Shakir Should Not Be Inactive

[EmotionallyUnstable]

15 minutes ago, klos63 said:

similar logic, we dress 2 RB's and one gets hurt. Then what?

Then you still have one healthy back. You give the ball to your 2nd best RB.
 

If Diggs/Davis get hurt, it may result in our #6 WR, primary a guy kept around for special teams, getting multiple snaps on the perimeter.
 

I guess the parallel I’d make would be if at RB, Singletary went down, and it forgave Taiwan jones into a significant role in offense. It isn’t ideal. 
 

Edit: on second thought, I think about it like this:

 

If Singletary went down on the first play of the game, they could get by in our pass heavy offense with one RB and Taiwan in spells.
 

If Davis or Diggs went down on the first play of the game, I wouldn’t feel nearly as confident relying on Kumerow to play a major role. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by EmotionallyUnstable

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Then you still have one healthy back. You give the ball to your 2nd best RB.
 

If Diggs/Davis get hurt, it may result in our #6 WR, primary a guy kept around for special teams, getting multiple snaps on the perimeter.
 

I guess the parallel I’d make would be if at RB, Singletary went down, and it forgave Taiwan jones into a significant role in offense. It isn’t ideal. 
 

Edit: on second thought, I think about it like this:

 

If Singletary went down on the first play of the game, they could get by in our pass heavy offense with one RB and Taiwan in spells.
 

If Davis or Diggs went down on the first play of the game, I wouldn’t feel nearly as confident relying on Kumerow to play a major role. 

 

But as was pointed out earlier - if Diggs or Davis go down - you aren’t seeing Kumerow.  First man in during Pre-season was McKenzie - then Crowder.  So if you lose WR#1 - the spread is WR2, WR3 outside, and WR4 - with Kumerow giving spot spells as needed.  They also have the ability to go to larger personnel packages with 2 WRs and Knox or Cook split out filling in for a WR.

 

There is no difference either way a position group is short - they will fill in as needed. Lots of good players are going to end up inactive due to talent - game #1 it was Shakir.  It will be someone else next.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

On 9/10/2022 at 10:53 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

If I remember which thread it is I will come back once the Kumerow run plays v pass plays numbers are up. 

 

Numbers are up @Thurman#1 - Kumerow was in for 14 plays (24% of the offensive snaps). Of those 9 were run plays and 5 were pass plays. He was not targeted on any pass play. Davis played every offensive snap but the kneel down. Stef played 64%. When Stef wasn't in Kumerow was the next man up outside. 

[GunnerBill]

On 9/11/2022 at 4:18 AM, Rochesterfan said:

 

But as was pointed out earlier - if Diggs or Davis go down - you aren’t seeing Kumerow.  First man in during Pre-season was McKenzie - then Crowder.  So if you lose WR#1 - the spread is WR2, WR3 outside, and WR4 - with Kumerow giving spot spells as needed.  They also have the ability to go to larger personnel packages with 2 WRs and Knox or Cook split out filling in for a WR.

 

There is no difference either way a position group is short - they will fill in as needed. Lots of good players are going to end up inactive due to talent - game #1 it was Shakir.  It will be someone else next.

 

He was the next man in outside when Stef came out of the game on Thursday though, that is beyond doubt. Some of that was run package specific I'm sure, but it wasn't all that. He played 14 snaps - 9 of them run plays (which includes the kneel down) and 5 of them pass plays. Of the 13 non-kneel down plays he played 11 wide and 2 in the slot. Of the 11 wide nearly half (5) were pass plays. 

 

Total snaps taken as a wideout (so excluding slot) on Thursday:

 

Gabe Davis: 52

Stefon Diggs: 28

Jake Kumerow: 11

Dawson Knox: 7

Isaiah McKenzie: 5

Reggie Gilliam: 3

Zack Moss: 1

Jamison Crowder: 1

Tommy Sweeney: 1

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:21 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Then you still have one healthy back. You give the ball to your 2nd best RB.
 

If Diggs/Davis get hurt, it may result in our #6 WR, primary a guy kept around for special teams, getting multiple snaps on the perimeter.
 

I guess the parallel I’d make would be if at RB, Singletary went down, and it forgave Taiwan jones into a significant role in offense. It isn’t ideal. 
 

Edit: on second thought, I think about it like this:

 

If Singletary went down on the first play of the game, they could get by in our pass heavy offense with one RB and Taiwan in spells.
 

If Davis or Diggs went down on the first play of the game, I wouldn’t feel nearly as confident relying on Kumerow to play a major role. 

 

It's a single game though - its never ideal when someone is out for a game.  Kumerow is not some entirely incapable player just because he plays special teams.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:21 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Then you still have one healthy back. You give the ball to your 2nd best RB.
 

