Josh's Competitive Fire

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I think that's silly. He can change things about his game and still be the same dominant player, just with a longer career.

 

The guy redid his entire throwing motion. He's not just some big armed idiot savant out there at QB.

 

Why do people make the assumption him getting hit while running is somehow worse than a QB like Burrow who gets sacked in the pocket frequently?  I believe the injury data shows the majority of QB injuries come from hits in the pocket rather than on scrambles or runs. Allen was the 2nd least sacked QB last year next to Brady for QB's that played in 15+ games.

 

The funny thing is the only time Josh has had a significant injury in his career where he missed games, it came from in the pocket.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Big Turk

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, uninja said:

The Josh Allen Experience:

"Oh ***** what's he doing? *****! Be careful! Holy ***** that was awesome...***** is he ok...? He's ok! That was sick don't do it again!".

Hey! 😡 Stop peeking in my window!

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Malazan said:

Curious, who took more hits last season, Allen or Burrow?

I don't know but apparently since 2018 only Lamar Jackson has taken more as a QB

47 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Why do people make the assumption him getting hit while running is somehow worse than a QB like Burrow who gets sacked in the pocket frequently?  I believe the injury data shows the majority of QB injuries come from hits in the pocket rather than on scrambles or runs. Allen was the 2nd least sacked QB last year next to Brady for QB's that played in 15+ games.

 

The funny thing is the only time Josh has had a significant injury in his career where he missed games, it came from in the pocket.

That's because historically QBs got hit more in the pocket. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that statistic until I see % of QB hits in vs out of pocket and then compare injury rate.

[TBBills]

8 hours ago, The Gravytrain said:

Obviously, Josh's competitive drive is what separates him from most other QBs and players in the league for that matter. That desire to win at no cost is the great intangible that teams can't defend against. As Josh even states, he'll do anything for his team to keep a drive going, score or win. Hurdle players, truck players or even drag a pile. 

 

If, as Josh says, he'll do anything to help the team win. Shouldn't that be running the ball less to help the team down the road? Obviously he does his team no good on the sidelines. There's 16 games left and if he keeps running the way he does, he's putting his team at risk.

 

So the big question, if Josh really wants to stick to his approach and really help the team, shouldn't he be running much less to help his team in the long run. I say this as a lifelong fan going back to the Ferguson days. Like a lot us, I've seen the dark days and am always worried something bad is going to happen. 

 

It's a bit of a conundrum, and ultimately Josh is going to do what he's going to do, but wouldn't really be helping the team by not putting himself at risk? 

 

 

The only conundrum here is you.

[Big Turk]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know but apparently since 2018 only Lamar Jackson has taken more as a QB

That's because historically QBs got hit more in the pocket. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that statistic until I see % of QB hits in vs out of pocket and then compare injury rate.

 

I'd say it is more based on the number of bodies around the QB in the pocket he can get his leg pinned under, him getting blindsided by a defender on a blitz or by cleanly beating a tackle, QB's hitting their hands on helmets while throwing, multiple defenders hitting him at the same time that are usually D linemen, and defenders landing on top of them in a way that pins their arm under them causing shoulder issues.

 

None of those are common issues with a QB running in the open field and he is getting hit more by LB's and DB's than defensive linemen.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Big Turk

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Malazan said:

Curious, who took more hits last season, Allen or Burrow?

 

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know but apparently since 2018 only Lamar Jackson has taken more as a QB

That's because historically QBs got hit more in the pocket. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that statistic until I see % of QB hits in vs out of pocket and then compare injury rate.

