Cornerback conversation

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Utah John said:

Kupp is the best receiver in the game, but he kept getting open.  Better CB play would have limited him at least a little.  Neither Elam nor Benford has really proved they deserve the job. 

 

Against the Rams, our D line overwhelmed their patchwork O line and that helped the CBs.  An opponent with a strong O line will give their QB time to pass, and that could be a problem for whichever rookie is playing.  

 

As things stand both rookies look like pretty good players, not studs.  There's no other position on the Bills where being pretty good is good enough to stick around, let alone start.

 

Err... barely. Cooper Kupp doesn't play against outside corners. The Rams are experts at matching him against nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties. And so it was on Thursday. My breakdown of coverage responsibility on him for his 13 catches was:

 

Taron Johnson - 3

Matt Milano - 3

Jordan Poyer - 2 (including the touchdown)

Christian Benford - 2

Tremaine Edmunds - 1

Kaiir Elam - 1
Micah Hyde - 1

 

So of his 13 catches only 3 came against outside corners. Of those the play against Benford was the one bubble screen the Bills forced back inside and Von tackled him for a 2 yard loss. There was one play against Elam on the final Rams drive when the game was over, a simple hook route for 8 yards with the Bills playing soft zone. Then on the same drive there was the catch and run for 28 where Benford missed the tackle. 

 

The idea that Tre White (or any high-end vet corner) would have had any impact on Cooper Kupp fails to understand the way the Rams use Cooper Kupp. The two rookie corners gave up literally one play against him with a missed tackle when the game was already dead. 

 

EDITED thanks to @Coach Tuesday. It was indeed Benford and not Elam that missed the tackle late on.

Edited September 11, 2022 by GunnerBill

[DCbillsfan]

4 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

My question is who gets cut when Tre comes off PuP?  Or do we not need to cut someone?

If someone gets hurt between now and then, that player could go on IR.  No cut would be needed.

[DCbillsfan]

4 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Dane is clearly CB2 on this team when Tre White is healthy. Neither Benford nor Elam are challenging him for snaps at this time. 

 

However, Tre White is NOT yet game healthy, so the platooning of Elam and Benford is impactful on a game-to-game basis. They have different physical traits and different skillsets and fluencies. Ideally, by season's end, both rookie corners have gained enough seasoning to be relied upon no matter the play call or matchup. We know our coaches are ELITE developers of secondary talent. It will be fascinating to see how the CB snap counts unfold in 2022/23. 

The Bills secondary situation is fascinating.  I agree that when healthy it's Tre CB1 and Jackson CB2.  I wonder if Benford replaces Poyer next year.  This move would get Benford on the field and help out the cap situation.  Don't get me wrong, I like Poyer but as Beane has said - you can't re-sign everyone.

[CSBill]

1 hour ago, DCbillsfan said:

The Bills secondary situation is fascinating.  I agree that when healthy it's Tre CB1 and Jackson CB2.  I wonder if Benford replaces Poyer next year.  This move would get Benford on the field and help out the cap situation.  Don't get me wrong, I like Poyer but as Beane has said - you can't re-sign everyone.

 

I think that is a real possibility. If he is as good of a tackler as advertised--we know he can cover--then I see him as potentially a safety in the type of Defensive system the Bills play.

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Err... barely. Cooper Kupp doesn't play against outside corners. The Rams are experts at matching him against nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties. And so it was on Thursday. My breakdown of coverage responsibility on him for his 13 catches was:

 

Taron Johnson - 3

Matt Milano - 3

Jordan Poyer - 2 (including the touchdown)

Kaiir Elam - 2

Tremaine Edmunds - 1

Christian Benford - 1
Micah Hyde - 1

 

So of his 13 catches only 3 came against outside corners. Of those the play against Benford was the one bubble screen the Bills forced back inside and Von tackled him for a 2 yard loss. The two plays against Elam both came on the final Rams drive when the game was over, the first a simple hook route for 8 yards with the Bills playing soft zone and the second was the catch and run for 28 where Elam missed the tackle. 

