Josh vs. Herbert and Mahomes…

[Buf4alo]

Allen then Mahomes.

Now the real debate: Herbert, Lamar or Burrow.

[mannc]

26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Agreed on this.  There isn't a single thing the other 2 can do that Allen cant also do at a high level.  But there are things Allen can do, and does almost every game that no other QB can do.  

 

Also, I am going to say something right now that may see odd given the end to tonight's game.  But Herbert plays a little bit soft...and he has some Jared Goff in him.  STOP...don't reply yet and freak out...let me explain some things first:

 

FIRST:  Herbert is substantially better overall QB than Goff...I AM NOT comparing their overall talent, its not close.  So don't reply with some outrage as if I just compared their abilities as QB's to be similar, that is NOT what I am talking about.  Herbert is looking like a guy who will be in the top 5 QB list rest of his career.  Goff is a 3rd tier starter.  What I am talking about is...

• Hebert doesn't like to get hit.  You start hitting him, he tends to panic throw, and we saw some of that tonight.  And it's a trait that Goff had a lot of times in LA.  As the game went on, KC was hitting Herbert a lot, and he started making a lot of bad decisions and poor throws as a result, even when the rush wasn't there. 
  • Last week, with the game tied 3-3, in the redzone on the 5 yard line, on 3rd down and 3 he scrambled against LV.  He EASILY could get the first down needing just another yard while still running, but it meant he would get tackled instead of sliding.   Like it was a 100% guaranteed first down, and might even get into the endzone.  But he chose to give himself up and settle for 4th and 1 from the 3 yard line.  NOW...he was BAILED out by a penalty on the play elsewhere on the field, and that gave them a free first and goal after the play and he would go on to throw a short TD.  But he was so adverse to some contact he chose to give up on the first down, and possibly a TD and just immediately went to the ground to avoid the contact.  
    • I immediately went to the shout box and said that is the difference between Allen and Hebert right there.  100% of the time not only does Josh take the contact and get the first down, he probably gets the TD.  
  • Now tonight, its again 3rd down, down 2 scores with a must score situation with the game on the line.  He could get on his hands and knees and crawl 5 yards past the first down marker.  Yes his rib area was clearly affecting him, but he was so adverse to any contact, instead of taking the free first down, and this one he could have slid for it long before anyone got there, heck he could have almost just reached the ball out...he instead gives up the run right there to throw the ball away and force 4th down.
    • And I 100% get he gritted out this game, and that certainly makes him look tough.  And there is a certain toughness to him that kept him out there, no doubt.  Not taking that away from him.  But in important moments now, going back to last year, I see him play soft too many times or make a poor decision because he's been hit.  The correct decision there was the free first down they badly needed as the game is practically over if they don't convert on 4th down.  

Dont get it twisted, in a league wide redraft, Herbert is my 3rd pick in the draft right after Allen number 1, Mahomes number 2.  He is a tremendous talent.  But for me, Allen and Mahomes are still in a class by themselves right now amongst all the young QB's in the league.  They have another gear I haven't seen from Burrow or Hebert consistently enough.  They have this extra layer of toughness, grit, and drive that separates them from the rest IMHO.

 

 

I agree.  I saw every game Herbert played in college and I’ve seen at least 10 of his games in the NFL.  He just never seems to make the big play when it’s most needed, and he often makes the big mistake, like he did tonight.   (I know he made a lot of plays in that Raiders play-in game, but they lost). I’m also puzzled by his refusal to run…he’s as fast as Allen, but not quite as thick…I have to assume he just doesn’t like to get hit…he got hurt several times at U of O on designed running plays. Despite all his talent, I just don’t think Herbert will ever be at Allen’s level.

[Scott7975]

I think Allen and Mahomes are about equal.  Its hard to say there really but I sometimes feel like Allen is a bit better because I feel like Allen has to work harder.  Allen doesn't get wide open Kelce by almost 5 yards everytime.  Allen does get all these YAC that Mahomes gets left and right. Even still it doesnt matter.  These two QBs are the best in the league and will be for a long time and eventually end up in the HoF.

 

Herbert I do not think is on their level yet.  Granted, I have not watched a ton of Herbert so maybe I am wrong.  He has a good arm but he is lacking in areas of his game that the other two are not.  

 

Thats just my take.  Hard for me to compare Herbert when I havent seen a lot of him so like I said earlier, I could be wrong on that.

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, Wyobills89 said:

Sounds like another great charger QB. River's always had the stats but had 0 clutch in him. One of those 05-08 teams was so loaded they should have won the super bowl that year. I just can't remember the year.

I was thinking something along those lines.  Herbert kind of reminds me of a cross between Rivers and Bledsoe.

[GoBills808]

I gotta be honest I think I take Lamar over Herbert

[Utah John]

I think Herbert is the best pure passer of the three.  I'm not talking only about arm strength but also the ease with which he fires those darts.  

 

Herbert however is not the best QB.  All the little things that a QB does to help his team succeed, he doesn't even know what they are let alone how to do them.  As for Allen v Mahomes, I don't know how you pick one over the other.  They're both great passers and great QBs.

[GunnerBill]

Allen and Mahomes remain ahead of Herbert. He has to cut the strange lulls out of his game. It is a bit like he loses focus or concentration and then when the game is on the line late he dials back in again. 

4 hours ago, Utah John said:

I think Herbert is the best pure passer of the three.  I'm not talking only about arm strength but also the ease with which he fires those darts.  

 

Herbert however is not the best QB.  All the little things that a QB does to help his team succeed, he doesn't even know what they are let alone how to do them.  As for Allen v Mahomes, I don't know how you pick one over the other.  They're both great passers and great QBs.