 

Allen:

26 sacks

64 hits

 

Burrow:

51 sacks

48 hits

 

** Allen played 17 games; Burrow played 16

 

Go to advanced passing (Pressure tab):

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm#all_passing_detailed

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BurrJo01.htm#all_passing_detailed

 

[billsbackto81]

Was watching espn today and Bart Scott mentioned Cam Newton and his similar play that ultimately shortened his career. But what caught my ear was the humiliation factor Josh is putting on these defensive players. Stiff arming and running over players, juking them out of their shoes. He mentioned players will get tired of it and put extra effort in taking him down. Rules are geared to protect the QB and many don't wish to draw penalties but it may get to a point where someone feels he may need to give Josh a reason to think twice. Personally I love the physicality of his game but I do want him to lead my team for the next 15plus seasons. Hey, there came a day MJ23 couldn't jump over people and had to developed a deadly fade away jumper. At some point JA will have to do something similar.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

 

Allen:

26 sacks

64 hits

 

Burrow:

51 sacks

48 hits

 

** Allen played 17 games; Burrow played 16

 

Go to advanced passing (Pressure tab):

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm#all_passing_detailed

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BurrJo01.htm#all_passing_detailed

 

He also had 122 rush attempts

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

He also had 122 rush attempts

 

Which is 7/game and I'm sure more than half of those were Josh's choice to run; not designed runs.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Which is 7/game and I'm sure more than half of those were Josh's choice to run; not designed runs.

He still gets hit on those

[JESSEFEFFER]

55 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Why do people make the assumption him getting hit while running is somehow worse than a QB like Burrow who gets sacked in the pocket frequently?  I believe the injury data shows the majority of QB injuries come from hits in the pocket rather than on scrambles or runs. Allen was the 2nd least sacked QB last year next to Brady for QB's that played in 15+ games.

 

The funny thing is the only time Josh has had a significant injury in his career where he missed games, it came from in the pocket.

 

 

At Wyoming he shattered his collar bone taking on a defender.  It may have been a fluke but it's on my mind.  At least when running he can see the threats and adjust accordingly.  So many potential  injuries for QBs in an and out of the pocket.  Smash a hand on a helmet = broken thumb, pass rusher tripped and crashes into legs = torn knee ligaments, shot to the chest = cracked sternum, taken to the ground with full body weight of defender = cracked ribs (Tua) or hip injury (Fitz.)  Bad things happen in the pocket more often, I think.

 

Fitz's last play in the NFL

 

Hip displaysia for Fitz

 

 

[Gugny]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

He still gets hit on those

 

The Bills had the #1 scoring offense in the NFL last year.

 

They're coming off a game in which they moved the ball AT WILL and scored 31 points against the defending Super Bowl champions.

 

And you want them to switch things up??

 

You're driving yourself crazy with your "what if Josh gets hurt," paranoia.  He has 3+ years under his belt as the starter and has not missed one game.

 

Ride the wave, baby!!

[Big Turk]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He still gets hit on those

 

Some of them...he goes OOB without being touched, into the endzone without being touched or slides(yeah he has done it) at times also.

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

The Bills had the #1 scoring offense in the NFL last year.

 

They're coming off a game in which they moved the ball AT WILL and scored 31 points against the defending Super Bowl champions.

 

And you want them to switch things up??

 

You're driving yourself crazy with your "what if Josh gets hurt," paranoia.  He has 3+ years under his belt as the starter and has not missed one game.

 

Ride the wave, baby!!

 

Yes he has...he missed a few games when he got hit *IN THE POCKET* by a defender while throwing the ball and hurt his forearm his rookie year.

 

Allen missed 4 games in which Derek Anderson, Nathan Peterman and Matt Barkley started.  Barkley famously started the Jets game a few days after being signed and lit them up. The next week Allen returned against Jacksonville  which is where he threw that 75 yard TD to Foster while getting hit by two defenders and was called "trash" by Jalen Ramsey prior to the game.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Big Turk

[billsfan1959]

12 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Which is 7/game and I'm sure more than half of those were Josh's choice to run; not designed runs.

 

Right. I'd say most of them are his choice. He's ultra competetive and he's also a pretty smart guy. Sometimes he lets his competetiveness get the best of him, but the vast majority of time he's pretty smart about limiting big hits when he runs.

 

He's done pretty well so far without my input, so I think I'll refrain from telling him how he should play football...

[LabattBlue]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

The funny thing is the only time Josh has had a significant injury in his career where he missed games, it came from in the pocket.