 

The idea that Tre White (or any high-end vet corner) would have had any impact on Cooper Kupp fails to understand the way the Rams use Cooper Kupp. The two rookie corners gave up literally one play against him with a missed tackle when the game was already dead. 

Pretty sure it was Benford who missed that tackle on Kupp’s long gain.

 

 

There have been plenty of clunker games under McD but I’m struggling to remember a single game with him as the coach where our secondary got roasted - it never happens.  

Edited September 11, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Pretty sure it was Benford who missed that tackle on Kupp’s long gain.

 

 

There have been plenty of clunker games under McD but I’m struggling to remember a single game with him as the coach where our secondary got roasted - it never happens.  

 

I thought Elam, then Bendford, then Elam. I think it was 24...  hard to see through the traffic. Haven't all22'd it yet though that is just tv angle.

 

EDIT: just all 22d. It was indeed Benford. So switch those numbers around. Benford targeted twice, Elam once. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by GunnerBill

[DCbillsfan]

49 minutes ago, CSBill said:

 

I think that is a real possibility. If he is as good of a tackler as advertised--we know he can cover--then I see him as potentially a safety in the type of Defensive system the Bills play.

When the Bills drafted Benford, Beane mentioned his ballhawking skills which made me believe they were looking at him as a safety.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Pretty sure it was Benford who missed that tackle on Kupp’s long gain.

 

 

There have been plenty of clunker games under McD but I’m struggling to remember a single game with him as the coach where our secondary got roasted - it never happens.  

Both KC playoff games come to mind. Tampa.   Basically Brady and Mahommes. 

[Big Turk]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

When Tre returns, it’s going to be a battle for snaps.  Seems like Dane has the lead atm, but Benford and Elam are going to make this a dogfight.  

Reading this scouting report on Benford has me thinking he could be the best fit for playing zone.  When we play man, Elam a better choice.  Doing that telegraphs our defense, so we’d have to still mix it up.  
But can he beat out Dane who has an important year of experience and is playoff tested?  I’m think I’m pulling for Benford because he’s a jackhammer with a knack for getting his hands on the ball.  With Hyde and Poyer over top, they can mask some of his speed deficiency.   

https://www.si.com/nfl/draft/.amp/scouting-reports/christianbenford

 

It would probably be best if Elam took control considering he’s the only one with wheels… but I think the experience of Dane in the system gives him the advantage.  It looks as if our corners unit is one of the strongest in the league

 

Having this beast DL pass rush best benefits the slower zone ballhawk imo

 

Elam was going to need time to learn and gain experience playing off ball coverage. Not worried about him at all.

 

Jackson likely will be CB2, he has played well for the most part every time he has been pressed into playing time. 

 

Depth is a great problem to have

[Billy Claude]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Err... barely. Cooper Kupp doesn't play against outside corners. The Rams are experts at matching him against nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties. And so it was on Thursday. My breakdown of coverage responsibility on him for his 13 catches was:

 

Taron Johnson - 3

Matt Milano - 3

Jordan Poyer - 2 (including the touchdown)

Christian Benford - 2

Tremaine Edmunds - 1

Kaiir Elam - 1
Micah Hyde - 1

 

So of his 13 catches only 3 came against outside corners. Of those the play against Benford was the one bubble screen the Bills forced back inside and Von tackled him for a 2 yard loss. There was one play against Elam on the final Rams drive when the game was over, a simple hook route for 8 yards with the Bills playing soft zone. Then on the same drive there was the catch and run for 28 where Benford missed the tackle. 

 

The idea that Tre White (or any high-end vet corner) would have had any impact on Cooper Kupp fails to understand the way the Rams use Cooper Kupp. The two rookie corners gave up literally one play against him with a missed tackle when the game was already dead. 

 

EDITED thanks to @Coach Tuesday. It was indeed Benford and not Elam that missed the tackle late on.

