NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

[Southern_Bills]

2 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

It's not preventing the injury, it's what happened afterwards. Big Turk stated that , on WGR, they said he was injured in the game but carried on playing. As atlbillsfan1975 asked, I'm not sure if the Bills were aware or Doyle complained of injury until after the game.

 

I was unaware of that information, but I can see where it went unnoticed. 

 

I still remember Jordy Nelson tearing his ACL in preseason and walking off like nothing happened, same for Carson Wentz years later, even ran a TD in after the injury. 

 

If they knew, which I doubt, that's bad. 

 

The Tua thing was a week long commitment to a lie.

[Andy1]

Sound like Tua should be out for the season. We’ll see what happens. 

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

Sound like Tua should be out for the season. We’ll see what happens. 

 

Oh look @GunnerBill another Neurosurgeon agrees

[WideNine]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Hmmm good question.  I think thats a grey area because I think the penalties arent even called right half the time.  There are a lot of head shots never called for instance. Some of them are even fined after not being called on the field.  Others seem to me a weak call.  For instance I thought the Milano call was weak.  Im sure its a penalty by definition but I see that also go uncalled all the time.  I believe that shove caused a concussion and I was ok with the flag but it seems pretty weak to throw someone out of a game and or suspend them for.

 

Also, looking at the play that actually put Tua on a stretcher and in concussion protocol, there wasnt anything dirty about it.  Not a penalty.  Yet it caused a concussion. Does that guy now get a suspension for it?  I dunno.  A little grey.

Also once someone has a few concussions a love tap can cause another.

 

Seen this in hockey for years.

 

Hard to penalize a player or think it is malicious when hitting the boards or the ground just comes with the game.

 

Now Wilkins trying to take Knox's head off on a blindside tackle yes.

 

Shameful how Miami handled this. Not a person on this board believed the back spasm narrative.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by WideNine

[Neo]

12 hours ago, DaggersEOD said:

Exactly this. 
 

The issue is, he was never e v a l’d for a concussion after the hit, on the sidelines. They walked him right into the locker room and probably gave him smelling salts until he came to. 
 

They told the “independent neurosurgeon” that he had a back injury which the Doctor cleared him of.

 

There is no way he passed a concussion e v a l. They didn’t do one because they called it something else. 
 

Is there a way to confirm with the game footage out there? Can we see him going to a tent to be evaluated? 

I was there.   I wasn’t documenting, so there’s room for error, but I have a clear memory of him going straight to the locker room.

[Low Positive]

29 minutes ago, Andy1 said:

Sound like Tua should be out for the season. We’ll see what happens. 

Unless the NFL steps in for PR reasons, Tua will play next Sunday.

[UKBillFan]

10 minutes ago, WideNine said:

Also once someone has a few concussions a love tap can cause another.

 

Seen this in hockey for years.

 

Hard to penalize a player or think it is malicious when hitting the boards or the ground just comes with the game.

 

Now Wilkins trying to take Knox's head off on a blindside tackle yes.

 

Shameful how Miami handled this. Not a person on this board believed the back spasm narrative.

 

 

 

 

 

If they're honest, I doubt many Dolphins fans believe the back spasm excuse either.

[Rat-boy]

17 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

If they're honest, I doubt many Dolphins fans believe the back spasm excuse either.

I am often very surprised what many Dolphin fans believe based on their posts on this board, actually. Not calling anyone out by handle, but we all know who they are. 😀

[Nextmanup]

Here's the language from the concussion protocol. 

 

If you read it carefully, you will see why the Dolphins invented the story that Tua had a bad back; they were looking for an orthopedic "cause" of his Gross Motor Instability, so that they could argue it was OK for him to return to the game.

 

Had they conceded that the Gross Motor Instability we all saw was the result of a neurological condition (hit to head) and not an orthopedic cause, Tua would have fallen immediately into the "NO GO" provision, meaning, he could not return to the game, regardless if he may have been "cleared" during inspection at halftime.  But obviously they wanted him to return, regardless of his actual condition.  

