Poor coaching by McDermott is becoming a theme

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

The “but little johnny and susie does it too” argument?

 

 

According to who?

 

That’s the thing. Your opinion is that my opinions are “wild”. That doesn’t make it a fact. It means there is a difference of thought.

 

 

I write positive posts as well. You don’t focus on those however.

 

 

I expect adults to understand that their opinion is not fact and that others can disagree without mocking them.

 

Please show me your positive posts.  All I ever see is negativity and complaining from you.

[billsfan1959]

Just now, mannc said:

Whether it’s a catch or not, do you honestly think there is any chance that call gets reversed?  
 

Why doesn’t Davis (or any other Bill on the field) argue the call?

 

I wasn't arguing for or against a challenge or implying whether it would or would not have been overturned if it was challenged. I also am not one that has a big problem with McDermott's challenges.

 

I was originally replying to a poster who claimed it was contested at the point of the catch. It wasn't.

 

It was, as they say, a "bang-bang" play and I have no idea what Davis, or any other player, felt about it at that moment. I only know that the replay shows me that Davis did, in fact, catch the ball, tuck it away and control it, and get both feet on the turf before he lost control. 

 

I have no idea if it would have been overturned. I do know I have seen plenty of receptions in the endzone be ruled catches that didn't show any more convincing evidence than the replays on this reception.

 

As I said, I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

[FilthyBeast]

I've said all along that McDermott has a specific ceiling as a head coach which is directly tied to the fate of this team.And through the first 3 weeks it's been on full display, but now only magnified after the first loss of the 2022 campaign.

 

0-7 in one score games since 2020 means you have an inherent problem, and that's still being a soft football team that doesn't know how to respond in a heavyweight fight.

 

Playing prevent defense on a 3rd and 22 proves that this staff has learned nothing since the chiefs playoff game either as that's the one singular play that swung yesterday's game IMO.

 

I get that some of Bills mafia will never find fault with him and believe he should be here no matter what but I maintain this team will never go any further than the AFCCG with him.

[Logic]

I didn't read all 17 pages of this thread, probably because I don't hate myself, but...

Matt Milano dropped a pick-six.

Josh Allen skipped a pass off the ground to a wide open Isaiah McKenzie that would've given the Bills the lead with under two minutes left in the game.

Greg Van Roten botched a snap that could've given the Bills a field goal before halftime.

Tyler Bass missed a 38 yard kick.

If any one of the above things goes the other way, the Bills possibly win the game. If two of those things go the other way, the Bills almost certainly win the game. Solely blaming the coaches for the loss is nonsense.

I mean...blame the coaches if you want. Blame the players for the plays I just mentioned if you want. Blame the heat, injuries, and insane war of attrition if you want.

Me? I say it took a perfect storm of all of the above for the Bills to lose by two points. They'll be fine. They're the best team in the league. Get a grip.

P.S. Citing the "0-7 in close games" without mentioning that they've also won 20 games in a row by double digits and didn't punt in 4 of their last 7 games (which is the first time that's ever happened since 1939) is lame. Another way of saying "they're bad in close games!" is "the Bills either win huge or barely get beaten, and just about never get blown out or beaten by big margins". 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Logic

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

He should have challenged it.

 

I've seen that same play ruled as a TD in college and pros.

 

If the receiver cannot maintain possession by himself it is ruled a drop.

 

If the defender knocks the ball out after a catch and 2 feet down, I've seen it ruled a TD.

 

Even Trent Green said it looked like a TD.

 

Was McD saving his challenges for his challenge piggy bank ? You have challenges USE THEM !!!

 

I would have challenged it and I thought McD should have as well.  They may not have over turned it but I think that is a catch and I think it that situation it is worth taking the risk of losing a time out.  

 

The rule is:

 

a. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

b. touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

c. after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

 

He did both a and b.  The question is did he do c.  I think he does.  He turns upfield, even though he is already in the endzone, before the ball is knocked out. Not sure if he got a third step before the ball got knocked out but that would also qualify. Id like to see a replay on that to be sure because I am not positive on when the ball actually starts to come out and I only seen the replay once.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Scott7975

[Billsatlastin2018]

5 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, not sure what these guys are seeing, but that absolutely was not complete control on Davis's part.  Can't even pin that on Gabe, since he even turned to shield his body from the defender and put the ball in the hand furthest from the defender as he was bringing it in.  It was just a hell of a play by the Miami DB. 

The Pass Catch rule is still and obviously an ass!

 

The Rule should be only this:

 

The Receiver has complete possession (not transferring/ bobbling) of the football with one or both hands, as he TOUCHES the ground with both feet or toes in bounds and prior to exiting the field of play.

 

PERIOD!