If Diggs/Davis get hurt, it may result in our #6 WR, primary a guy kept around for special teams, getting multiple snaps on the perimeter.
 

I guess the parallel I’d make would be if at RB, Singletary went down, and it forgave Taiwan jones into a significant role in offense. It isn’t ideal. 
 

Edit: on second thought, I think about it like this:

 

If Singletary went down on the first play of the game, they could get by in our pass heavy offense with one RB and Taiwan in spells.
 

If Davis or Diggs went down on the first play of the game, I wouldn’t feel nearly as confident relying on Kumerow to play a major role. 

We dressed 4 backs in this one - plus gilliam is a fullback.  

 

Draft and preseason or not - the coaching staff feels more comfortable with the vet off the bench for whatever reason.  Special teams plays a part, but he's also a big strong dude who has pretty good hands and a plus blocker at the position.  There's actually situations where that size can play a part without injuries, while shakir's skills overlap with mckenzie and crowder.  

[without a drought]

I expect both the inactives and the way the ball is spread around to be different week to week. If not, then Moss should get the most touches again. It will be dictated by matchups that the Bills think are to their advantage.

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was the next man in outside when Stef came out of the game on Thursday though, that is beyond doubt. Some of that was run package specific I'm sure, but it wasn't all that. He played 14 snaps - 9 of them run plays (which includes the kneel down) and 5 of them pass plays. Of the 13 non-kneel down plays he played 11 wide and 2 in the slot. Of the 11 wide nearly half (5) were pass plays. 

 

Total snaps taken as a wideout (so excluding slot) on Thursday:

 

Gabe Davis: 52

Stefon Diggs: 28

Jake Kumerow: 11

Dawson Knox: 7

Isaiah McKenzie: 5

Reggie Gilliam: 3

Zack Moss: 1

Jamison Crowder: 1

Tommy Sweeney: 1

 

 

In that game with no injuries - yes they gave Kumerow plenty of snaps - especially blocking, but a few routes.

 

The issue that I was responding to was if Diggs or Davis actually got hurt and just because they played Kumerow in the outside role as a breather for Diggs - does not mean that would be exactly what was done if Diggs or Davis were missing time due to injury.

 

To look at that scenario- I think the more appropriate look would be to preseason games where Diggs or Davis were out and in those games - McKenzie and Crowder both got a few snaps outside (along with Shakir).  
 

That leads me to believe in game - you would see multiple people filling in - including Kumerow, but I don’t believe you would see Kumerow as the primary outside guy to replace an injured WR at a time you were still playing significant offense.  He would still be used to spell guys and get a few snaps.

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but when you are resting a guy versus an injury - I think that changes how you utilize depth.  We have seen that with McD on the OL where a back-up might come in to finish a series if a starter got dinged, but as soon as there was a break - they reconfigured the OL before the next drive and shifted players around to get the next best group.

 

I think the WR would be the same,  if a starter goes down - Kumerow maybe gets a few snaps, while they decide how Crowder or McKenzie could fill the role and then they go forward with a slot guy working outside for the rest of the game and Kumerow goes back to filling in for rest breaks - maybe a few extra snaps, but not the rest of the game.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

38 minutes ago, without a drought said:

I expect both the inactives and the way the ball is spread around to be different week to week. If not, then Moss should get the most touches again. It will be dictated by matchups that the Bills think are to their advantage.

 

I really feel like the only reason Moss got as many snaps as he did, was because of Cook's fumble.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

20 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

In that game with no injuries - yes they gave Kumerow plenty of snaps - especially blocking, but a few routes.

 

The issue that I was responding to was if Diggs or Davis actually got hurt and just because they played Kumerow in the outside role as a breather for Diggs - does not mean that would be exactly what was done if Diggs or Davis were missing time due to injury.

 

To look at that scenario- I think the more appropriate look would be to preseason games where Diggs or Davis were out and in those games - McKenzie and Crowder both got a few snaps outside (along with Shakir).  
 

That leads me to believe in game - you would see multiple people filling in - including Kumerow, but I don’t believe you would see Kumerow as the primary outside guy to replace an injured WR at a time you were still playing significant offense.  He would still be used to spell guys and get a few snaps.

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but when you are resting a guy versus an injury - I think that changes how you utilize depth.  We have seen that with McD on the OL where a back-up might come in to finish a series if a starter got dinged, but as soon as there was a break - they reconfigured the OL before the next drive and shifted players around to get the next best group.

 

I think the WR would be the same,  if a starter goes down - Kumerow maybe gets a few snaps, while they decide how Crowder or McKenzie could fill the role and then they go forward with a slot guy working outside for the rest of the game and Kumerow goes back to filling in for rest breaks - maybe a few extra snaps, but not the rest of the game.

