2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[NewEra]

48 minutes ago, Billl said:

 

And?  
2 playoff games- 3 catches 30 yards.  He’s definitely better than Gabe Davis though

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I agree with that, but that's getting a little off track with what the original debate was.

 

It really isn't though. "Most valuable" by its definition has to factor in the team around the player. We all know it's really decided based on stats and usually goes to the QB of the #1 seed in one of the conferences. You could argue that the primary reason Mahomes had better stats than Allen and ended up with the #1 seed is NOT the talent discrepancy between the QBs, but instead the discrepancy between their supporting cast and their coaching. Football is the most context driven sport. It isn't like basketball or baseball where one great player can single handedly take a game over. Coaching also matters more than in other sports. QB can take over a game more than any other position obviously, but the result of any given play or game or season is about a lot more than the QB.

 

10 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

I disagreed with the contention that KC's skill positions are also a lot better than the Bills, which I see as a massive stretch and isn't really supported by the data. 

 

I don't think their skill position players are a lot better. If you had me compare it all, Chiefs have a slight edge in skill position talent, a large edge in OL talent, and a laughably enormous edge in offensive coaching.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by HappyDays

[Billl]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

And?  
2 playoff games- 3 catches 30 yards.  He’s definitely better than Gabe Davis though

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

Yeah well, we were all rooting for KC's demise with the Tyreek departure. I get what you're saying but a couple homer threads aren't the proof you think it is.

[Billz4ever]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It really isn't though. "Most valuable" by its definition has to factor in the team around the player. We all know it's really decided based on stats and usually goes to the QB of the #1 seed in one of the conferences. You could argue that the primary reason Mahomes had better stats than Allen and ended up with the #1 seed is NOT the talent discrepancy between the QBs, but instead the discrepancy between their supporting cast and their coaching. Football is the most context driven sport. It isn't like basketball or baseball where one great player can single handedly take a game over. Coaching also matters more than in other sports. QB can take over a game more than any other position obviously, but the result of any given play or game or season is about a lot more than the QB.

 

 

I don't think their skill position players are a lot better. If you had me compare it all, Chiefs have a slight edge in skill position talent, a large edge in OL talent, and a laughably enormous edge in offensive coaching.

 

You could argue that but it's a bad argument because it's completely based on speculation and a hypothetical situation.  

 

MVP voters aren't going to decide who wins based off of a "If QB A had what QB B does, he'd be the better guy" argument.

 

It's impossible to prove.  If Allen gets a revamped line and better weapons and overtakes Mahomes by his play on the field, then so be it, but he will have then actually proven it on the field.  It can't be based simply on what you think might happen.

 

The award is determined by what did happen, not by what you think would happen in an alternate universe.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It really isn't though. "Most valuable" by its definition has to factor in the team around the player. We all know it's really decided based on stats and usually goes to the QB of the #1 seed in one of the conferences. You could argue that the primary reason Mahomes had better stats than Allen and ended up with the #1 seed is NOT the talent discrepancy between the QBs, but instead the discrepancy between their supporting cast and their coaching. Football is the most context driven sport. It isn't like basketball or baseball where one great player can single handedly take a game over. Coaching also matters more than in other sports. QB can take over a game more than any other position obviously, but the result of any given play or game or season is about a lot more than the QB.

 

 

I don't think their skill position players are a lot better. If you had me compare it all, Chiefs have a slight edge in skill position talent, a large edge in OL talent, and a laughably enormous edge in offensive coaching.

 

MVP has a lot of personal definitions, but the award usually goes to the best QB on the best team record wise with the best stats.  So Mahomes was obviously the MVP.

 

It's really just the 1st team All-Pro award.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

Idk, I didn’t say that.  I don’t think he’s a huge weapon.  
 

There’s no doubt that he’d  be the Bills 2nd best WR.  While I haven’t read much of the board since the bengals game so I can’t speak for everyone, but the real problem lies with the overall talent level of the Bills WR room.  Other than Diggs, everyone else is just a guy. Davis may get paid like he’s more than that.  He can thank Josh Allen, because he’s one of the worst WR2 in the league.  
 

Mahomes has one HUGE advantage. Kelce and Diggs cancel each other out as all pro targets (even though Kelce is superior).  Andy Reid is a massive advantage.  A hall of fame play caller vs a rookie play caller.  Coaching cannot be overstated. In our case, we’ve been completely out coached in 3 straight season ending losses.  

[Billl]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yeah well, we were all rooting for KC's demise with the Tyreek departure. I get what you're saying but a couple homer threads aren't the proof you think it is.

It’s not intended to be proof of anything other than the ever-changing target that exists solely to discount Mahomes’s accomplishments while making excuses for Josh.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

But I have a hard time believing that Dorsey is consistently telling Allen to go long when shorter safer options are available on second and third downs.

 

No I think the offense was designed high to low most of the time. It felt like Dorsey read somewhere that the team with more explosive plays tends to win the game and used that single data point to construct his offense. Very rarely did I see designed reads to Cook/Hines or Knox. To be fair Allen's elbow injury may have made it more difficult to rely on shorter throws down the stretch. It was noticeable after the injury that he was missing short and intermediate passes which I know he can hit in his sleep. Go back and watch the Lions game, it is extremely obvious. And we now know that that injury was more significant than the Bills let on and persisted through the whole season. Allen has spent years refining his mechanics to hit some of those shorter throws which don't come naturally to him, and suddenly had to change those mechanics halfway through a season. We like to think of our favorite football players as gods but human beings are affected by things like that whether they're open about it or not.