 

What happens after- bobbling it, falling out of bounds or the End Zone End Line, getting it knocked out of his hand(s)… whatever else…all this is post catch.

[Dr. K]

4 minutes ago, Logic said:

I didn't read all 17 pages of this thread, probably because I don't hate myself, but...

Matt Milano dropped a pick-six.

Josh Allen skipped a pass off the ground to a wide open Isaiah McKenzie that would've given the Bills the lead with under two minutes left in the game.

Greg Van Roten botched a snap that could've given the Bills a field goal before halftime.

Tyler Bass missed a 38 yard kick.

If any one of the above things goes the other way, the Bills possibly win the game. If two of those things go the other way, the Bills almost certainly win the game. Solely blaming the coaches for the loss is nonsense.

I mean...blame the coaches if you want. Blame the players for the plays I just mentioned if you want. Blame the heat, injuries, and insane war of attrition if you want.

Me? I say it took a perfect storm of all of the above for the Bills to lose by two points. They'll be fine. They're the best team in the league. Get a grip.

P.S. Citing the "0-7 in close games" without mentioning that they've also won 20 games in a row by double digits and didn't punt in 4 of their last 7 games (which is the first time that's ever happened since 1939) is lame. Another way of saying "they're bad in close games!" is "the Bills either win huge or barely get beaten, and just about never get blown out or beaten by big margins". 

P.P.S. As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I immediately knew who the author was without even looking. Classic Einstein. 💩

Thank You. The amount of nonsense posted on this board is painful. Reminds me of the saying, "The average person is not very smart, and half of the people are dumber than that."

[Matt_In_NH]

The game yesterday was controlled more by player execution than by coaching (unlike the KC playoff game)

 

1.  Davis catch in end zone - player execution

2.  Center QB snap - player execution

3.  Block FG - player execution

4.  Missing McKenzie on 4th and one - player execution

5.  Not catching an obvious pick six - player execution

 

Any close game you can go and find "calls" that did not work that you can pick on and criticize, some might deserve it.  But the loss was due to execution vs coaching at the end of the day.  Lack of execution could be explained by the weather.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Matt_In_NH

[Solomon Grundy]

39 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I don’t believe the Bills are poorly coached, not one bit. Do the coaches have moments that don’t put the team in the most advantageous situation? Sure, but the same could be said for every coaching staff in the history of the game. Those moments are more outliers than the norm, hence the team’s success and scoring margin. Don’t forget we went through 17 years of futility and irrelevancy, don’t get spoiled by success.

I agree with this. My problem is the decision making at times. Like when to take TOs, when to challenge, etc. My other question was after the butt punt. Who’s the more dynamic return man, Crowder or Lil Dirty? I feel like in game winning situations you go all out in order to secure the victory 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 minute ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

The Pass Catch rule is still and obviously an ass!

 

The Rule should be only this:

 

The Receiver has complete possession (not transferring/ bobbling) of the football with one or both hands, as he TOUCHES the ground with both feet or toes in bounds and prior to exiting the field of play.

 

PERIOD!

 

What happens after- bobbling it, falling out of bounds or the End Zone End Line, getting it knocked out of his hand(s)… whatever else…all this is post catch.

That is great but it is not the rule and just your opinion of what you think the rule should be.  I and I a am sure other disagree.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

Josh in the shotgun on 2nd and goal from inside the one isn't a problem for you?  A 6'5" 250 lb QB can't get less than a yard on a QB sneak with 3 cracks at it? 

 

And given some of the stupid challenges I've seen McD make, to not challenge the Gabe catch/no catch is mind boggling.  Even the announcers were arguing he had 2 feet down before the ball came out. That play potentially puts points on the board.  It's not like it was just challenging some 5 yard catch at your own 30, which wouldn't even be a first down.

3rd and 22 with a 3-man rush is on the coaching staff.

 

Having Josh in the shotgun on 2nd and goal from inside the one is on the coaching staff.

 

Not challenging the Gabe catch/no catch considering some of the dumb challenges McD has done, especially when the announcers were arguing he had 2 feet down before the ball came out, is on the coaching staff.

 

Making Josh throw the ball 63 times in a game is on the coaching staff.

 

Sal C and Eric Wood explained this.  They had put Josh in shot gun because our 3rd string center is actually a guard and gets no practice in snapping the ball.  Wood said this is very common because teams dont have enough practice time for all of that.  They do this so there isnt a bad exchange of the football like even our second string center who is actually a center had a few bad exchanges in two different games.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Scott7975

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I would have challenged it and I thought McD should have as well.  They may not have over turned it but I think that is a catch and I think it that situation it is worth taking the risk of losing a time out.  

 

The rule is:

 

a. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

b. touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

c. after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so. 

