Ken Dorsey presser 9/12

[Buffalo716]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There were reports in the offseason that a bunch of teams were interested in Dorsey and the Pegulas had to pay him a lot of money to keep him here. I think he has very quickly become a hot name in NFL front offices.

Everybody who works with Josh is gonna be a hot name

[Buddo]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Everybody who works with Josh is gonna be a hot name

For sure. 
 

Perhaps the difference with Dorsey, is that people who have worked with him throughout his career, e.g. Greg Olsen, have talked him up.

 

Sometimes people are just simply good at what they do, and all the favourable circumstances, merely highlight that.

 

Its obviously too soon to be sure with Dorsey, but I am quietly optimistic. 😉

[Matt_In_NH]

16 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

What do they need to get through? Josh is going to be Josh. Just because player A got hurt playing a certain style doesn't mean player B will playing the same style.

 

Also what should be mentioned is Cam used to get absolutely hammered while in the pocket even after the plays to the point it was joked that Newton never got roughing the passer calls even when he got lit up late. Allen for the most part does not and doesn't take sacks either.

 

Newton's career sack percentage is around 7%... Allen's is 5.58% and should continue dropping as he has gone from 8 and 7.9% his first 2 years to 4.3 and 3.9% his last two years. He is among the least stacked QBs in the NFL over the past few seasons and 7th least in terms of active QBs career wise. Those hits are much more likely to injure him than him running. 

 

IMHO, Allen could do a better job not taking hits at times but you also don't want to make him start thinking out there and trying to coach what makes Josh Josh out of him...

 

First, we are not going to agree on this, that is clear and it is what it is, we can disagree.   What they need to work through is Josh not taking unnecessary risks to his body based on situational football.  Coaching him to understand and being able to "react" correctly based on the situation is not coaching Josh out of Josh.  Knowing what to do in situational football should not be something he needs to stop and think about, it should be instinctual, not taking sacks when in FG range or when you have no timeouts at the end of a game for instance....same with not fighting for a yard on first or second down in the 4th when you have dominated the whole game.   Beane, McDermott and Dorsey all seem to have that same belief if you listen to presser's.  Beane talked about it at the end of the season presser as did McDermott and Dorsey after the Rams game and other times.  Hits to the QB are going to happen, Josh running is going to happen, that is understood but sometimes fighting for a yard or 2 are not worth it.   

 

I don't see a huge difference between 7% and 5.58% you are quoting, sure 5.58% than 7% is lower but how many sacks are we talking over a season at those rates, maybe one per game or something.  Meanwhile in the fourth quarter he ran a number of times and fought for yards.   There are probably better stats to compare than sack% for this but I would rather not compare Josh to Cam Newton much anyway.   

 

Look at the first 12 or so games last year, Josh ran out of bounds, slid a fair amount and overall the offense while effective compared to the rest of the league was having some consistency issues.   They were losing some games, after the Patriots loss at home things changed.  I have heard it called the "cheat code" was entered, Josh was now a runner, his rushing attempts and yards went up for the last 5 games and gone was sliding (for the most part).  This puts a lot of pressure on the defense and allowed for a fun playoff push.  For me, the challenge for Josh and Dorsey long term is Allen being a top 5 QB while minimizing some of the physicality to keep him upright.  I hope like heck we can go on for the next decade plus arguing this and having nothing happens to him, but the odds are probably not good for that.  I want Josh Allen to be the QB of the Bills for the next 15 years and limiting wear and tear will be important for that to occur.  I am good with using the cheat code in big games when it is needed.

 

I have heard it said the risk is higher in the pocket than running.   Not sure where that data is, I trust it is true but I also know we have had some close calls with Josh against the Chargers two years ago and the Bucs last year, both were when he was running.  The Chargers play was particularly notable because he was fighting for maybe a yard, not worth it.   The one play we saw a lot under Dabol and now last week is the read option...Josh keeps it most of the time and it rarely produces big yards, I see no need for it.  

 

For me, the challenge to Dorsey and Josh is to find a way to be that top 5 offense without using the "cheat code".   Find a way to get the rushing yards out of Singletary vs Allen as much.  As good as Dabol was I am optimistic Dorsey will result in a better offense and I beieve the strategy of the staff is to limit some of the hits to the QB.  The game vs the Rams was interesting because Josh had the lowest average time he held onto the ball before throwing and broke the Bills record for completion percentage, another evolution to his game, another tool in their tool box.   It is great they have the cool cheat code, but it comes with risk, sometimes unnecessary risk and most of the time it is not needed.  Look at the game vs the Rams, Singletary was killing it....but in the second half they turned mostly to Moss and Allen.  I don't think Josh should be the leading the team is carries when they are up by 21.   What I got from the presser's is that this is more on Josh than the coaching staff, so back to the point, he needs to understand when up by 21 and you are moving the ball at will, fighting for an extra 2 yards on first down is not worth it. 