 

"No-Go" Signs and Symptoms.

 

If a player exhibits or reports any of the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room. If a neutral sideline observer or a member of the player's club's medical team observes a player exhibit or receives a report that a player has experienced any of the following signs or symptoms, the player shall be considered to have suffered a concussion and may not return to participation (practice or play) on the same day under any circumstances:

 

1) Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or "fencing posture")

 

2)  Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC, who observe the player's behavior, have access to the player's relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for any observed instability

 

3) Confusion

 

4 )Amnesia

 

https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol

[Captain Caveman]

23 minutes ago, Neo said:

I was there.   I wasn’t documenting, so there’s room for error, but I have a clear memory of him going straight to the locker room.

 

I think he went straight to the locker room because it was so close to halftime.

2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

 

 

2)  Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC, who observe the player's behavior, have access to the player's relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for any observed instability

 

 

The underlined text is kind of ***** up, because it's basically saying that if they can't rule out an orthopedic cause (even if they can't confirm it's an orthopedic cause) then they get to use that as an excuse to put him back in.

 

Am I reading it right?

[Rat-boy]

Just saw this - very good read, and apologies in advance if someone posted this in one of the other threads where this topic is coming up.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/09/30/tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol-loophole-exposed

 

 

[Nextmanup]

7 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

 

I think he went straight to the locker room because it was so close to halftime.

 

The underlined text is kind of ***** up, because it's basically saying that if they can't rule out an orthopedic cause (even if they can't confirm it's an orthopedic cause) then they get to use that as an excuse to put him back in.

 

Am I reading it right?

That's one way to interpret the rule for sure.  

 

I think the spirit of the rule is saying that if you see a player stumbling around punch drunk, or falling to the ground in a state of imbalance, he has to be removed from any further playing that day, unless you can show the GMI was "orthopedic" in nature, meaning, unrelated to head injury.

 

If you can rule out the orthopedic cause, he has to come out.

 

Miami basically invented an orthopedic cause to get around this rule which is sort of a de facto "thou shalt not return" type of rule, given what we all saw Tua doing on the field.

 

 

 

[WideNine]

10 minutes ago, Rat-boy said:

Just saw this - very good read, and apologies in advance if someone posted this in one of the other threads where this topic is coming up.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/09/30/tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol-loophole-exposed

 

 

I am a bit tired of seeing the "Milano slamming his head into the turf" exaggeration.

 

Milano shoved him while turning away and Tua fell backwards and hit his own head in the turf.

 

QBs get "the shove" after a throw many times and go down and make contact with the turf.

 

Allen has played a few of those up to draw late hit flags... a few times it has worked.

 

Most QB's after those don't go full bobble-head concussed unless there are already some underlying  issues.

 

This was hardly head-hunting by Milano. It was the "meh" hit followed by the extreem effect on Tua that made me think concussion right out of the gate...and not his first one either.

 

 

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

4 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

 

Yeah, I mean I could be wrong here.....but I can't recall a single instance seeing any player that got up stumbling after hitting his head on the ground getting cleared from protocol in that short amount of time even if it turned out to not be a concussion.

Only example I could think of is Tom Savage with the Texans. He was allowed to stay in for a play or two clearly hurt 

 

This article has a few examples 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/texans-tom-savage-briefly-returns-despite-suffering-scary-looking-concussion/amp/

 

[Rat-boy]

5 minutes ago, WideNine said:

I am a bit tired of seeing the "Milano slamming his head into the turf" exaggeration.

 

Milano shoved him while turning away and Tua fell backwards and hit his own head in the turf.

 

QBs get "the shove" after a throw many times and go down and make contact with the turf.

 

Allen has played a few of those up to draw late hit flags... a few times it has worked.

 

Most QB's after those don't go full bobble-head concussed unless there are already some underlying  issues.