 

 

Holy cow.  I think this must have been asked before, but do you actually sleep?   

 

You do all this detailed analysis (which I greatly appreciate and learn a lot from) and I am assuming that you do the same level of analysis for Arsenal and the Premier League.  You also seem to have a pretty high position in the UK government bureaucracy .  When do you have time to do all this?

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Billy Claude

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

When Tre returns, it’s going to be a battle for snaps.  Seems like Dane has the lead atm, but Benford and Elam are going to make this a dogfight.  

Reading this scouting report on Benford has me thinking he could be the best fit for playing zone.  When we play man, Elam a better choice.  Doing that telegraphs our defense, so we’d have to still mix it up.  
But can he beat out Dane who has an important year of experience and is playoff tested?  I’m think I’m pulling for Benford because he’s a jackhammer with a knack for getting his hands on the ball.  With Hyde and Poyer over top, they can mask some of his speed deficiency.   

https://www.si.com/nfl/draft/.amp/scouting-reports/christianbenford

 

It would probably be best if Elam took control considering he’s the only one with wheels… but I think the experience of Dane in the system gives him the advantage.  It looks as if our corners unit is one of the strongest in the league

 

Having this beast DL pass rush best benefits the slower zone ballhawk imo

 

There are several things I think are going to happen this year because of Tre’s injury.

 

1st - even when he returns - I do not think the Bills roll him out for whole games this year.  I think they let him ease back so he is healthy and refreshed going into the playoffs.  Therefore I think a potential 4 man rotation allows them to protect each player and keep them all healthy.

 

2nd - speaking of healthy - at some point players get nicked - the rotation allows each of them to limit their play/snaps and recover better than in the past.  The Bills can feel more confident allowing Dane to sit if he rolls an ankle because Benford or Elam can fill in.

 

3rd - Gameplan- I think there are going to be some switch offs based upon opponents and style/players.  I also do not think the Bills will create tendencies with Elam/Benford - man/zone, but I could see when Tre comes back some mixed Man/zone combo coverages with Elam actually being a man coverage and Tre taking zone to help recover the Knee.

 

4th - Competition- this is what McD loves - he wants these guys competing every snap (but he also wants them working together to help each other improve) - so I think you are going to see all of them rotating - which I think creates some confusion in the WRs mind - because film study might show you how to beat Benford, but now you have Dane covering or Elam or eventually White and if there is even slight confusion between the route run by the WR and the QB - that can lead to big plays by the DB.

 

I think this becomes a season long rotation with the Bills charting what works best versus what players and then come playoffs - they will settle on a gameplan to attack teams.  If the DL plays the way they did in LA - it simply will not matter about the DBs.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[Doc]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Err... barely. Cooper Kupp doesn't play against outside corners. The Rams are experts at matching him against nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties. And so it was on Thursday. My breakdown of coverage responsibility on him for his 13 catches was:

 

Taron Johnson - 3

Matt Milano - 3

Jordan Poyer - 2 (including the touchdown)

Christian Benford - 2

Tremaine Edmunds - 1

Kaiir Elam - 1
Micah Hyde - 1

 

So of his 13 catches only 3 came against outside corners. Of those the play against Benford was the one bubble screen the Bills forced back inside and Von tackled him for a 2 yard loss. There was one play against Elam on the final Rams drive when the game was over, a simple hook route for 8 yards with the Bills playing soft zone. Then on the same drive there was the catch and run for 28 where Benford missed the tackle. 

 

The idea that Tre White (or any high-end vet corner) would have had any impact on Cooper Kupp fails to understand the way the Rams use Cooper Kupp. The two rookie corners gave up literally one play against him with a missed tackle when the game was already dead. 

 

EDITED thanks to @Coach Tuesday. It was indeed Benford and not Elam that missed the tackle late on.

 

I can't fault Benford for that late (meaningless) 28 yard catch.  Kupp caught it and immediately Benford was blocked by another Rams WR and that was enough to allow Kupp to wriggle-out of his tackle.

