Last night was a dominant win. But there was one obvious weak link holding us back... Zach Moss (lead the team in touches)

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

There actually was one run where he looked really quick and gained picked up a decent gain.  But the fumble in garbage time was inexcusable. 

 

More than 1 RAC where Moss picked up a decent gain.  Go back and look.

 

You're right about the fumble though.  You could tell from McDermott's presser that he agrees and Moss is gonna be in the dog-house for that one.

 

8 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I would agree that the passes to him were futile. 

 

Then you're mistaken.

 

4 minutes ago, Ray Finkel said:

Motor averaged 6 yards a carry.  I was screaming at the TV on why he wasn’t in there

 

Motor was getting the majority of the carries as an RB.  

Edited September 9, 2022 by Beck Water

[Gugny]

47 minutes ago, BFLO said:

If the Bills continue to rely on Moss to lead the team in touches, it's going to cost them wins. 

 

6 carries for 15 yards, and 1 fumble. That's 2.5 yards per carry.

6 catches for 21 yards on 6 targets. 3.5 yards per catch. (credit to Moss for catching all 6 targets) 

 

12 total touches/targets for 36 yards or 3 yards per touch. 

 

The Bills attempted 31 passes and ran the ball 24 times (excluding the final kneel down). 

 

55 offensive plays and Moss got the ball on 12 or 21.8% of the total. 

 

More than 1 in 5 plays went to Moss. Yet he accounted for 36 of 412 total yards of offense. 8.7% of the total yards, or about 1 in 12.  

 

Midway into the 3rd Moss accounted for +25% of the total touches. That's more than 1 in 4. 

 

In one of the best offenses in the league Moss consistently has put up pedestrian like numbers. He's average on a good day and below average on most days. He's the least talented and least effective player on offense, yet we give him the largest share of the touches. It's mind blowing. 

 

And it's not like feeding Moss the ball stopped Allen from taking hits either... 

 

I don't see how giving the worst offensive skill player on the team the most touches is a winning strategy in the long term. 

 

 

Yeah, it's pretty disgusting that the Bills offense - against the defending Super Bowl Champions - moved the ball at will, scoring 31 points - even after turning the ball over four times.  Definitely a problem.

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

More than 1 RAC where Moss picked up a decent gain.  Go back and look.

 

You're right about the fumble though.  You could tell from McDermott's presser that he agrees and Moss is gonna be in the dog-house for that one.

 

 

Then you're mistaken.

 

He's usually pretty sure handed, and doesn't really fumble much.  He had that miscue in the 49ers game his rookie year(I believe that fumble was tied to Allen but it was a Moss fumble imo).  In Miami last season he had one get punched out when i think he was stretching for yards similar to this.

 

Motor has 10 fumbles in 3 seasons fwiw.  

[Chandler#81]

14 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I don't want to call you an idiot.  Let's say you're writing like a person without much understanding of what you see in the chess match of football.

 

Moss didn't lead the team in touches because the game plan called his number on a team-leading number of plays.  The Rams were playing to take away the deep and intermediate stuff and betting that the same Josh Allen who got throttled by Pittsburgh using that strategy last season opener (and embarrassingly, by Jax), would get throttled the same way or force the throw and get picked (that happened). 

 

Moss led the team in touches because he, like Singletary, was the check-down option in the passing game on a night when Josh needed to get the ball out quick in the face of pressure.  Moss had 2 more touches than Motor, so it's not as though he was being given a ton more, they were dividing the load between the two backs.  And probably it would have been more Cook and less Moss in that role except they needed the best chipping and blocking from the RBs and also, Cook fumbled.

 

Go look at some of the stuff quoted from Jalen Ramsey.  "I feel like we kind of had a mentality like, 'bend, don't break' a lot, because they were driving the ball but they weren't scoring, like, we were getting turnovers, interceptions, whatever it was."  That was their strategy, give up the short stuff, wager that Josh won't take it, and capitalize on mistakes.