 

 

He did both a and b.  The question is did he do c.  I think he does.  He turns upfield, even though he is already in the endzone, before the ball is knocked out. Not sure if he got a third step before the ball got knocked out but that would also qualify. Id like to see a replay on that to be sure because I am not positive on when the ball actually starts to come out and I only seen the replay once.

My take is the same as yours.  He maintains control when both feet touch the ground.  At that point, it's a touchdown since both stills from the replay shows he had already tucked the ball away when his first (left) foot touches the ground and still has it tucked away in the same arm when his second (right) foot touches.

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Sal C and Eric Wood explained this.  They had put Josh in shot gun because our 3rd string center is actually a guard and gets no practice in snapping the ball.  Wood said this is very common because teams dont have enough practice time for all of that.  They do this so there isnt a bad exchange of the football like even our second string center who is actually a center had a few bad exchanges in two different games.

I'm not buying that either.  I would argue it's easier for a replacement center to snap the ball under center than in shotgun.  I've seen backup centers snap the dang ball over the QB's head in shotgun formation and it results in either a turnover or a huge loss of yardage.

[WideLeft]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

 Because worst case scenario, we have an extra long timeout at a time of need.

 

That was a 15+ play drive and there were literally injury timeouts because our linemen were getting overheated.

 

We were close to the endzone and in a pivotal point in the game. Would an extended timeout that could potentially result in a touchdown, or at worst give our players a much needed break be a bad thing? I don’t think so.

 

It would have been a much more efficient use of a timeout than the one we took on the very next drive, closer to midfield, and on a random first down.

Except that it wasn't a catch, and thus, by the original poster's logic would be an indefensible action by a Head Coach he is questioning.  

 

What you are describing above is calling a strategic timeout.  OK, fair enough.  Not a bad idea.  Not really a great one to burn timeouts either.  Timeouts came in handy at the end of the game.  Not sure burning another one would have been all that smart.  But it makes some sense as well.  

 

Bottom line is this.  The challenge in the Titans game was fine.  He had very little time to challenge the play, and quite frankly the angles that were first made available seemed like the Titans player didn't get two feet down.  He challenged on his gut feel and from replays in the stadium.  So be it.  He lost one.  Early in the game.  Not all that big of a deal.

 

And yesterday, he could have challenged the Davis play.  He would have lost the challenge.  The catch was not completed.  It was close, but there's no way that would have been overruled.  It certainly wouldn't have been a brutal attempt at a challenge.  But he didn't.  Big Deal.  They had plenty of chances to win that game yesterday.  I thought despite some mistakes, that every coach makes, in every NFL game every week, the Bills staff did pretty well yesterday all things considered.   They dominated offensively.  They dominated defensively.  They just couldn't finish.   Pains me to say that, because I'm no Leslie Frazier fan by any means.  But really, they played pretty well considering the roster.  

 

Losing close games is starting to be a concern for sure.  A couple of challenges here and there so far this year is pretty stupid if you ask me.  The potential challenge yesterday was by no means clear cut.  Especially when the call on the field was made the other way. 

 

What really irks me about yesterday, is that I thought the Dolphins were going to roll the Bills.  How could a team that has Tyreek Hill, Waddle, and Geisicki not?  Well, Tua still isn't all that great.  Miami is mediocre.  Period.  If Josh was the Miami QB, they would have scored 50 on the Bills.  I fell into the trap that the Dolphins were a better team than they are.  They really aren't.  And when I realized that this Dolphins team was just mediocre again, it kind of pissed me off that we lost a game to an inferior opponent even though we were ridiculously banged up. 

 

The Bills will slowly get healthier, and steamroll through the back end of their schedule.  It's going to be a bumpy road the next couple of weeks.  Just hope it doesn't cost them homefield advantage in the playoffs.  They will roll Miami in December.    

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

If anyone choked yesterday it was Josh. Not McDermott.

It’s as if you don’t understand the concept of “track record”

[Scott7975]

18 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

I've said all along that McDermott has a specific ceiling as a head coach which is directly tied to the fate of this team.And through the first 3 weeks it's been on full display, but now only magnified after the first loss of the 2022 campaign.

 

0-7 in one score games since 2020 means you have an inherent problem, and that's still being a soft football team that doesn't know how to respond in a heavyweight fight.

 

Playing prevent defense on a 3rd and 22 proves that this staff has learned nothing since the chiefs playoff game either as that's the one singular play that swung yesterday's game IMO.

 

I get that some of Bills mafia will never find fault with him and believe he should be here no matter what but I maintain this team will never go any further than the AFCCG with him.

 

That wasnt prevent defense.  They started in single high safety and rolled into cover 2 after the snap.

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, WideLeft said:

Except that it wasn't a catch, and thus, by the original poster's logic would be an indefensible action by a Head Coach he is questioning.  