Funny thing is, a QB is in the pocket 30-40 times a game, and running the ball <10 times a game.  Therefore, doesn’t it make sense that a QB is getting injured in the pocket more often than when running the ball? 🤔

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

Funny thing is, a QB is in the pocket 30-40 times a game, and running the ball <10 times a game.  Therefore, doesn’t it make sense that a QB is getting injured in the pocket more often than when running the ball? 🤔

 

Not according to some posters apparently.

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not according to some posters apparently.

 

I'm sure Matthew Stafford thought he was in the safest place possible last week when was getting hit 22 times in the pocket...

[mjt328]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I just put it in the shoutbox but will repeat here.... Josh was credited with 10 runs on Thursday. Was actually 9 and a kneel down. 

 

The remaining 9 broke down as:

 

5 scrambles

3 read option plays that Josh kept

1 called QB run

 

The called QB run came with the Bills up 14, so that clearly has to go. Unnecessary. The 3 read option plays were on the first two drives of the second half (both touchdown drives). One of which was in the redzone (and the Rams played it well) another of which was the one where he had one leg up in the air as he was being hit - ugly looking play.

 

I think the coaching staff can help by dialling down the read option plays outside of the redzone (save for the really big games). Josh can help by not scrambling and diving into two tacklers as he did on that final run in the 4th quarter when the team is already up 21. That was a designed pass play - a waggle - the Rams defended it well, took the receiver away and Josh has to know the scoreboard there and just throw that into the stand and be happy to punt the ball. That is where his competitiveness gets him in trouble. 

 

Thanks for this information.

It's very important to note the difference between QB scrambles and the various kinds of designed QB runs.

 

Telling Josh Allen that he shouldn't scramble with the ball would be a mistake.  It's one of the aspects of his game that makes him special, and almost impossible to defend.  Take that away, and yes he's still a good passer.  But I don't think he's elite as a pocket-only guy.  You can see the same evolution with Russell Wilson over the last 2-3 seasons.  Once he decided to stop running as often, the level of his game went down a notch.  He's still very accurate and smart.  But defenses don't fear him like they used to.  

 

I think our offense would also miss the read-option plays if we cut them out completely.  They have been a key piece to this offense (with both Daboll and Dorsey).  If Allen starts handing the ball off 90% of the time, the defense will quickly figure that out.  And then those plays become ineffective.  I think the answer here would be to "limit" the read-option looks, and only use them in the more important games/situations.

 

The pre-designed runs are the easiest to scrap, and don't seem to gain much anyway.  Those are the plays that eventually ran Cam Newton into the ground.  Hopefully our staff learned some from his quick decline, and takes notes for Allen's career.

 

 

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't know but apparently since 2018 only Lamar Jackson has taken more as a QB

That's because historically QBs got hit more in the pocket. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that statistic until I see % of QB hits in vs out of pocket and then compare injury rate.

 

The numbers are based on the % of inquiry numbers being thrown around are per 'type' of play (ie being "in the pocket" has had more injuries per play than designed QB runs). "Running" QBs (and all QBs) are injured at a higher % on non-running plays. For example, Cam Newton's first big injury was trying to make a tackle on an interception. RGIII got injured trying to recover a fumble. 

 

There's a narrative that 'running' QBs take hits that take a toll over their careers, but there's very little data on that because Pocket Passers have generally been the prevalence and there have been very few "elite" running QBs over the history of the game to really have a comparison compared to pocket passers who are promising then flame out.

 

I think this is a confused take because RGIII just wasn't a good QB. He made up for that by running, but by getting injured (in the pocket recovering a fumble) he remove his ability to make plays running and then couldn't pass well enough. It's hard to argue that he had been in the league (and college) long enough for the 'hits to accumulate' making his body weaker. He just wasn't a complete player. 

 

I'd also suppose that age is much more dangerous to running QBs than the 'hits' they take running the ball. 

 

That said, I'm 100% on board with limiting the designed runs. I think they're stupid, but because of the 'injury risk', but because I believe Allen is more dangerous with his arm and 'option' to scramble if it breaks down on most plays. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Bills are winless in the playoffs on the road under McDermitt. Bills need to do all they can to secure the number one seed. If that’s the goal it’s hard to save Josh for the playoffs.

 

As good as McDermott is he’s had some defensive lapses on the road in the playoffs.