 

BTW, did you do Diggs' matchups?  Is it safe to say that he went against Ramsey the vast majority of the time?

[GunnerBill]

40 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

 

Holy cow.  I think this must have been asked before, but do you actually sleep?   

 

You do all this detailed analysis (which I greatly appreciate and learn a lot from) and I am assuming that you do the same level of analysis for Arsenal and the Premier League.  You also seem to have a pretty high position in the UK government bureaucracy .  When do you have time to do all this?

 

 

Haha. I actually do less analysis on Arsenal these days. I still watch the games and I listen to a couple of podcasts per week but beyond that not so much.

 

The key is no marriage and no kids. My life is basically my own, I have a very understanding partner haha. Work, socialise, sports and occasionally a bit of sleep. I don't really watch a lot of entertainment tv.... if it isn't politics or sport then I am struggling. My showbiz knowledge is poor. 

 

I did have to watch all 3 Bills pre-season games on catch up this year because of various social commitments. That was a bit of a blow. Think I had missed 1 in 11 seasons before that. 

[strive_for_five_guy]

8 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

It would probably be best if Elam took control considering he’s the only one with wheels… but I think the experience of Dane in the system gives him the advantage.  It looks as if our corners unit is one of the strongest in the league

 

Love what we saw from the team the other night, and the fact that Benford has earned playing time already.  There is lots of upside with our corners unit.

 

With that said, I think it’s a little early to say we have one of the strongest corner units in the league.  The D-line was playing lights out the other night, we have two all-Pro safeties too, and the Rams might still be working through some things offensively.  Plus, I’m optimistic Tre will come back from the injury successfully, but it’s possible he isn’t 100% the same as pre-injury.  For me, this unit has a lot still to prove, before anointing them one of the strongest in the league.

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I can't fault Benford for that late (meaningless) 28 yard catch.  Kupp caught it and immediately Benford was blocked by another Rams WR and that was enough to allow Kupp to wriggle-out of his tackle.

 

BTW, did you do Diggs' matchups?  Is it safe to say that he went against Ramsey the vast majority of the time?

 

Haven't done Diggs' matchups yet. I am not really faulting Benford either. I was just making the point that even if you had Tre White and prime Richard Sherman out there it barely matters to Kupp's numbers. He doesn't really play against outside corners. 

[blacklabel]

I'm not really concerned with the defensive backs. McDermott knows how to coach that position and the system plays to their strengths. 

[Billy Claude]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Haha. I actually do less analysis on Arsenal these days. I still watch the games and I listen to a couple of podcasts per week but beyond that not so much.

 

The key is no marriage and no kids. My life is basically my own, I have a very understanding partner haha. Work, socialise, sports and occasionally a bit of sleep. I don't really watch a lot of entertainment tv.... if it isn't politics or sport then I am struggling. My showbiz knowledge is poor. 

 

I did have to watch all 3 Bills pre-season games on catch up this year because of various social commitments. That was a bit of a blow. Think I had missed 1 in 11 seasons before that. 

 

Well I appreciate your contributions, no matter how you do it.

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

They need to start mixing in Benford at safety, as he could be the future there. The dude is built to play safety. Has the size and tackling skills for it, as well as the zone and ball skills. 

[without a drought]

8 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

My question is who gets cut when Tre comes off PuP?  Or do we not need to cut someone?

Looks like the punter if they can find someone else to hold.

[SCBills]

Rams game is a perfect illustration of why DL >>> DB’s

 

Its great to have both, but if the Offense is one dimensional and has zero time to stand in the pocket, the secondary will usually look elite.  
 

This is why Beane obsessively invests in the DL, and it looks like he’s now gotten it right.  This might be the best DL in the league.  
 

Elam has the highest ceiling, but Benford and Jackson are better fits (currently) for our zone heavy defense.  
 

As mentioned above, I’ll be interested in seeing the DB snap breakdowns against the Dolphins with all that speed at WR.  Game seem tailor-made for Elam to show why we drafted him.