[billsfan1959]

40 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I don't think Josh should be the leading the team is carries when they are up by 21.   What I got from the presser's is that this is more on Josh than the coaching staff, so back to the point, he needs to understand when up by 21 and you are moving the ball at will, fighting for an extra 2 yards on first down is not worth it. 

 

This seems to be a common belief; however, none of this actually happened in the Rams game.

[Matt_In_NH]

22 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

This seems to be a common belief; however, none of this actually happened in the Rams game.

My words were not clear.  Josh led the team in Carrie’s and he should not IMO.  I would have to go back and look but maybe he fought for yards when up by 14?  Is that your point?   Josh did rush one time for. 5 yards up by 21 on second down.  

Edited September 13, 2022 by Matt_In_NH

[eball]

14 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

My words were not clear.  Josh led the team in Carrie’s and he should not IMO.  I would have to go back and look but maybe he fought for yards when up by 14?  Is that your point?   Josh did rush one time for. 5 yards up by 21 on second down.  

 

But how’d he do in Tiffanies?

[eball]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

There is no precedent

 

…for Josh Allen.  Yes, even he has admitted his body is “beat up” at the end of the season but I do have confidence he will continue to evolve his game as necessary.  What makes him so special, though, is the overall combination of his talents.  Just last Thursday night his running created two highlight plays — the 3rd down stiff arm and the TD through Bobby Wagner.  Neither were designed runs — just Josh making plays as only he can.

 

Nutrition and knowledge about maintaining one’s body are so much more advanced now.  I’m just not willing to worry about Josh’s career being shortened at this point.

 

[Greg S]

45 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

My words were not clear.  Josh led the team in Carrie’s and he should not IMO.  I would have to go back and look but maybe he fought for yards when up by 14?  Is that your point?   Josh did rush one time for. 5 yards up by 21 on second down.  

 

Agree. Josh should run as little as possible. To have him run at all up 31-10 in the 4th is just plain stupid. 

[BobbyC81]

18 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

What do they need to get through? Josh is going to be Josh. Just because player A got hurt playing a certain style doesn't mean player B will playing the same style.

 

Also what should be mentioned is Cam used to get absolutely hammered while in the pocket even after the plays to the point it was joked that Newton never got roughing the passer calls even when he got lit up late. Allen for the most part does not and doesn't take sacks either.

 

Newton's career sack percentage is around 7%... Allen's is 5.58% and should continue dropping as he has gone from 8 and 7.9% his first 2 years to 4.3 and 3.9% his last two years. He is among the least stacked QBs in the NFL over the past few seasons and 7th least in terms of active QBs career wise. Those hits are much more likely to injure him than him running. 

 

IMHO, Allen could do a better job not taking hits at times but you also don't want to make him start thinking out there and trying to coach what makes Josh Josh out of him...

That play where a defender had his leg and he was still standing could’ve gone horribly bad when other defenders joined in. Could’ve been snapped like a wishbone 

[AmishRifle]

Dabs brought the read option to NY with him.  Watching Daniel Jones run that play is cringy.  
 

As for the debate, I’m not a fan of Josh running all the time.  But, you have to balance that with the player and the way they like to play the game.  If being able to run makes Josh play free than I guess we’ll all just have to accept it.  

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

…for Josh Allen.  Yes, even he has admitted his body is “beat up” at the end of the season but I do have confidence he will continue to evolve his game as necessary.  What makes him so special, though, is the overall combination of his talents.  Just last Thursday night his running created two highlight plays — the 3rd down stiff arm and the TD through Bobby Wagner.  Neither were designed runs — just Josh making plays as only he can.

 

Nutrition and knowledge about maintaining one’s body are so much more advanced now.  I’m just not willing to worry about Josh’s career being shortened at this point.

 

 

 

You are certainly correct that there is rarely ever any point in "worrying".............some are definitely worried........I am not...........if Josh Allen quit playing football today I'd still be on to the Titans game tomorrow.

 

Being able to identify patterns/trends with the organization is part of being informed as a fan..........and Allen taking a ton of hits relative to guys like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Herbert is a trend that has only increased in the past 8 or so Bills games..........not decreased as one would expect..........and yeah, precedent says that QB's who take this much punishment flame out fast.

 

It would be a shame to see a QB with one of the greatest arms ever.......and who has developed to be able to make those dime throws he was making in the first half against the Rams..........lose his edge very prematurely from the physical/neurological damage that accumulates from taking so many violent hits.   

[ddaryl]

19 hours ago, zow2 said:

 

I could be wrong, but i think he will be a hot HC candidate by the end of THIS season.  Lesser names than Dorsey, with lesser resumes have gotten HC jobs.  

We just promoted him and we need stability... I don't think the Bills should let him interview for at least a couple of years. You we're promoted to be OC of the BIlls we need you for a few years before we let you pursue a HC job

Edited September 13, 2022 by ddaryl

[DrDawkinstein]

29 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

We just promoted him and we need stability... I don't think the Bills should let him interview for at least a couple of years. You we're promoted to be OC of the BIlls we need you for a few years before we let you pursue a HC job

 

If it's for a HC job we have no ability to stop it. Only lateral moves.