 

Instead, Allen showed that now, this year, he was willing to dink and dunk and take the checkdown.  This is a HUGE step forward in Josh's game.  Collinsworth correctly commented that earlier in his career, Josh wouldn't have done that.  I was literally jumping up and down and screaming because it's been the "missing piece" in his passing game.  You wanna send everyone on a jailbreak?  *Flick* get it out and at least get back to the LOS.  Get 1 yd, 2 yds, 7 yds, 8 yds.  Average 3.5 yds per reception.

 

It moved the chains.   10 plays, 11 plays, 15 plays.  Then when LA figured out that strategy of letting the Bills grind down the field was working against their need for points, they decided to send the house (cover 0) and Josh burned them like a blowtorch, right down the middle of the field to Davis. 

 

The only problem was Moss fumbling.  He can't do that.  Ditto Cook.  Muscle Hamster has to tuck it away and not double-catch it if he wants to be The Man in the slot.  And I need to watch to see what happened with Crowder.  My first impression was Josh shouldn't have thrown that one, but Crowder could have come back towards the ball and boxed out the defender.  I think that's a familiarity with Josh thing, the QB's he's played with would throw an arc you can't come back for instead of a dart.

 

The 4 turnovers were the problem, not Moss getting lots of options because he was the checkdown option in the passing game against the league's best defender, causing Josh to need to get the ball out quick. 

 

I personally would like to see MORE touches for Moss and Singletary and fewer designed runs for Josh.  Josh may love it and laugh as he's hit (Singletary said he was) but I don't want to see another season where Josh Allen is the best RB on the Bills.

 

 

 

That’s very nice of you. You’re friendly and polite. WTF are you doing HERE?!? 😳🤣
anyway, -as they say in football- does the spike fit?

[Dopey]

Weak Link?!?! Holding us back!?!?! We won by 21 points, on the road, vs. the defending SB Champs!!! I'm fine with the splits. We are built to be deep at a lot of positions, including RB. Keep them fresh. It seems some here want an all pro at every position or he's our whipping boy. Ain't gonna happen. Given time, our 3 headed RB attack will be just fine. Again, unless you want an all pro at every position, including the back ups. Either that or some of you are just miserable, I guess. Cheer up!

  

 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

He's usually pretty sure handed, and doesn't really fumble much.  He had that miscue in the 49ers game his rookie year(I believe that fumble was tied to Allen but it was a Moss fumble imo).

 

Fumble was on the exchange, at the Mesh Point.  People I trust who know their RB shite put it on Moss.  He was looking ahead instead of first things first.  And I'm pretty sure the scorers charged it to Allen.  [Edit: just looked it up.  It was charged to Allen.  0 fumbles for Moss that game]

 

8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

  In Miami last season he had one get punched out when i think he was stretching for yards similar to this.

 

That's why he's going to be in McDermott's doghouse for that fumble.  McDermott said in his presser that he'd just put the word out "Clock over Yards" meaning keep possession, run the clock don't fight for every yard.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Beck Water

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

Weak Link?!?! Holding us back!?!?! We won by 21 points, on the road, vs. the defending SB Champs!!! I'm fine with the splits. We are built to be deep at a lot of positions, including RB. Keep them fresh. It seems some here want an all pro at every position or he's our whipping boy. Ain't gonna happen. Given time, our 3 headed RB attack will be just fine. Again, unless you want an all pro at every position, including the back ups. Either that or some of you are just miserable, I guess. Cheer up!

  

 

 

You probably play 2 games a season in sustained heat.  I rotate as much as possible in that situation.  

 

Moss also was out there a lot on that 13 play drive for whatever reason, probably something they saw and wanted him in there for pass pro or something. 

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

Fumble was on the exchange, but people I trust who know their RB shite put it on Moss.  He was looking ahead instead of first things first.

 

 

That's why he's going to be in McDermott's doghouse for that fumble.  McDermott said in his presser that he'd just put the word out "Clock over Yards" meaning keep possession, run the clock don't fight for every yard.

