Johnson, Hamlin, a Vet trade?

[Sherlock Holmes]

11 hours ago, Wizard said:

Damn. Losing Hyde really hurts from his talent, professionalism, and as a true culture creator of the Bills' identity and defense.

 

I think Johnson is a serviceable starter and Hamlin gives alright depth.

 

Any safety vets on non-playoff teams that may reasonably be looked at in a trade?

Harrison Smith

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, SCBills said:

Why is he always so annoying?  I find highly improbable that Mark Gaughan reported on the significance of the injury mid-week, but the Bills were caught off guard.  
 

The guy replacing him has been in the system for years.  
 

Not sure why “this would hit Bills harder than most”. 

 

  

 

 

Because he's one of their better players. Because it's a season ender. Because he's arguably one of the most important ... say seven players on this team.

 

Why wouldn't it hit hard?

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Because he's one of their better players. Because it's a season ender. Because he's arguably one of the most important ... say seven players on this team.

 

Why wouldn't it hit hard?

“harder than most” is what he said… which makes no sense for a team as loaded as we are, with his backup being a guy who (according to everyone in the building) has been ready to start for over a year.

 

Hyde is a big loss, but most teams don’t have a fourth year in the same system Jaquan Johnson behind their starting safety. 

[ArtVandalay]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

There is no strawman every team in the league does this you cannot have a highly paid player at every position there’s this thing called the salary cap therefore you have to draft them and then groom them  The bills decided to invest their draft picks on the dl

 

every team Hast to pick and choose where those investments are going to go pass rush was the right route

When i say we have ignored backup safety and it is the weakest part of our roster, and you respond by saying not everyone can be an all pro, that is the literal definition of a strawman argument.

 

And now you just did it again saying you can't have a highly paid player at every position lol. 

 

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/

 

What is a straw man argument?

A straw man argument, sometimes called a straw person argument or spelled strawman argument, is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. In creating a straw man argument, the arguer strips the opposing point of view of any nuance and often misrepresents it in a negative light. 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

Umm... sorry but there is a MASSIVE gap between Johnson and Hyde athletically, pull their profiles on Playerprofiler.com ... Johnson is near bottom percentile in every athletic measurement, plus he's undersized.  Not a good combo. Hyde is bigger eh 4.56 speed, Johnson is small with 4.69 speed.  Eesh.

 

 

Massive is really overstating it.

 

The 40 times are quite different.

 

But a lot of their other numbers are not that different.

 

Micah Broad jump 10'01"

Jaquan Broad jump 10'01"

 

Micah Vertical Jump 33 3/8

Jaquan Vertical Jump 33 3/4

 

Micah 40 yard dash 10 yard split 1.65 (ET) and 1.59 (HH)

Jaquan 40 yard dash 10 yard split 1.63 (ET) and 1.57 (HH)

 

Micah 40 yard dash 20 yard split 2.70 (ET) and 2.55 (HH)

Jaquan 40 yard dash 20 yard split  2.69 (ET) and 2.59 (HH)

 

Micah 20 yard shuttle 4.20

Jaquan 20 yard shuttle 4.18

 

Micah 225 Bench Press Reps: 12

Jaquan 225 Bench Press Reps: 18

 

Micah 3-cone 6.78 Combine and 6.67 Pro day

Jaquan 3-cone 7.20 Pro day

 

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1003103&DraftYear=2019

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=94008&DraftYear=2013

 

 

 

Again, "massive" is really an overstatement.

[Thurman#1]

41 minutes ago, SCBills said:

“harder than most” is what he said… which makes no sense for a team as loaded as we are, with his backup being a guy who (according to everyone in the building) has been ready to start for over a year.

 

Hyde is a big loss, but most teams don’t have a fourth year in the same system Jaquan Johnson behind their starting safety. 

 

 

What are you talking about? He didn't mention a thing about who would replace him.

 

Yes, of course he said it "will hit [the Bills] a bit harder than most." Because he's one of our best and most important players not to mention best leaders and most liked, this will indeed be tough on them.

 

Where in the world is the big problem with that?

 

Not to mention that as was noted, this is an injury with an uncertain recovery like the one that forced Aaron Williams into very early retirement.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

Backup saftey is the biggest hole on this roster, has been for years, we have competely ignored it and now that is about to rear its ugly head. 

 

We are going to need a trade. I will be floored if Johnson or Hamlin is anything less than exploited.

 

 

Nonsense that this was "completely ignored." We drafted Jaquan Johnson in the 6th. And Damar Hamlin in the 6th

 

I mean, maybe we could have thrown a bit more into it. I mean, they could have drafted a 5th rounder instead of a 6th. A 5th rounder like Micah Hyde, maybe. Or a 7th rounder like Poyer.

 

You don't like these new guys. Fair enough. But they didn't ignore the position. They just appear to have a very different view than you do about how good the backups are. We'll see who's right as the youngsters start to get some experience.

