Allen's frequent running

[Malazan]

1 minute ago, QCity said:

I'm curious if you can name a running QB that had a long career.

 

According to your shifting goalposts? That's obviously unlikely as I already provided several examples and data on where most QB injuries occur. 

 

I'd appreciate it if you have actual data and not your random feelings. 

 

Can you provide data on the 'average' career of 'pocket' passers vs 'running' qbs? Can you provide any data at all? 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Malazan

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 minute ago, Malazan said:

 

According to your shifting goalposts? That's obviously unlikely. 

 

I'd appreciate it if you have actual data and not your random feelings. 

c'mon man.  We ALL love his grit and toughness but I keep seeing Joe Theismann's leg.  He's far too valuable for a 3rd down conversion miss.

[Malazan]

4 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

c'mon man.  We ALL love his grit and toughness but I keep seeing Joe Theismann's leg.  He's far too valuable for a 3rd down conversion miss.

 

Then you must hate Allen being in the pocket. Joe Theissmann was injured while in the pocket on a flea flicker. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Malazan

[QCity]

2 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

According to your shifting goalposts? That's obviously unlikely as I already provided several examples and data on where most QB injuries occur. 

 

I'd appreciate it if you have actual data and not your random feelings. 

 

Can you provide data on the 'average' career of 'pocket' passers vs 'running' qbs? Can you provide any data at all? 

 

 

Sure. There are 0 running QB's that have had a long, successful career. There are certainly "mobile" QB's as you described like Young, Elway, Rodgers, Wilson that simply take 8 yards when given and go out of bounds or slide.

 

Cam Newton went from MVP to being washed before he was 30. You want a Nostradamus prediction? Lamaar Jackson at the age of 25 has 2-3 years of playing in this style left. Then he's going to have to rely on his arm (yikes).

 

 

[TBBills]

4 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

c'mon man.  We ALL love his grit and toughness but I keep seeing Joe Theismann's leg.  He's far too valuable for a 3rd down conversion miss.

QBs actually have a higher injury rate from the pocket. Josh Alen isn't your normal QB also, he was laughing and smiling as he was hitting those guys last night. He is the one who people don't want to tackle b.c they are afraid they will get hurt.

[Malazan]

2 minutes ago, QCity said:

Cam Newton went from MVP to being washed before he was 30. You want a Nostradamus prediction? Lamaar Jackson at the age of 25 has 2-3 years of playing in this style left. Then he's going to have to rely on his arm (yikes).

 

I've already told you that both of Newton's injuries didn't come from running. His shoulder injury which is when it's widely considered he started sucking came when he tried to make a tackle after an interception. Please explain how that is related to his running?

 

Also, his second injury to his foot was evading a sack. 

 

So should Josh stop attempting to evade sacks? 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Malazan

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 minute ago, TBBills said:

QBs actually have a higher injury rate from the pocket. Josh Alen isn't your normal QB also, he was laughing and smiling as he was hitting those guys last night. He is the one who people don't want to tackle b.c they are afraid they will get hurt.

but he's still human and things break.  don't get me wrong.  wouldn't want any other qb but there r some extraordinary defensive beasts he will face and some will be looking to hurt him.

[Thurman#1]

45 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

What history has shown this? Please name the QBs you are talking about. 

 

Randall Cunningham: 15 seasons

Mike Vick: 13 seasons

Steve Young: 15 seasons

Kordell Stewart: 9 seasons

Donovan McNabb: 13 seasons

John Elway: 16 seasons

Steve McNair: 13 seasons 

 

Almost every commonly cited rushing quarterback used as an example to avoid running had their most significant injury happen in the pocket or on a fluke play(like RGIII who got injured recovering a fumble). 

 

 

 

But there's no way to know whether part of Griffin's injury might have been caused by restriction of motion from previous hits or whatever. Or that his many hits in the future years might have hurt his ability to recover from that injury. He was a running QB whose career was drastically cut short. Would it have been cut short if he hadn't been a running QB? That's arguable, but in fact, he was a running QB whose career was cut short.

 

Cunningham? The last half of his career he was a shell of himself.

 

I give you that Vick's torched career wasn't caused by injury but by moral turpitude but again the last half of his career he wasn't the same. Had that one great year when I thought he might, but he just wasn't good after 2010 as he'd been.

 

Steve Young went 15 seasons but his first seven he played very little. A great player and a guy who didn't lose many games to injury or wear, but it's not like he had 15 years of wear and tear on him. He didn't.

 

Kordell Stewart? 9 seasons? Please. That's how long he was in the league but not how long he played.

 

Elway is a pretty good example. He's also a guy who could run but didn't do it a lot unless he had to. Lasted a long time, though. McNair ran a lot less and was a lot less athletic late, but he's also a good example of a running QB who played well for a long time.

 

But there aren't a ton of them. Although I'd also thrown in Mr. Fran Tarkenton.

[TBBills]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

but he's still human and things break.  don't get me wrong.  wouldn't want any other qb but there r some extraordinary defensive beasts he will face and some will be looking to hurt him.

He has already faced every defensive beast in the NFL... 

[Thurman#1]

2 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

I've already told you that both of Newton's injuries didn't come from running. His shoulder injury which is when it's widely considered he started sucking came when he tried to make a tackle after an interception. Please explain how that is related to his running?

 

Also, his second injury to his foot was evading a sack. 