 

 

 

I think him and motor are important for the MNF game.  That team has pushed the bills around for a few years now, its time to get physical and push back.  

[Motorin']

21 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I don't want to call you an idiot.  Let's say you're writing like a person without much understanding of what you see in the chess match of football.

 

Moss didn't lead the team in touches because the game plan called his number on a team-leading number of plays.  The Rams were playing to take away the deep and intermediate stuff and betting that the same Josh Allen who got throttled by Pittsburgh using that strategy last season opener (and embarrassingly, by Jax), would get throttled the same way or force the throw and get picked (that happened). 

 

Moss led the team in touches because he, like Singletary, was the check-down option in the passing game on a night when Josh needed to get the ball out quick in the face of pressure.  Moss had 2 more touches than Motor, so it's not as though he was being given a ton more, they were dividing the load between the two backs.  And probably it would have been more Cook and less Moss in that role except they needed the best chipping and blocking from the RBs and also, Cook fumbled.

 

Go look at some of the stuff quoted from Jalen Ramsey.  "I feel like we kind of had a mentality like, 'bend, don't break' a lot, because they were driving the ball but they weren't scoring, like, we were getting turnovers, interceptions, whatever it was."  That was their strategy, give up the short stuff, wager that Josh won't take it, and capitalize on mistakes.

 

Instead, Allen showed that now, this year, he was willing to dink and dunk and take the checkdown.  This is a HUGE step forward in Josh's game.  Collinsworth correctly commented that earlier in his career, Josh wouldn't have done that.  I was literally jumping up and down and screaming because it's been the "missing piece" in his passing game.  You wanna send everyone on a jailbreak?  *Flick* get it out and at least get back to the LOS.  Get 1 yd, 2 yds, 7 yds, 8 yds.  Average 3.5 yds per reception.

 

It moved the chains.   10 plays, 11 plays, 15 plays.  Then when LA figured out that strategy of letting the Bills grind down the field was working against their need for points, they decided to send the house (cover 0) and Josh burned them like a blowtorch, right down the middle of the field to Davis. 

 

The only problem was Moss fumbling.  He can't do that.  Ditto Cook.  Muscle Hamster has to tuck it away and not double-catch it if he wants to be The Man in the slot.  And I need to watch to see what happened with Crowder.  My first impression was Josh shouldn't have thrown that one, but Crowder could have come back towards the ball and boxed out the defender.  I think that's a familiarity with Josh thing, the QB's he's played with would throw an arc you can't come back for instead of a dart.

 

The 4 turnovers were the problem, not Moss getting lots of options because he was the checkdown option in the passing game against the league's best defender, causing Josh to need to get the ball out quick. 

 

I personally would like to see MORE touches for Moss and Singletary and fewer designed runs for Josh.  Josh may love it and laugh as he's hit (Singletary said he was) but I don't want to see another season where Josh Allen is the best RB on the Bills.

 

 

 

 

Very true about the dump offs. But why is Moss getting nearly as many carries as Motor when Devin is averaging 6 yards per carry and running so hard?

 

Is Moss that much better at pass pro? Cause that's the only thing I can think of, other than Motor caught a slight injury. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

All I hear is blah blah Blackshear

[Wayne Arnold]

Moss has no burst whatsoever.

 

"Look like Tarzan play like Jane."

 

I'm concerned that McDermott and Beane cannot evaluate running back talent.

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Very true about the dump offs. But why is Moss getting nearly as many carries as Motor when Devin is averaging 6 yards per carry and running so hard?

Is Moss that much better at pass pro? Cause that's the only thing I can think of, other than Motor caught a slight injury. 

 

Now we're getting into good questions I don't have fast enough eyes to answer from watching the televised film.

 

I *think* some of those carries were on plays with a run or pass option (not RPOs per se where the conflict defender is read post snap) depending on the pre-snap read, and they wanted Moss there to chip and release as a checkdown option in the pass plays.

