Allen's frequent running

[Big Turk]

This is his 5th year here...pretty sure we should all already know how he is going to play the game. No surprises how Allen is going to run. Not sure why this is a surprise.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Big Turk

[Jerome007]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He took a pretty good beating yesterday.   Fortunately he was well off the ground when Donald sacked him and his neck snapped back.    I think it's going to be hard to get him to stop running if they keep him in the shotgun all the time though.

That's called getting sacked. It wasn't about him running...

 

Yes I was too hot when I saw him run like a madman 3 TD ahead but it was obvious it was HIS call. Not even a RPO. A pass that wasn't open. For the rest, the biggest hits he took were in the pocket.  He mainly ran in the 3rd quarter, to win. Not like it was called from play #1.

52 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I wonder when they get married. They’ve been together like 10 years. What could he possibly be waiting for? 

Why would he want to risk half of his assets? They are already a happy couple. Inviting the State as a 3rd partner is a wise choice in 2022? This ain't our grandparents' kind of marriage anymore.

[JoshAllin]

Just slide, right? 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by motorj

[The Firebaugh Kid]

It's bugging all of us. He's got to be more cautious about it 

[muppy]

53 minutes ago, Believer said:

Good thread… Good discussion…

 

It is up to McDermott… He is the Coach… He set a goal for the team when he came to Buffalo… just like Von Miller and others… To win a Super Bowl…

 

Pegula and Beane gave him the tools… and the team, the organization and fans are all in… The goal is in sight this year…

 

Fact is, McDermott needs to protect his most important franchise player…

 

Coach needs to sit Dorsey and Allen down and make them appreciate if Allen gets hurt, will be much more difficult for the Bills to reach their goal…

 

Dorsey and Allen need to respect the goal, the organization, the team, and the fans… Play to win every game… whatever it takes… Do their jobs…And do them smart… 

I think this post about covers all the bases. It makes perfect common sense. 

 

On the one hand. Josh has said he realized he needs to be a smart QB and make decisions that will help the team Win. Period.  More common sense. All we fanbase are saying is okay #17 you made your point . You are 100% baller in all aspects.  Just don't put your body on the line  if at all possible Please. MORE Common sense.

 

We need you healthy. 

 

To the bolded I say that is Deep. I take "do their jobs" as a mandate of professionalism and Excellence. Smartness is a given None of these guys are mental slouches 🙂

 

Whatever it takes? On premise Yes I think I know what you mean.  . but the thought gave me pause like hmmm ..anyway

 great talk. GO BILLS!~!~!!!

 

m

Edited September 10, 2022 by muppy

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said:

So what did you want him to do in that situation? 

 

Get down?   Not try to break a tackle there when there is virtually no chance of escaping and avoiding getting clocked in the process?

 

 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I think with Allen it's easy to think the highlighted...........and totally forget that sometimes a QB actually needs to give up on plays and throw the ball away and avoid hits ALTOGETHER.

 

The consensus seemed to be last season, that Allen had started to throw the ball away instead of trying to win every down.

 

He didn't last night, of course, but he was doing something that is a new development for him and as or more important - he threw the checkdown, or he took the short pass, and he threw it promptly when the receiver still has some space to make some yards.

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I thought McDermott made a very insightful comment when he was asked about Allen's running and implied that Dorsey needs to call plays that don't encourage Allen to run.    This was exactly what I was suggesting earlier in this thread.........when you call plays that make it tempting to tuck and run then you are asking for him to do it.   When you are trying to protect Allen from his own competitive nature you have to call plays accordingly.

 

It's hard to disagree with your last two sentences, of course.

 

In the Friday interview, McDermott's comment was to the effect that it was a "Waggle Pass", the receiver was covered, so there was no option but for Josh to run, and that's something as coaches they can do better.  I didn't take it as a call-out against challenging Josh's competitive nature, but simply avoiding plays at that point in the game where by design there are two options, and if the receiver is covered a run by Josh is the only other choice.

 

Were those comments made in the post-game presser?  I just listened again, and didn't hear.  I know Steve Tasker made a huge point in the post game show exactly as you state, that maybe the RPOs (where Josh reads the conflict defender and chooses an option) shouldn't be called at that point of the game.

 

Josh definitely had his adrenaline up at the end of the game, and his lips said "the best ability is availability, get down, get out of bounds" but his behavior didn't align with those words.

11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Get down?   Not try to break a tackle there when there is virtually no chance of escaping and avoiding getting clocked in the process?