 

The only way to stop it is for Pegula to open the check book, which I'm not opposed to since it aint my money and it doesnt count towards the cap.

 

I'm hoping that Dorsey sees the value in hanging in this position for at least another season past this one. Get his feet under him as an OC and even asst HC, before moving on. Get us our back-to-back rings and then go cash in.

 

But there is nothing we can do to stop him from leaving other than hope.

[ddaryl]

21 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

If it's for a HC job we have no ability to stop it. Only lateral moves.

 

The only way to stop it is for Pegula to open the check book, which I'm not opposed to since it aint my money and it doesnt count towards the cap.

 

I'm hoping that Dorsey sees the value in hanging in this position for at least another season past this one. Get his feet under him as an OC and even asst HC, before moving on. Get us our back-to-back rings and then go cash in.

 

But there is nothing we can do to stop him from leaving other than hope.

 

 

I didnt realize it was latteral moves only.

 

[DrDawkinstein]

10 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

I didnt realize it was latteral moves only.

 

 

Plus, it's a REALLY bad look for a team/fo to stop a career from progressing. When you do that, it makes it tougher to attract top coaches down the line.

 

I think we're setup pretty well for Dorsey's inevitable departure. Joe Brady kinda popped and fizzled already, but I think there was a lot of learning in his success at LSU and not-so-success in Carolina. Continuing to develop him here as QB coach and then promote him once Dorsey leaves. Either way we have a good plan for the next 3-4 years.

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, BearNorth said:

People forget Dorsey was the QB on what is widely considered to be the greatest college football team of all time.  He's been to the top of the mountain.

 

 

Josh: "What was your record?  36-4, is that it?"

Dorsey: "38-2"

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are certainly correct that there is rarely ever any point in "worrying".............some are definitely worried........I am not...........if Josh Allen quit playing football today I'd still be on to the Titans game tomorrow.

 

Being able to identify patterns/trends with the organization is part of being informed as a fan..........and Allen taking a ton of hits relative to guys like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Herbert is a trend that has only increased in the past 8 or so Bills games..........not decreased as one would expect..........and yeah, precedent says that QB's who take this much punishment flame out fast.

 

It would be a shame to see a QB with one of the greatest arms ever.......and who has developed to be able to make those dime throws he was making in the first half against the Rams..........lose his edge very prematurely from the physical/neurological damage that accumulates from taking so many violent hits.   

He really needs to save that kind of abandon for playoffs and truly must win games. I'm sure the coaching staff knows this. Josh knows it, but his competitive spirit gets the best of him. But it's just not wise and unnecessary. We are good enough to win most games without the risky stuff. (But absolutely "no", I can't agree with you about "if Josh Allen quit playing football today." It may be casual entertainment to you, but I can't be a fan with that measure of indifference.)

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Being able to identify patterns/trends with the organization is part of being informed as a fan..........and Allen taking a ton of hits relative to guys like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Herbert is a trend that has only increased in the past 8 or so Bills games..........not decreased as one would expect..........and yeah, precedent says that QB's who take this much punishment flame out fast.

 

It would be a shame to see a QB with one of the greatest arms ever.......and who has developed to be able to make those dime throws he was making in the first half against the Rams..........lose his edge very prematurely from the physical/neurological damage that accumulates from taking so many violent hits.   

 

Agree.  And I think Beane (and McDermott) are very concerned about all the hits Josh was taking.

 

Dorsey was Cam Newton's QB coach for 5 years, during which Newton went to 2 probowls and was an all-pro.  It's hard to judge "hits" from stats alone (a rush attempt as we know can end in a slide or OOB and no difference between that and being scissored by 4 defenders is recorded).  For most of those 5 years, though, we can infer that Cam was being coached to limit contact.  His rushing A/G dropped slightly and his Y/A dropped slightly.  But, in 2017 with the team struggling, both spiked up again.  That says to me that Dorsey may be habituated to the abuse a running QB suffers, and like Daboll he will be willing to run Josh to win.

 

The most concerning thing to me in that interview was that I felt Dorsey was rationalizing.  He said something about how he didn't see Josh take any "big hits" in the game.  I cussed at that.  Either a QB is going to go down and slide/run OOB or, he is going to embrace contact and run into it.  And once the QB embraces contact, whether or not he takes a "big hit" is outside the QB's and the coach's control.  The only smart preventive strategy is to limit contact.

 

Hopefully Beane and McDermott have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Dorsey and with Josh.  I actually think that probably did happen, but the rationalizing I heard still concerns me.

[muppy]

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Everybody who works with Josh is gonna be a hot name

by virtue of they being ON this Bills  roster absoutely. No slouches on this team. ZERO

[Sherlock Holmes]

Loving Dorsey for Josh more than Daboll.