 

 

 

I dunno, is Kumerow really so bad that we need to worry about who's active and inactive?  People will get banged up.  Crowder has appeared in 12 or fewer games over the last 4 seasons - and he's another year older.  He's pulled his calf or groin (which he pulled in camp btw) basically every year for the last few.  

 

If Shakir isn't active much this year?  Good news, we had a clean bill of health at WR and he'll be ready to contribute.  

[Alphadawg7]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was the next man in outside when Stef came out of the game on Thursday though, that is beyond doubt. Some of that was run package specific I'm sure, but it wasn't all that. He played 14 snaps - 9 of them run plays (which includes the kneel down) and 5 of them pass plays. Of the 13 non-kneel down plays he played 11 wide and 2 in the slot. Of the 11 wide nearly half (5) were pass plays. 

 

Total snaps taken as a wideout (so excluding slot) on Thursday:

 

Gabe Davis: 52

Stefon Diggs: 28

Jake Kumerow: 11

Dawson Knox: 7

Isaiah McKenzie: 5

Reggie Gilliam: 3

Zack Moss: 1

Jamison Crowder: 1

Tommy Sweeney: 1

 

 

These snap counts dont tell the whole story, as when those snaps occured.  I don't know this answer, so legitimately asking...how many of those snaps that he actually lined up at WR for a pass play where late in the game up multiple scores?  For example, if he ran 5 pass plays, but 4 of them were the 4th quarter up 3 scores, that doesn't say as much about his usage compared to say getting 5 pass plays during meaningful moments.  

[947]

This week, Settle or Oliver (maybe both) will likely be inactive, so it'll be easy for them to activate Shakir. Lawson would also be activated if it's both.

 

Going forward though, it's likely that either a WR or RB is inactive each week. If everyone is healthy, one of: Moss, Cook, Shakir, Kumerow, or Crowder will have to be it.

[Alphadawg7]

38 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I really feel like the only reason Moss got as many snaps as he did, was because of Cook's fumble.  

 

1.  I won't be surprised to see Moss inactive this week, he had the worst game of any player on either side of the ball last week that included a turnover too..  Our RB's only ran the ball 15 times, Devin alone is more than capable of handling all 15, and Cook is more than capable of handling a few those himself if they want to spell Devin at all.  Devin is by far the superior RB to Moss in just about every way, and I don't even have anything against Moss, just Devin is flat out better.  And with the added dimension of Josh Allen, we definitely don't need 5 active RB's on top of that like we did last week.  

 

2.  I totally agree, Moss had a higher snap count 100% because of Cook's fumble.  They used that as a teachable moment for the kid and pulled him.  He is a big part of their game plan, and even some of the players said he was doing special things and camp and will be a part of this offense this year after the week 1 fumble.  Cook will be back on the field and get a chance to redeem himself this week I suspect.  

 

As far as this thread on Shakir, I know he is in their plans this year, so I think it is a strong probability he is active this week.

[Dopey]

8 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

We dressed 4 backs in this one - plus gilliam is a fullback.  

 

Draft and preseason or not - the coaching staff feels more comfortable with the vet off the bench for whatever reason.  Special teams plays a part, but he's also a big strong dude who has pretty good hands and a plus blocker at the position.  There's actually situations where that size can play a part without injuries, while shakir's skills overlap with mckenzie and crowder.  

I said last year our wr group wasn’t strong in the run block game. Didn’t really pay attention to the wr blocking last week but hopefully Kumerow and Davis and their size helps this year. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Dopey

[Scott7975]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

1.  I won't be surprised to see Moss inactive this week, he had the worst game of any player on either side of the ball last week that included a turnover too..  Our RB's only ran the ball 15 times, Devin alone is more than capable of handling all 15, and Cook is more than capable of handling a few those himself if they want to spell Devin at all.  Devin is by far the superior RB to Moss in just about every way, and I don't even have anything against Moss, just Devin is flat out better.  And with the added dimension of Josh Allen, we definitely don't need 5 active RB's on top of that like we did last week.  

 

2.  I totally agree, Moss had a higher snap count 100% because of Cook's fumble.  They used that as a teachable moment for the kid and pulled him.  He is a big part of their game plan, and even some of the players said he was doing special things and camp and will be a part of this offense this year after the week 1 fumble.  Cook will be back on the field and get a chance to redeem himself this week I suspect.  

 

As far as this thread on Shakir, I know he is in their plans this year, so I think it is a strong probability he is active this week.

 

Id like to say I wouldnt be surprised too but this coaching staff is in love with Moss. He wasnt even 100% last season and they still tried to use him over Singletary and I bitched about it all season until they finally used Singletary.

[Doc Brown]

10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

These snap counts dont tell the whole story, as when those snaps occured.  I don't know this answer, so legitimately asking...how many of those snaps that he actually lined up at WR for a pass play where late in the game up multiple scores?  For example, if he ran 5 pass plays, but 4 of them were the 4th quarter up 3 scores, that doesn't say as much about his usage compared to say getting 5 pass plays during meaningful moments.  