 

My impression is that Singletary and Moss are actually about equal in straight pass protection these days - Singletary has worked hard to improve his pass pro game.  But I think Moss still has better hands in the pass game and is better at chipping.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Beck Water

[TFBillsfan]

Looks like Moss has replaced Edmunds for the favorite player to critique on the board this season.

21 point victory opening game and yet still individuals want to complain. Dang can’t we just enjoy a great start to the season. Moss has a role in this offense and will contribute to their overall team success!

[Ray Finkel]

19 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

More than 1 RAC where Moss picked up a decent gain.  Go back and look.

 

You're right about the fumble though.  You could tell from McDermott's presser that he agrees and Moss is gonna be in the dog-house for that one.

 

 

Then you're mistaken.

 

 

Motor was getting the majority of the carries as an RB.  

Moss had 2 less carries for a 2.5 average.  I would like to see motor have those carries

[Big Turk]

Based on what? Moss looked fine last night, fumble not withstanding.  He is a good player. I mean, maybe we will only win by 15 instead of 25 if he gets a bunch of touches?

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Now we're getting into good questions I don't have fast enough eyes to answer from watching the televised film.

 

I *think* some of those carries were on plays with a run or pass option (not RPOs per se) depending on the pre-snap read, and they wanted Moss there to chip and release as a checkdown option in the pass plays.

 

My impression is that Singletary and Moss are actually about equal in straight pass protection these days - Singletary has worked hard to improve his pass pro game. 

 

If it were up to me, Motor would have had 3/4th of Moss and 1/2 of Josh's carries last night. 

[billsfan1959]

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Yeah, it's pretty disgusting that the Bills offense - against the defending Super Bowl Champions - moved the ball at will, scoring 31 points - even after turning the ball over four times.  Definitely a problem.

 

 

Yeah, the Rams were 5th overall in defensive DVOA last year - 6th against the pass and 5th against the run - and they are still a pretty good defense. Many of the yards the Bills got last night were tough. The fact they put up over 400 yards of offense and 31 points, with the four turnovers, is even more impressive.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

34 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Moss has better hands in the pass game, is better at chipping then releasing for the checkdown, and better at gaining a tough yard or two through traffic.

The last part I respectfully disagree. Motor brings it pretty often. 

[Freddie's Dead]

All these posts saying they were supposed to be Cook's touches are obtusely missing the point.  Moss should not have been in the game at all!  Motor should have been in there.  Motor was on fire all night, and for Moss to lead the team in touches is criminal when Motor was ready to go.

[Scott7975]

40 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Moss has better hands in the pass game, is better at chipping then releasing for the checkdown, and better at gaining a tough yard or two through traffic.

 

Does he?  Singletary had 2 catches yesterday on 2 targets as well.  He also had a 79.7% catch rate last season.  Singletary is this teams best back and I agree with the OP.  Moss sees the field way too much.  He just isnt good.  Singletary has a way better yards per attempt and yards per catch. The only thing Moss might be better at is pass blocking.  Time to move on.  Its the same crap as last season.  This team for whatever reason loves him and tries to force him ahead of Singletary every week.  All Moss does is put this team behind the sticks.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Scott7975

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Yeah, the Rams were 5th overall in defensive DVOA last year - 6th against the pass and 5th against the run - and they are still a pretty good defense. Many of the yards the Bills got last night were tough. The fact they put up over 400 yards of offense and 31 points, with the four turnovers, is even more impressive.

How many NFL games have teams won by 21 points when committing 4 turnovers?  That's a pretty obscure stat but I'm guessing its pretty infrequent.   While Moss wasn't very productive the Bills showed a lot of offensive flexibility and the ability to move the ball against a pretty good defense.  This offense as built now has the capability to beat a defense in almost every way imaginable and what Allen/Dorsey demonstrated last night was just as important.  And that's a willingness to do it.

 

The only stat I cared about was 31-10.  At the end of the day its not how you win, its how many you win.