4 and 5 guys on almost every play and they had a more healthy secondary. TUA was not playing that well, but you give any QB extra time in this league and they will find guys. 3rd and 22 cannot happened,  at the very most you allow something underneath and concede a long FG attempt. If the game is tied we most likely go and get go ahead FG on 4th down

 

When I saw only 3 guys rushing I knew a long down the field throw was coming and sure enough it happened. Just look at KC had only 13 secs to get into FG range and did it against our defence and we had over 1:25 SEC and could not make it past the 40 in time because Miami did not play it stupid/soft,  they remained aggressive.

 

If we ever want to get over the hump and win these close games you need to play to win and stop playing not to lose. I could see rushing 3 guys if were had some 10-14 point lead, but not when you're ahead only by 3 points.  Your never going to get home rushing only 3 and it needs to stop late in these close games,  I am sure TUA changed the play at the line when he saw only 3 guys rushing and told his guys to go deep. This is not rocket science ,  you want to help your young secondary out then you force the ball out quickly.

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

There is no quantitative time component to completing the process.  Two steps with the ball and the ball is tucked to the chest when the defender makes the play on it.  I would like to see the complete play from more angles but the steps and the tuck should be all is needed.  I would like to hear an official breakdown but I agree the challenge is likely not to go their way.

 

The tuck was not completed. You either need a football move or the time to complete a football move. In this instance I'd say he was still in the process of tucking it away when it was knocked out. Incomplete. Similarly if that is in the field of play I think it is called incomplete rather than a catch and a fumble. 

[Matt_In_NH]

9 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Couple of things: first, why wasn’t McDaniel penalized for trying to use a challenge when he couldn’t?

second, with all of the obvious plays that McDermott has challenged and lost in the past, why did he not challenge the potential touchdown to Davis? 

Because it would not have been reversed and they needed that timeout.  If he challenged and lost the timeout he would be criticized for that.   Some of the criticism is not warranted 

[Niagara Dude]

30 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

The Allen fumble was pretty definitive. Ball was slapped out before the throw. The Davis one was closer but unfortunately not a catch.  I'm still not sure how Davis drops that because the defender is on the other side of the ball! 

End of the day,  Davis is good but you cannot have enough great receivers who can make those impossible looking catches.  Bills need to sign OBJ to help take the pressure off of Diggs.  I don't trust Mckenzie and believe having OBJ/DAVIS and Diggs all on the field at once will force teams to have more db's in coverage which could help open up our running. That ball was there and Davis need to use his size to shield the defender. 

1 hour ago, Seoulofstone said:

Yeah the trouble is to overturn the on-field call it needs to be a clear error on replay. It was close. But in the alternate universe where McD challenges and loses the challenge, you can be sure that the same people who are upset about the lack of challenge are also making threads about the ‘wasted’ timeout from the challenge and how it probably cost us the game. Either way McD can’t win.

Not really because both announcers were also questioning if Davis got his foot down in time,  it was worth the challenge

[Matt_In_NH]

9 hours ago, Lost said:

I thought they should have taken another look at the JA fumble TBH

It was a clear as day fumble and they did review it.  Called Turnovers are not challengeable because they are automatically reviewed.  

[Niagara Dude]

37 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

The Allen fumble was pretty definitive. Ball was slapped out before the throw. The Davis one was closer but unfortunately not a catch.  I'm still not sure how Davis drops that because the defender is on the other side of the ball! 

That was a fumble,  his hand was empty going forward.

[Matt_In_NH]

9 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Jesus Christ. There is no way the Davis DROP was a catch. Holy *****. 

Agree.  People seem to think possession and two feet is enough because in this situation it would have benefited the bills.  If it was the other way around people would recall the rule better.  It’s just fan bias.   What could have flipped that play is Davis holding on.  

Edited September 26, 2022 by Matt_In_NH

[nkreed]

7 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Josh's arm definitely completed a defined throwing forward motion, but the ball was already gone!  The ball was flying through the air before Josh ever started his throwing motion; I think that one was definitely a fumble and would have been confirmed as such on review.

 

 

Automatically reviewed on all changes of possession.

3 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

It was a clear as day fumble and they did review it.  Called Turnovers are not challengeable because they are automatically reviewed.  

Like minds! 