 

What you are describing above is calling a strategic timeout.  OK, fair enough.  Not a bad idea.  Not really a great one to burn timeouts either.  Timeouts came in handy at the end of the game.  Not sure burning another one would have been all that smart.  But it makes some sense as well.  

 

Bottom line is this.  The challenge in the Titans game was fine.  He had very little time to challenge the play, and quite frankly the angles that were first made available seemed like the Titans player didn't get two feet down.  He challenged on his gut feel and from replays in the stadium.  So be it.  He lost one.  Early in the game.  Not all that big of a deal.

 

And yesterday, he could have challenged the Davis play.  He would have lost the challenge.  The catch was not completed.  It was close, but there's no way that would have been overruled.  It certainly wouldn't have been a brutal attempt at a challenge.  But he didn't.  Big Deal.  They had plenty of chances to win that game yesterday.  I thought despite some mistakes, that every coach makes, in every NFL game every week, the Bills staff did pretty well yesterday all things considered.   They dominated offensively.  They dominated defensively.  They just couldn't finish.   Pains me to say that, because I'm no Leslie Frazier fan by any means.  But really, they played pretty well considering the roster.  

 

Losing close games is starting to be a concern for sure.  A couple of challenges here and there so far this year is pretty stupid if you ask me.  The potential challenge yesterday was by no means clear cut.  Especially when the call on the field was made the other way. 

 

What really irks me about yesterday, is that I thought the Dolphins were going to roll the Bills.  How could a team that has Tyreek Hill, Waddle, and Geisicki not?  Well, Tua still isn't all that great.  Miami is mediocre.  Period.  If Josh was the Miami QB, they would have scored 50 on the Bills.  I fell into the trap that the Dolphins were a better team than they are.  They really aren't.  And when I realized that this Dolphins team was just mediocre again, it kind of pissed me off that we lost a game to an inferior opponent even though we were ridiculously banged up. 

 

The Bills will slowly get healthier, and steamroll through the back end of their schedule.  It's going to be a bumpy road the next couple of weeks.  Just hope it doesn't cost them homefield advantage in the playoffs.  They will roll Miami in December.    

 

Several of us disagree with your opinion that it wasn’t a catch.

[WideLeft]

7 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

My take is the same as yours.  He maintains control when both feet touch the ground.  At that point, it's a touchdown since both stills from the replay shows he had already tucked the ball away when his first (left) foot touches the ground and still has it tucked away in the same arm when his second (right) foot touches.

I'm not buying that either.  I would argue it's easier for a replacement center to snap the ball under center than in shotgun.  I've seen backup centers snap the dang ball over the QB's head in shotgun formation and it results in either a turnover or a huge loss of yardage.

How do you not buy something that a really good former center just explained?  I've been watching football for about 40 years, and can really count on one hand the number of times "backup centers snap the dang ball over the QB's head in shotgun formation and it results in either a turnover or huge loss of yardage".  It's definitely happened before, but it really doesn't happen all that often.  Hell, I could just as easily say that I've seen backup centers have bad snaps with the QB under center as well.  Hell, it happened yesterday.  I'm going with Eric Wood on this one.

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

That wasnt prevent defense.  They started in single high safety and rolled into cover 2 after the snap.

I mean whatever you want to call it, it was the wrong call.  If your secondary is depleted with injuries, the last thing you want to do is give the opposing QB time to find a hole.  The way you do that is with pressure, which is supposed to be a strength of this team this season, but when you're only rushing 3, I really hope they weren't expecting any sort of pressure that would force Tua into an early/bad throw.

[Scott7975]

9 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

My take is the same as yours.  He maintains control when both feet touch the ground.  At that point, it's a touchdown since both stills from the replay shows he had already tucked the ball away when his first (left) foot touches the ground and still has it tucked away in the same arm when his second (right) foot touches.

I'm not buying that either.  I would argue it's easier for a replacement center to snap the ball under center than in shotgun.  I've seen backup centers snap the dang ball over the QB's head in shotgun formation and it results in either a turnover or a huge loss of yardage.

 

I do buy it.  Look how much trouble our 2nd string center had.  The guy snapping the ball after our 2nd string wasnt even a center.  He is a guard.  Snapping the ball may seem like an easy thing to do but its not.  There is a lot of timing involved which is why we had several miscues on snaps over 2 games.  Our 3rd stringer had no practice with it.  You obviously dont agree but Ill listen to the guy that had been a great center for us for a long time.

[WideLeft]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Several of us disagree with your opinion that it wasn’t a catch.

I get it.  And several don't disagree.  I guess we will wait for the NFL apology today on the play?

Edited September 26, 2022 by WideLeft