 

I'm not quite sure we're watching the same play?  I thought Josh tried evade and step up, but there was no pocket to step into.  It was a jailbreak, bang-bang play, not one of those where Josh tries to run out of trouble.

[Artful Dodger]

1 hour ago, JMM said:

It's not just the running,  it's the continued refusing to slide and run out of bounds. He keeps saying I will, then doesn't. He has got to stop seeking contact. 

 

Everyone needs a hobby. Some people collect stamps, some people watch football games.  Allen's hobby is running through and over linebackers and defensive backs.

[JMM]

29 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

Everyone needs a hobby. Some people collect stamps, some people watch football games.  Allen's hobby is running through and over linebackers and defensive backs.

Yes but those hobbies don't get you broken ribs or a dislocated shoulder. 

[Malazan]

14 hours ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

 

Actually, studies show that QBs that run the least and QBs that run the most are the least injured. 

 

Really good breakdown here: https://www.filmstudybaltimore.com/new-study-quarterbacks-that-run-most-are-not-injured-most/

[QCity]

14 hours ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

 

It's not sustainable, history has shown that. Running QB's don't last. Hell, even running backs don't last in this league anymore.

[Malazan]

3 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

It's not sustainable, history has shown that. Running QB's don't last. Hell, even running backs don't last in this league anymore.

 

What history has shown this? Please name the QBs you are talking about. 

 

Randall Cunningham: 15 seasons

Mike Vick: 13 seasons

Steve Young: 15 seasons

Kordell Stewart: 9 seasons

Donovan McNabb: 13 seasons

John Elway: 16 seasons

Steve McNair: 13 seasons 

 

Almost every commonly cited rushing quarterback used as an example to avoid running had their most significant injury happen in the pocket or on a fluke play(like RGIII who got injured recovering a fumble). 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Malazan

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

It's not sustainable, history has shown that. Running QB's don't last. Hell, even running backs don't last in this league anymore.

The most rushing attempts he’s ever had.. was 122 in a 17 game season 

 

Good for 7 attempts a game which is not a heavy workload … Not to mention running backs go head on into defensive tackles a lot

 

Josh is a master scrambler who gets outside the tackle box the majority and goes against smaller players 

 

Josh is the size of Travis Kelce.. Not a running back

 

[John from Riverside]

15 hours ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

Josh Allen has literally been doing this his whole football career the only problem with the fact that he runs a lot is that it’s not really a sustainable way of winning a championship we need to get everyone involved in order to have a balanced office and win we need a running game for the running backs actually gain more yards than the quarterback Josh Allen has come along way in that area but more needs to be done but I saw in Thursday’s game was as soon as motor stop carrying the ball the level of productivity of the running backs went immediately down motor needs it more or we need a better back behind him Which I believe should still be cook even though he fumbled the ball when his only carry

[QCity]

7 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

What history has shown this? Please name the QBs you are talking about. 

 

Randall Cunningham: 15 seasons

Mike Vick: 13 seasons

Steve Young: 15 seasons

Kordell Stewart: 9 seasons

Donovan McNabb: 13 seasons

John Elway: 16 seasons

Steve McNair: 13 seasons 

 

Almost every commonly cited rushing quarterback used as an example to avoid running had their most significant injury happen in the pocket or on a fluke play(like RGIII who got injured recovering a fumble). 

 

Randall Cunningham blew out his ACL in like his 5th year. He was washed up after that. You trying to claim him playing the next 10 years as a gimped backup is a pretty disingenuous argument, but I'll play along.

 

Mike Vick simply wasn't a good passer to begin with, he might be one of the most overrated QB's to ever play the game. Are you telling me when you look at Mike Vick's stats you see 13 years of success??

 

Steve Young wasn't a running QB. There were no designed runs off-tackle for Steve Young. He didn't run sweeps or options. He rolled out and scrambled to buy time and if defenses gave him space, he took it. He played essentially the same game Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson play today.

 

Kordell Stewart you cannot be serious 🤣

 

Donovan McNabb broke his ankle in like his 4th or 5th year IIRC. After that he didn't run anymore, and once that aspect of his game was gone, he didn't have an arm that could win games without running.

 

John Elway see Steve Young

 

Steve McNair see Kordell Stewart

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

Weird that this happened when he was in the pocket as a passer...