 

So should Josh stop attempting to evade sacks? 

 

 

Yes.

 

How many of his career problems were caused by those two specific injuries? And how much by drastic wear and tear and being psychologically broken down? You don't know. Nobody does.

 

But what you do know is that he was a running QB whose career appears to have been drastically abbreviated.

 

And Cam was a big strong man who liked to run and didn't mind being hit hard. Sound familiar?

[Malazan]

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

But there's no way to know whether part of Griffin's injury might have been caused by restriction of motion from previous hits or whatever. Or that his many hits in the future years might have hurt his ability to recover from that injury. He was a running QB whose career was drastically cut short. Would it have been cut short if he hadn't been a running QB? That's arguable, but in fact, he was a running QB whose career was cut short.

 

Cunningham? The last half of his career he was a shell of himself.

 

I give you that Vick's torched career wasn't caused by injury but by moral turpitude but again the last half of his career he wasn't the same. Had that one great year when I thought he might, but he just wasn't good after 2010 as he'd been.

 

Steve Young went 15 seasons but his first seven he played very little. A great player and a guy who didn't lose many games to injury or wear, but it's not like he had 15 years of wear and tear on him. He didn't.

 

Kordell Stewart? 9 seasons? Please. That's how long he was in the league but not how long he played.

 

Elway is a pretty good example. He's also a guy who could run but didn't do it a lot unless he had to. Lasted a long time, though. McNair ran a lot less and was a lot less athletic late, but he's also a good example of a running QB who played well for a long time.

 

But there aren't a ton of them. Although I'd also thrown in Mr. Fran Tarkenton.

 

Cunningham certainly declined, but most pocket passers also decline. He also had his best year by in year 13. 

 

As I also displayed, many, many more injuries occur in the pocket. Many more 'big hits' occur in the pocket against a stationary QB. 

 

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't look to have Josh run less. The concern about it vastly overblown though. 

 

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Yes.

 

How many of his career problems were caused by those two specific injuries? And how much by drastic wear and tear and being psychologically broken down? You don't know. Nobody does.

 

But what you do know is that he was a running QB whose career appears to have been drastically abbreviated.

 

And Cam was a big strong man who liked to run and didn't mind being hit hard. Sound familiar?

 

Then your argument is a fallacy. All points of data refute your assertion so then saying "Well, maybe there's something we don't know!" is not rational. On top of that, we have even more data showing that QBs take more big hits in the pocket. Why would the hits pocket passers take (which again, are more frequent) not add up on their injuries? 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Malazan

[Joe Ferguson forever]

4 minutes ago, TBBills said:

He has already faced every defensive beast in the NFL... 

true.  it only takes one big, poorly placed, lawrence taylor like hit.  the odds for him and us are better if

he does a few more throw aways imo

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by redtail hawk

[Malazan]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

true.  it only takes one big, poorly plashed hit.  the odds for him and usb are better ifs he does avfew more throw aways imo

 

 

The odds of him taking that hit are greatly increased IN the pocket than on a designed run. 

[TBBills]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

true.  it only takes one big, poorly plashed hit.  the odds for him and usb are better ifs he does avfew more throw aways imo

 

Actually the big poorly planned hit will come from the pocket more often than when a QB that is like Josh is running. 

 

It's the blindside hit on a QB standing still that does the most damage.

Who looked worse atht end of the night? Josh the guy who was hitting players or Stafford the pocket QB who couldn't run? 

 

Stafford looked like he just wanted the night to end by the 6th sack.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 minute ago, TBBills said:

Actually the big poorly planned hit will come from the pocket more often than when a QB that is like Josh is running. 

 

It's the blindside hit on a QB standing still that does the most damage.

my typing sucks.  apologies.  maybe, but he could slide a bit more on his runs.  agreed?  i think he's earned the brady treatment from the refs at this point.

 

[Malazan]

5 minutes ago, TBBills said:

Actually the big poorly planned hit will come from the pocket more often than when a QB that is like Josh is running. 

 

It's the blindside hit on a QB standing still that does the most damage.

Who looked worse atht end of the night? Josh the guy who was hitting players or Stafford the pocket QB who couldn't run? 

 

Stafford looked like he just wanted the night to end by the 6th sack.

 

Stafford was literally bleeding. 

[TBBills]

1 minute ago, redtail hawk said:

my typing sucks.  apologies.  maybe, but he could slide a bit more on his runs.  agreed?  i think he's earned the brady treatment from the refs at this point.

 

Yea most definitely 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

30 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

Then you must hate Allen being in the pocket. Joe Theissmann was injured while in the pocket on a flea flicker. 

a flea flicker is not a pocket passer play.   it's havoc versus huge plays. should we not do flea flickers?  no.  but we should try to balance risk/reward.

Edited September 10, 2022 by redtail hawk

[Malazan]

6 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

a flea flicker is not a pocket passer play.   it's havoc versus huge plays. should we not do flea flickers?  no.  but we should try to balance risk/reward.

 

I mean, he got the ball back from the running back and was in the pocket such as it was at that point. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

4 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

I mean, he got the ball back from the running back and was in the pocket such as it was at that point. 

takes a long time to develop...i like the 2.2 or whatever seconds to release.  they're plenty good enough w that imo.rams were a big game and statement.  he didn't get hurt.  i don't think we need it against the jests or even the patsies.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by redtail hawk