[John from Riverside]

36 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

When i say we have ignored backup safety and it is the weakest part of our roster, and you respond by saying not everyone can be an all pro, that is the literal definition of a strawman argument.

 

And now you just did it again saying you can't have a highly paid player at every position lol. 

 

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/straw-man-fallacy/

 

What is a straw man argument?

A straw man argument, sometimes called a straw person argument or spelled strawman argument, is the logical fallacy of distorting an opposing position into an extreme version of itself and then arguing against that extreme version. In creating a straw man argument, the arguer strips the opposing point of view of any nuance and often misrepresents it in a negative light. 

You are an interesting cat

 

you literally said that we have spent years not addressing the position how would you like the Position to be addressed? You’re not going do use high draft picks at safety when you have the kind of safeties that we have you’re going to draft guys with high potential and bring them along that’s all I’m trying to say

[ArtVandalay]

32 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Massive is really overstating it.

 

The 40 times are quite different.

 

But a lot of their other numbers are not that different.

 

Micah Broad jump 10'01"

Jaquan Broad jump 10'01"

 

Micah Vertical Jump 33 3/8

Jaquan Vertical Jump 33 3/4

 

Micah 40 yard dash 10 yard split 1.65 (ET) and 1.59 (HH)

Jaquan 40 yard dash 10 yard split 1.63 (ET) and 1.57 (HH)

 

Micah 40 yard dash 20 yard split 2.70 (ET) and 2.55 (HH)

Jaquan 40 yard dash 20 yard split  2.69 (ET) and 2.59 (HH)

 

Micah 20 yard shuttle 4.20

Jaquan 20 yard shuttle 4.18

 

Micah 225 Bench Press Reps: 12

Jaquan 225 Bench Press Reps: 18

 

Micah 3-cone 6.78 Combine and 6.67 Pro day

Jaquan 3-cone 7.20 Pro day

 

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1003103&DraftYear=2019

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=94008&DraftYear=2013

 

 

 

Again, "massive" is really an overstatement.

It's not an overstatement, you post a bunch of splits, but if your look at the size of the players, their speed, their agility is not close, you have massive gap in 40 time (speed),  3 cone (burst/ agility), reps (strength) and all while Hyde is a larger physical player. 

 

Hyde is a guy that posts figures overall around 50th percentile, he's not some uber athletic specimen... JJ on the other hand is undersized and posts measures in the bottom percentile.  

 

Links to their profile in context of percentiles before. 

 

We are going from a middle of the back athleticism to bottom of the league. That's a massive gap. 

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/micah-hyde/

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/jaquan-johnson/

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by ArtVandalay

[ArtVandalay]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Nonsense that this was "completely ignored." We drafted Jaquan Johnson in the 6th. And Damar Hamlin in the 6th

 

I mean, maybe we could have thrown a bit more into it. I mean, they could have drafted a 5th rounder instead of a 6th. A 5th rounder like Micah Hyde, maybe. Or a 7th rounder like Poyer.

 

You don't like these new guys. Fair enough. But they didn't ignore the position. They just appear to have a very different view than you do about how good the backups are. We'll see who's right as the youngsters start to get some experience.

Those are the only safties we have drafted in like 7 years certainly the only ones since Beane and McD been here. 

 

End of the draft dart throw at guys that lack size and athleticism and have zero role in the defense other than sit on the bench. 

 

Do you honestly have the slightest bit of confidence in these guys taking over as starters? They don't have the NFL caliber build or athleticism to be starters, so what are you developing? 

 

I get we are strong at safety in full health, but with both safties into their 30s you need to have a better plan.  Ideally one JJ/Hamlin on the roster, then at least 1 serviceable backup that can flex between the two positions or get on the field as an extra DB.

 

These guys might get you by against the Jets of the world but you honestly feel good about trotting them out there vs KC, Cinci, LA? No way.

[Niagara Dude]

14 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

Makes no sense,  Bates makes 12 mllion,  good luck making room for that

[Ya Digg?]

9 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

Those are the only safties we have drafted in like 7 years certainly the only ones since Beane and McD been here. 

 

End of the draft dart throw at guys that lack size and athleticism and have zero role in the defense other than sit on the bench. 

 

Do you honestly have the slightest bit of confidence in these guys taking over as starters? They don't have the NFL caliber build or athleticism to be starters, so what are you developing? 

 

I get we are strong at safety in full health, but with both safties into their 30s you need to have a better plan.  Ideally one JJ/Hamlin on the roster, then at least 1 serviceable backup that can flex between the two positions or get on the field as an extra DB.

 

These guys might get you by against the Jets of the world but you honestly feel good about trotting them out there vs KC, Cinci, LA? No way.