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, Billl said:

It’s not intended to be proof of anything other than the ever-changing target that exists solely to discount Mahomes’s accomplishments while making excuses for Josh.

Brother, the OP tried to tell us Tyrod Taylor could make the HoF and that EJ just needed more time.

 

Downplaying Mahomes and uplifting Josh Allen is tame.

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I think the offense was designed high to low most of the time. It felt like Dorsey read somewhere that the team with more explosive plays tends to win the game and used that single data point to construct his offense. Very rarely did I see designed reads to Cook/Hines or Knox. To be fair Allen's elbow injury may have made it more difficult to rely on shorter throws down the stretch. It was noticeable after the injury that he was missing short and intermediate passes which I know he can hit in his sleep. Go back and watch the Lions game, it is extremely obvious. And we now know that that injury was more significant than the Bills let on and persisted through the whole season. Allen has spent years refining his mechanics to hit some of those shorter throws which don't come naturally to him, and suddenly had to change those mechanics halfway through a season. We like to think of our favorite football players as gods but human beings are affected by things like that whether they're open about it or not.

Yep, this offense couldn't sell a screen to save their lives even on the very few times they actually attempted one.  Really no attempt to incorporate Cook or Hines into the passing game outside of an outlet on a checkdown.  The short game had all but disappeared by the end of the season.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Meatloaf63]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I think the offense was designed high to low most of the time. It felt like Dorsey read somewhere that the team with more explosive plays tends to win the game and used that single data point to construct his offense. Very rarely did I see designed reads to Cook/Hines or Knox. To be fair Allen's elbow injury may have made it more difficult to rely on shorter throws down the stretch. It was noticeable after the injury that he was missing short and intermediate passes which I know he can hit in his sleep. Go back and watch the Lions game, it is extremely obvious. And we now know that that injury was more significant than the Bills let on and persisted through the whole season. Allen has spent years refining his mechanics to hit some of those shorter throws which don't come naturally to him, and suddenly had to change those mechanics halfway through a season. We like to think of our favorite football players as gods but human beings are affected by things like that whether they're open about it or not.

The thing is I watched the Rams and Titans game today, the philosophy or execution definitely changed as the season went on. We started short to medium and then went long but not often, because of this it was usually open. Some of it was how we were being defended., but the underneath stuff was there the whole season.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

It’s not intended to be proof of anything other than the ever-changing target that exists solely to discount Mahomes’s accomplishments while making excuses for Josh.

You mean some fans on a team message board would be biased towards the QB that will likely be best player in team history? Say it ain’t so!!!

 

stop trolling.  That’s what you’re doing now. You do a good job on toeing the line most of the time.  Not this time.  Stop it.

[HappyDays]

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

[The Wiz]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

Until the front office invests in offensive talent on the o line and wrs, we will never know.

 

Could end up being the next Matt Stafford, career wise anyways.  All the talent and not with any around him. Oh and Stafford had Megatron like we have diggs.

Edited February 13, 2023 by The Wiz

[ChrisWatson#21]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

And there I was thinking winning the super bowl was something special.  Thanks for opening my eyes my guy👍🏼

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, ChrisWatson#21 said:

And there I was thinking winning the super bowl was something special.

 

It is. Carl Cheffer's parents must be so proud.

[UKBillFan]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

What are our thoughts after the Super Bowl? Nothing special from Mahomes today, just standing back with zero pressure and tossing the ball to completely wide open targets. We've seen him in a Super Bowl with the kind of OL Allen had this past season. It didn't end well. I stand by my claim that Allen is more valuable to his offense than any other player in the league.

The NFL is a team game, dependent on the quality of the coaches and play calling. Having a class QB is important, but not key. Look how far the 49ers went with Purdy, and they would have pushed the Eagles more than they did had he not picked up an injury. 
 

Josh is, physically, the best QB in the league for me but he needs support on the mental side of the game, whilst a better O Line and weapons at his disposal. Put him in the place of Mahomes tonight and the Chiefs would have still won. Put him in the place of Hurts and I think the Eagles may have won. Their coaching calls are what is superior to the Bills at the moment. I’m hopeful Dorsey may grow as a coordinator. McDermott and Frasier less so.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

Put him in the place of Mahomes tonight and the Chiefs would have still won.

 

For sure. That pass protection and so many schemed up wide open throws, and he only needs 182 passing yards? Yeah I think Allen could find a way to match that production. Whereas if Allen passed for 182 yards against the Eagles as a Bill we would lose the game by at least two scores. This is what I've been saying. Allen has to play at the top of his game and make several magical plays for us to have a chance against other good teams. The Chiefs score 38 points against a Super Bowl caliber team without Mahomes breaking a sweat. Just because your QB is great doesn't mean you're not allowed to make it easy for him.

[Meatloaf63]

16 hours ago, Billl said:

When the Chiefs signed him, TBD’s consensus opinion was that he sucked.  Suddenly he was a huge weapon all along and provides Mahomes some insurmountable advantage.

That was never a consensus and just you bending the argument to support your misguided view. He’s not the standout talent of Hill just another piece of the puzzle. 7 catches on 9 targets most for first downs. When has Gabe or McKenzie caught 7 of 9 targets? Mahomes line is what gives him the insurmountable advantage along with a very competent receiving corps. Only a fool couldn’t understand that.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Meatloaf63