 

This was hardly head-hunting by Milano. It was the "meh" hit followed by the extreem effect on Tua that made me think concussion right out of the gate...and not his first one either.

 

 

 

 

Yep, he didn’t tuck his chin. Someone told me QBs are taught to do that when pushed backwards…I can’t speak for the veracity of this claim though.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Only example I could think of is Tom Savage with the Texans. He was allowed to stay in for a play or two clearly hurt 

 

This article has a few examples 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/texans-tom-savage-briefly-returns-despite-suffering-scary-looking-concussion/amp/

 

Yeah but Savage briefly came back and then went to locker room. Tua just finished the game. But I still see what you mean

[Scott7975]

39 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Here's the language from the concussion protocol. 

 

If you read it carefully, you will see why the Dolphins invented the story that Tua had a bad back; they were looking for an orthopedic "cause" of his Gross Motor Instability, so that they could argue it was OK for him to return to the game.

 

Had they conceded that the Gross Motor Instability we all saw was the result of a neurological condition (hit to head) and not an orthopedic cause, Tua would have fallen immediately into the "NO GO" provision, meaning, he could not return to the game, regardless if he may have been "cleared" during inspection at halftime.  But obviously they wanted him to return, regardless of his actual condition.  

 

"No-Go" Signs and Symptoms.

 

If a player exhibits or reports any of the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room. If a neutral sideline observer or a member of the player's club's medical team observes a player exhibit or receives a report that a player has experienced any of the following signs or symptoms, the player shall be considered to have suffered a concussion and may not return to participation (practice or play) on the same day under any circumstances:

 

1) Loss of Consciousness (including Impact Seizure and/or "fencing posture")

 

2)  Gross Motor Instability (GMI), identified in the judgment of the club medical staff in consultation with the Sideline UNC, who observe the player's behavior, have access to the player's relevant history and are able to rule out an orthopedic cause for any observed instability

 

3) Confusion

 

4 )Amnesia

 

https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol

 

Yep basically said the same thing in a couple threads.

[Captain Hindsight]

5 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Yeah but Savage briefly came back and then went to locker room. Tua just finished the game. But I still see what you mean

Right, only example I could think of. It’s unheard of. Tua was clearly concussed and for them to put him back in? Gross negligence 

[Bray Wyatt]

13 minutes ago, Rat-boy said:

Yep, he didn’t tuck his chin. Someone told me QBs are taught to do that when pushed backwards…I can’t speak for the veracity of this claim though.

Wrestlers are taught to do this when taking bumps so this doesn’t happen, it doesn’t seem far fetched for this info to be relayed to qbs 

[Nextmanup]

29 minutes ago, WideNine said:

I am a bit tired of seeing the "Milano slamming his head into the turf" exaggeration.

 

Milano shoved him while turning away and Tua fell backwards and hit his own head in the turf.

 

QBs get "the shove" after a throw many times and go down and make contact with the turf.

 

Allen has played a few of those up to draw late hit flags... a few times it has worked.

 

Most QB's after those don't go full bobble-head concussed unless there are already some underlying  issues.

 

This was hardly head-hunting by Milano. It was the "meh" hit followed by the extreem effect on Tua that made me think concussion right out of the gate...and not his first one either.

 

 

 

 

Tua doesn't have a history of TBI going back to 2018.

 

He may have something from high school or even earlier, but I can't find a record of that.

 

It could be that he is just predisposed to having this sort of problem, and as soon as he gets hit, the condition reveals itself.

 

Now that he got injured twice in 4 days, his next one is likely to come even easier and the effects might be more severe.

 

If you were him, when would you go back to playing?  It's a tough decision to make.  I think I'd sit out a solid month.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Golden*Wheels said:

The injury in our game WAS reported as a head injury by the Dolphins BEFORE mysteriously becoming a back issue, wasn't it?

YES IT WAS!  And quite a while later changed to "back issue."   

 

Good point.