So you're upset that they haven't done a better job of addressing "back up safety."  Are you suggesting they use high round draft picks on players who are going to be back ups?  Throw a ton of money in free agency at guys who will likely never see the field?  In other words you want them to use assets on other areas of need (back up safety hasn't been a need) just in case Hyde or Poyer goes down with a season ending injury...you're absolutely right, why didn't they plan for Hyde going down with a neck injury that would take him out for the rest of the season!  You think the Titans will give us Byard for a 6th and he can come play here for cheap too!  That would be amazing don't you think?

[Niagara Dude]

4 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

Makes no sense,  Bates makes 12 mllion,  good luck making room for that

If the Saints fall off then trading for 30 year old Tyrann Mathieu would make sense for both experience and workable salary.  He is signed until 2024 with base salary of only 1.6 mllion and cap hit of 3.2 mllion this season and then 7 mllion the next two seasons.  

 

Just turned 30 and this guy can make plays and would help us in beating KC.   Even if you give up a 3rd or4th rounder it gives the Bills a vet for the next 2-3 years

[ArtVandalay]

 

 

42 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

You are an interesting cat

 

you literally said that we have spent years not addressing the position how would you like the Position to be addressed? You’re not going do use high draft picks at safety when you have the kind of safeties that we have you’re going to draft guys with high potential and bring them along that’s all I’m trying to say

You can address backup safety without an all pro player and without a day 1 or 2 pick you realize that right?

 

Spending and end of draft dart throw on 2 players in the 6th round that do not have the size nor athleticism to be an NFL caliber starting safties, provide no value other than sitting the bench and fit the profile of special teamers is not what i would qualify as trading the backup S seriously. 

 

Ideally you need at least 1 quality backup that could fill in at either spot, then the other backup can be a Special teamer mould. It could be a mid round pick 4th round or so,  or it could be a veteran safety. 

 

We are paying Matakevich and Neal over $3 MM each to be purely special teamers, zero monetary excuse to not have a quality backup at safety.

 

I hope these kids produce and fill in well enough, Iwill be rooting for them because our success depends on them,  I'd rather be proven wrong and have them succeed and win them proven right and not... but i believe there's a high likelihood we look to upgrade via FA or trade. Super Bowl contender standards are different. 

[BillsFanSD]

30 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

These guys might get you by against the Jets of the world but you honestly feel good about trotting them out there vs KC, Cinci, LA? No way.

KC is universally considered a serious SB contender.

 

Take a look at their defense.  Now take a look at ours.  Take a deep breath.  We're okay.

[Green Lightning]

End of day, McD knows D Back play cold and his scheme is solid. We'll see some big plays against us but I expect we'll be fine.

[716er]

I am excited to see Hamlin and Johnson.

 

• They are DBs who have been groomed within the McD system the entirety of each of their careers
• They have practiced together as a tandem since Hamlin has been in the league
• They should have confidence in each other
• Nobody develops DBs like McD

Let's see what happens before we say the sky has fell. I think they're going to surprise.

[MiltonWaddams]

Earl Thomas is available. Might need to deal with a few issues…but who doesn’t?

 

(Sarcasm friends, sarcasm)

[T master]

Will the Bills look for some recent retirees to sign like say Eric Weddle , Anthony Levine ,Kahari Willis, Ricardo Allen  or even some retired corner backs to play the safety position like Buster Skrine or a Jason McCourty to bring in that have a lot of experience & might be coaxed out of retirement for 1 season with a SB contender ?

 

Some of these guys have some very lengthy resumes and have done some good things during their time on the field & may be a option if they are still in decent shape which Weddle had shown last year was it that it can be done . 

 

Just a thought seeing as Beane covers all of his bases in a situation like this .

[Son of a K-Gun]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Massive is really overstating it.

 

The 40 times are quite different.

 

But a lot of their other numbers are not that different.

 

Micah Broad jump 10'01"

Jaquan Broad jump 10'01"

 

Micah Vertical Jump 33 3/8

Jaquan Vertical Jump 33 3/4

 

Micah 40 yard dash 10 yard split 1.65 (ET) and 1.59 (HH)

Jaquan 40 yard dash 10 yard split 1.63 (ET) and 1.57 (HH)

 

Micah 40 yard dash 20 yard split 2.70 (ET) and 2.55 (HH)

Jaquan 40 yard dash 20 yard split  2.69 (ET) and 2.59 (HH)

 

Micah 20 yard shuttle 4.20

Jaquan 20 yard shuttle 4.18

 

Micah 225 Bench Press Reps: 12

Jaquan 225 Bench Press Reps: 18

 

Micah 3-cone 6.78 Combine and 6.67 Pro day

Jaquan 3-cone 7.20 Pro day

 

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=1003103&DraftYear=2019

https://draftscout.com/dsprofile.php?PlayerId=94008&DraftYear=2013

 

 

 

Again, "massive" is really an overstatement.

I always chuckle when we get into a player’s measurables when they were measured almost 10 years ago…