[Orlando Buffalo]

8 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

Not a drop if defender chopped it out.  Gabe did enough, two steps, tucked to his chest and TD.  Defender's action came after TD  criteria was met and was therefore irrelevant.

If it had been called a TD on field I might have stood, but I am not confident, since it was called incomplete there is no way it gets overturned

[cle23]

44 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

There is no quantitative time component to completing the process.  Two steps with the ball and the ball is tucked to the chest when the defender makes the play on it.  I would like to see the complete play from more angles but the steps and the tuck should be all is needed.  I would like to hear an official breakdown but I agree the challenge is likely not to go their way.

 

He didn't take "two steps" though.  He did get 2 feet down, but he didn't take 2 steps then.  But if Davis had fallen over without the defender and lost control on the way to the ground, or even when hitting the ground, it's not a catch.  You have to maintain control through the catch.  He caught it with 2 feet down, but immediately had the ball slapped out.

40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The tuck was not completed. You either need a football move or the time to complete a football move. In this instance I'd say he was still in the process of tucking it away when it was knocked out. Incomplete. Similarly if that is in the field of play I think it is called incomplete rather than a catch and a fumble. 

 

I like your second statement here.  If that exact thing happens at the 50 yard line, it's incomplete and not a fumble.  

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Jesus H.!

In what universe is 500 yards of Offense, 41 minutes of TOP, a QB with 66% completions, 400 yards passing, 2TDs & no picks while the Defense, riddled with crippling injuries, holds an undefeated team to 220 yards and 1 gimme TD is “playing poorly”? Did we make mistakes? Yes. We -and every team in every game do. You’re obviously not a fan of this team. Why are you not posting on your teams’ message boards?

"Did we make mistakes?" ""Yes" "We and every team in every game do." That had to be one of the most disingenuous statements I've encountered here. Sir, we are talking about game changing mistakes. Not one or two either. Probably close to 10 mistakes that were absolutely game chambers or flat out inexcusable. No matter who is playing that just can't and shouldn't happen. Additionally, several if the devastating errors came from starters and leaders of the team. I'm not going to illustrate them all here. You stated several of them. Stats often don't paint an accurate picture. The Bills moved the ball and ultimately only scored 21 points which only 3 occurred in the 2nd half. I guess your standards are low for this team. I stand by the premise the Bills played poorly. In essence, their mistakes gave the game to the Dolphins. That's exactly how I saw the game. Miami didn't beat the Bills. The Bills beat themselves! Beating yourself equates to playing poorly...

[newcam2012]

7 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Jesus H.!

In what universe is 500 yards of Offense, 41 minutes of TOP, a QB with 66% completions, 400 yards passing, 2TDs & no picks while the Defense, riddled with crippling injuries, holds an undefeated team to 220 yards and 1 gimme TD is “playing poorly”? Did we make mistakes? Yes. We -and every team in every game do. You’re obviously not a fan of this team. Why are you not posting on your teams’ message boards?

.

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

.

I mean he is one of the most knowledgeable Bills person out there. 

[BillsGuru4]

I have been upset with our challenges for years. I love everything about our staff, except for the obvious lack of someone upstairs only focused on that. Gabe Davis got 2 feet down and made a football move before having the ball knocked loose. It’s 100% worth a challenge. Why is this never talked about by the Bills media or McDermott? He has enough on his plate, we need someone upstairs. 
 

GO BILLS!

 

 

[Simon Says]

Yeah, people upstairs are talking to him  but maybe they didn't believe it was a catch.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

6 minutes ago, BillsGuru4 said:

I have been upset with our challenges for years. I love everything about our staff, except for the obvious lack of someone upstairs only focused on that. Gabe Davis got 2 feet down and made a football move before having the ball knocked loose. It’s 100% worth a challenge. Why is this never talked about by the Bills media or McDermott? He has enough on his plate, we need someone upstairs. 
 

GO BILLS!

 

 

 

As long as you don't mind losing a TO as the likelihood of the call being over turned is low.  If you take your rose colored Bills fan glasses off you'd realize there isn't clear evidence to over turn the call.  If it had been called a catch to start with likely that too would not have been over turned.  IMO watching it live I didn't think it was a catch at all.

[Rc2catch]

I didn’t think it was a catch. And I do generally always side with the team on most stuff. 
But challenges have always been a bit of an issue imo