 

Herbert has the most classic, how you do it in the textbook, throwing motion of the three, for sure. I'm not sure I go as far as the best pure passer. 

[machine gun kelly]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Josh has a stronger arm and is a better/more violent scrambler.  He would have (run for and) gotten that first down on that last Chargers drive.

Not that Mahomes doesn’t have a great arm and creative, but Allen and Herbert have the bigger arm.  Allen is better angry runner than Herbert.  These are the three best young QB’s in football.  Tier 2 is Burrow (it’s partially his fault for all of those sacks) and Lamar.  Lamar is freakish athlete, but can’t hold a candle in passing to the above QB’s.  Get used to these five for the next decade.

 

Brady and Rodgers a little later are Sun setting, and if Hackett continues to be that bad of a play caller, RW is going nowhere.

[machine gun kelly]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I gotta be honest I think I take Lamar over Herbert

Not me and not even close.  Herbert is a far better passer.  Lamar had the 32nd rank passing game last year.  808, not a criticism of you, I just think Herbert has staying power for the next 13 years. Lamar’s legs are going to wear down eventually.  If Lamar doesn’t learn to play more like the others, he’s not going to have a 17 year career.  Burrow needs to throw it away.  His line sucked last year, and didn’t look much better in week 1, but he contributes to all of those sacks as well.  That’s going to kill him if he doesn’t learn to throw away or check down.  Just because you can throw it 20 yards accurately, sometimes, it’s better to just dump it to you’re RB.

[LeGOATski]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I gotta be honest I think I take Lamar over Herbert

You'd have to have the right system and personnel around him. Exactly what Baltimore has had. If you're picking the straight-up better QB, I don't see how you can justify taking Lamar over Herbert.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

6 hours ago, Buf4alo said:

Allen then Mahomes.

Now the real debate: Herbert, Lamar or Burrow.

Lamar does NOT belong on a list with REAL passing QB’s

 

Lamar is an idiot to turn down the contract 

 

now he’s on a mission to reach the SB or be on another team in 2023 or 2024. 
 

[LeGOATski]

1 minute ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Lamar does NOT belong on a list with REAL passing QB’s

 

Lamar is an idiot to turn down the contract 

 

now he’s on a mission to reach the SB or be on another team in 2023 or 2024. 
 

I'd love to see him on a different team and see how he does. He's going to get paid a ***** ton of money either way.

[Big Turk]

Mahomes has some of the best interception luck you can get...got bailed out with 19 dropped INTs in 2020, tied with Matt Ryan for NFL lead...last year only had 10...starting out strong again this year...

 

Had 4 INTs either dropped or negated by penalties last night, one a phantom illegal contact call and the other offsetting penalties. Then two drops by "Stonehands" Samuel

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/patrick-mahomes-gets-bailed-four-023442777.html

Edited September 16, 2022 by Big Turk

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I don’t see much of the Chargers more that what i hear and read about.
 

the typical Hype from college that

does not relate to NFL play  

 

Like normal I let rookies prove themselves, give them 3 years to give is something solid to look at before I pass my personal judgement. 
 

Herbert is good. I said I’d like to see something spectacular last night. 
 

Something to show me WOW this kid needs to be feared. 

 

6 Punts 

and INT the Refs overturned that should not have. 
 

The Chargers looked to execute better and the Chefs looked not so super

 

 

6 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

I'd love to see him on a different team and see how he does. He's going to get paid a ***** ton of money either way.

he probably will. 
No doubt 

 

the question is what team?

 

[Big Turk]

Just now, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I don’t see much of the Chargers more that what i hear and read about.
 

the typical Hype from college that

does not relate to NFL play  

 

Like normal I let rookies prove themselves, give them 3 years to give is something solid to look at before I pass my personal judgement. 
 

Herbert is good. I said I’d like to see something spectacular last night. 
 

Something to show me WOW this kid needs to be feared. 

 

6 Punts 

and INT the Refs overturned that should not have. 
 

The Chargers looked to execute better and the Chefs looked not so super

 

 

 

JC Jackson is also way over hyped. Dude gets smoked by good WRs and feasts on average ones. Diggs destroys him and he looked bad last night again.

[LeGOATski]

1 minute ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

he probably will. 
No doubt 

 

the question is what team?

 

San Francisco or Seattle

[H2o]

Mahomes and Allen are basically even to me. They both make all kinds of off script throws, using different arm angles, are accurate to every level of the field, and their arm strength allows them to make throws into windows that other QB's just can't. I do believe that Josh is the better athlete of the two, and therefore more dangerous. But as far as actual QB play, throwing the football, reading defenses, and whatnot, I have them dead even. They are clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the QB's in this league. 

 

Herbert is still growing as a QB. He's got every tool you would want in a Franchise QB. To me though, every time I watch him play, it just seems like he doesn't have that same killer instinct that you see with Mahomes and Allen. If the game is close in the end, and you need a single game winning drive, Mahomes and Allen are by far the best in the NFL. Herbert just doesn't seem to have that same fire and that "it" factor to me. He will have a long, successful career in the NFL. But right now, I don't put him in the same tier as Allen and Mahomes. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by H2o

[gobills404]

6 hours ago, Buf4alo said:

Now the real debate: Herbert, Lamar or Burrow.

Herbert and it’s not close

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I gotta be honest I think I take Lamar over Herbert

Last night,

didn’t you tell me Herbert 

 

 

and you would prefer Lamar?

A runner who throws?

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

I’m not planning to say disparaging things about another QB to prop Josh up. I think Josh Allen is fantastic. I think that Patrick Mahomes is too. Justin Herbert is great but is less accomplished at this point. They are all a little different but QBs that you can consistently win with. Bills fans, Chiefs fans and Chargers fans should be thrilled.