 

 

Yeah, weird like the fact that his Wyoming clavicle break came on a scramble, that his 2018 AC joint injury came on a pass rush and his 2019 concussion came on a run. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jabxf8lGjfo

 

That's two of his three major injuries coming on runs when he has far fewer runs than he does passes.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

So, I was at a music festival wearing a 17 jersey and the "go Bills" fist bumps (from strangers in SW Virginia and elsewhere) were flowing...and i confidently said, It's over.  We're doing it this year.  And then I worried about Allen getting hurt.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Malazan said:

 

Actually, studies show that QBs that run the least and QBs that run the most are the least injured. 

 

Really good breakdown here: https://www.filmstudybaltimore.com/new-study-quarterbacks-that-run-most-are-not-injured-most/

 

 

 

It's a breakdown whose assumptions and methods make it kind of questionable. She treats games missed as her unit of study, but by her assumptions, guys like Cam Newton and Robert Griffin III didn't miss all that many games.

 

She didn't look at what caused injuries. And she didn't look (nor could you, really, but it's the absolute main point) of how shortened the careers of guys like Griffin III and Cam Newton have been.

 

That's two guys out of a group of 12 QBs with the highest run percentages.

[Malazan]

28 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

Randall Cunningham blew out his ACL in like his 5th year. He was washed up after that. You trying to claim him playing the next 10 years as a gimped backup is a pretty disingenuous argument, but I'll play along.

 

Mike Vick simply wasn't a good passer to begin with, he might be one of the most overrated QB's to ever play the game. Are you telling me when you look at Mike Vick's stats you see 13 years of success??

 

Steve Young wasn't a running QB. There were no designed runs off-tackle for Steve Young. He didn't run sweeps or options. He rolled out and scrambled to buy time and if defenses gave him space, he took it. He played essentially the same game Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson play today.

 

Kordell Stewart you cannot be serious 🤣

 

Donovan McNabb broke his ankle in like his 4th or 5th year IIRC. After that he didn't run anymore, and once that aspect of his game was gone, he didn't have an arm that could win games without running.

 

John Elway see Steve Young

 

Steve McNair see Kordell Stewart

 

I see you are quite misinformed and are trying top use several points that are either strawman or random flailing. 

 

Cunningham's injury came on a sack, not a run. 

 

What does Vick's ability as a passer have to do with injury? 

 

Steve Young is considered a 'mobile' or 'running' QB by everyone. He had more Rush yards than Josh did in 2019 or 2020. Would you like many, many differnt resources that consider him a 'running' QB? He had 5 seasons with over 400 rushing yards. It was also a different era. RPOs weren't nearly as prevalent. 

 

Your assertion that Kordell Stewart was a pocket passer is certainly a unique take. 

 

Donovan McNabb's broken ankle was on a sack. 

 

I'll concede on Elway. He only had roughly 50 attempts a season and ~250 yards. 

 

Again, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone describe Steve McNair as a pocket passer. 

 

 

QBs that ran less than 5.5% of plays missed 8.5% of their games. QBs that ran more than 12% of the time missed 9.5% of their games. QBs that ran 5.5% to 12% of the time missed ~11.5% of their games. 

 

You can see injury rates on types on plays:

 

Knockdowns: 1 injury every 57.1 plays (90 total injuries on 5,135 plays for a 1.8% injury rate)

Sacks: 1 injury every 75.1 plays (52 total injuries on 3,903 for a 1.3% injury rate)

Scrambles: 1 injury every 106.7 plays (23 total injuries on 2,455 plays for a 0.9% injury rate)

Designed runs: 1 injury for every 174.2 plays (11 total injuries on 1,916 plays for an 0.6% injury rate)

(John Verros, the injury coordinator at Sports Info Solutions)

 

I'm curious if you have any information beyond your feelings. 

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

It's a breakdown whose assumptions and methods make it kind of questionable. She treats games missed as her unit of study, but by her assumptions, guys like Cam Newton and Robert Griffin III didn't miss all that many games.

 

She didn't look at what caused injuries. And she didn't look (nor could you, really, but it's the absolute main point) of how shortened the careers of guys like Griffin III and Cam Newton have been.

 

That's two guys out of a group of 12 QBs with the highest run percentages.

 

I'm not sure you got through the whole thing.. You can see above for more information.

 

As I mentioned, RGIII suffered that injury that is attributed to the decline in his play in a non-contact injury recovering a fumble. 

 

Cam Newton suffered the first injury that people attribute with a decline in his play (shoulder) attempting a tackle after an interception. His foot injury came evading a sack.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Malazan

[QCity]

5 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

I'm curious if you have any information beyond your feelings. 

 

 

I'm curious if you can name a running QB that had a long career.