As an outside receiver, he ran seven snaps in the first half (five in the 1st quarter and two in the 2nd quarter) and four in the second half (all in the 3rd quarter).  None in the 4th.  The Bills didn't run many snaps in the 4th because of the prolonged Rams garbage time drives and Moss fumbling.  So, all five pass plays I'd consider meaningful and he was usually the backup when Diggs needed a rest.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Doc Brown

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

These snap counts dont tell the whole story, as when those snaps occured.  I don't know this answer, so legitimately asking...how many of those snaps that he actually lined up at WR for a pass play where late in the game up multiple scores?  For example, if he ran 5 pass plays, but 4 of them were the 4th quarter up 3 scores, that doesn't say as much about his usage compared to say getting 5 pass plays during meaningful moments.  

 

He was normally the guy they were sending in when Stef came to the sideline. He definitely was out there in that first drive of the 2nd half running routes because I confused him for Sweeney until I watched the game back. I would need to go through again and chart exactly when those 5 plays came but they were not when they were up 21. The only pass play we ran up 21 was the waggle where Josh ended up tucking and running and getting whacked unnecessarily and the formation on that play was Diggs and Gilliam wide, Gilliam coming in motion across the formation and Davis (who was the read on the play) in the slot. Nor was it on the drive up 14 where we ran three plays and the wideouts were Diggs and Davis, then Diggs and Knox, then Diggs and Davis again. 

 

I think what is going on a little bit here is fans don't want Kumerow to be the first guy in outside. But most of what the Bills have done is telling you - he is their guy. Now I don't doubt for a minute that if Diggs or Davis were to miss a game they wouldn't just stick Kumerow in for 80-90% of the snaps and run the same offense. They would mix and match and use some Shakir and some McKenzie and have some Dawson Knox split wide. But I suspect in that situation if we looked at who had the highest snap number on the outside at the end of the game we would find again that it is Jake Kumerow. 

 

11 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

In that game with no injuries - yes they gave Kumerow plenty of snaps - especially blocking, but a few routes.

 

The issue that I was responding to was if Diggs or Davis actually got hurt and just because they played Kumerow in the outside role as a breather for Diggs - does not mean that would be exactly what was done if Diggs or Davis were missing time due to injury.

 

To look at that scenario- I think the more appropriate look would be to preseason games where Diggs or Davis were out and in those games - McKenzie and Crowder both got a few snaps outside (along with Shakir).  
 

That leads me to believe in game - you would see multiple people filling in - including Kumerow, but I don’t believe you would see Kumerow as the primary outside guy to replace an injured WR at a time you were still playing significant offense.  He would still be used to spell guys and get a few snaps.

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but when you are resting a guy versus an injury - I think that changes how you utilize depth.  We have seen that with McD on the OL where a back-up might come in to finish a series if a starter got dinged, but as soon as there was a break - they reconfigured the OL before the next drive and shifted players around to get the next best group.

 

I think the WR would be the same,  if a starter goes down - Kumerow maybe gets a few snaps, while they decide how Crowder or McKenzie could fill the role and then they go forward with a slot guy working outside for the rest of the game and Kumerow goes back to filling in for rest breaks - maybe a few extra snaps, but not the rest of the game.

 

I don't recall Crowder playing wide at all in pre-season, certainly not with the 1s and 2s. I think he missed game 1 from memory, then game two they definitely started Diggs and Davis wide, Isaiah in the slot. Diggs came out first and then went McKenzie wide and Crowder in the slot. Then they took Davis out put Kumerow in and then McKenzie out Shakir in and Crowder stayed in the slot. I might have missed an odd play somewhere but if he did it was definitely just an odd play in a certain formation. McKenzie they did have a bit more of a proper look at split wide. But Crowder I think they have pretty much stuck to slot duty. 

 

As I said above... I think they would mix and match if one of their top 2 missed time. But they would use Kumerow a lot in that mixing and matching I think. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by GunnerBill

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

As an outside receiver, he ran seven snaps in the first half (five in the 1st quarter and two in the 2nd quarter) and four in the second half (all in the 3rd quarter).  None in the 4th.  The Bills didn't run many snaps in the 4th because of the prolonged Rams garbage time drives and Moss fumbling.  So, all five pass plays I'd consider meaningful and he was usually the backup when Diggs needed a rest.

 

Cheers Doc. Saves me a job. I had got as far as none in the 4th. 

[Doc Brown]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Cheers Doc. Saves me a job. I had got as far as none in the 4th. 

No problem.  I don't even think Allen looked his way on the passing plays.  I was impressed overall with the different looks Dorsey presented the defense.

[ehfeuh57]

Please be active Monday Might