2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

Everything you said is true.

 

But what each QB has to work with can be debated with any QB to QB comparison in the league. In the end, all we can go by is what they do on the field.

 

If Josh can get a better line and some more weapons, maybe we see him overtake Mahomes, but the point being is he would have to prove it first on the field.

 

The debate can't simply be boiled down to a hypothetical that says if QB A had what QB B does, he'd be the better one.  He would still have to prove it on the field first.  

 

I hope Beane and Co can get there and get the missing pieces Josh needs.  He deserves it after several years of having the defense prioritized over him IMO.

 

 

[BillsFan130]

47 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

It's just so odd and is hard to pin down the cause.

 

It was like...we've got this great way of keeping the chains moving, but we don't want to do it anymore.  We want to repeatedly chuck it 40 yards instead. 

 

 

A theory I have is Gabe just wasn’t good enough as a short/intermediate route runner.

 

Also, they didn’t have a true slot receiver. I think We missed crowder more than we thought .

 

I am not defending Dorsey as I thought his play calling was bad. However he may have thought with a flawed WR2 and without a true slot receiver who can consistently move the sticks, the best chance to beat teams would be to go deep

 

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

A theory I have is Gabe just wasn’t good enough as a short/intermediate route runner.

 

Also, they didn’t have a true slot receiver. I think We missed crowder more than we thought .

 

I am not defending Dorsey as I thought his play calling was bad. However he may have thought with a flawed WR2 and without a true slot receiver who can consistently move the sticks, the best chance to beat teams would be to go deep

 

Totally agree with the use of the slot, but I don't think it's Crowder they missed as much.  He only had 3 catches on the season when he went down.

 

I think they missed Beasley more than anything.  Say what you want about him and him getting older, but Josh trusted him and was always the guy that could get open and get Josh out of a jam. 

 

That aspect of our offense from the slot all but completely disappeared this year.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My argument is that the Chiefs weapons are not much different. If you want to argue Kelce > Diggs and Juju > Gabe fine, but they are the same tiers of player.

 

I don't think they're the same tiers. Kelce will go down as arguably the greatest TE in history. Diggs will go down as one of the best WRs of his era. I love Diggs but he is not clearly a Hall of Famer at this point. Kelce is a no brainer 1st ballot selection. I don't think you can throw those two in the same bucket.

 

JuJu when he was the #2 to a great #1 option in Pittsburgh had 917 yards as a rookie even though he missed 2 games. His 2nd year he collected 1,426 yards. They tried to make him the #1 WR and that did not work, but as the #2 target to an elite #1 target he had proven himself before he came to KC. Davis on the other hand had 599 and 549 yards his first and second years respectively, and hit a career high of 836 yards this past year. Davis was a fun fantasy football debate in the offseason but otherwise he is an afterthought to most of the wider NFL community. He has yet to prove himself capable of producing as a #2 target in a high volume passing offense. JuJu has already done that. So again, not the same tier.

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think they're the same tiers. Kelce will go down as arguably the greatest TE in history. Diggs will go down as one of the best WRs of his era. I love Diggs but he is not clearly a Hall of Famer at this point. Kelce is a no brainer 1st ballot selection. I don't think you can throw those two in the same bucket.

 

Well yeah, that's because you comparing him to other TEs not simply calling him a receiver, which is the point here.  Offensive production.  If he and Diggs are producing the same numbers on the field, the fact that one is a TE while the other is a WR is making a distinction without a difference.

 

If we were comparing Kelce to Knox, obviously Kelce is better, just as if we compared Diggs to any of the KC WRs.  Where they line up is irrelevant. What they contribute to the offense is the point and in that aspect, they are nearly identical.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

 

[LABILLBACKER]

37 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

It's not ignored on me or I think a majority of our fans.  Players like Cook, Hines, Shakir and Elam all should've not only played more but played earlier. This moronic philosophy of holding back young talent is holding back this team. And it's got to end.

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Hines played 11% of our offensive snaps since the trade. McKinnon played 47% of offensive snaps for the Chiefs. This is a Dorsey vs. Reid stat, not Allen vs. Mahomes.

 

Why we refused to use the explosive RB we traded for, couldn't tell you. Why we refused to throw the ball to the pass catching RB that we spent a 2nd round pick on, couldn't tell you. It goes to show that for all the talk of comparing talent, the biggest discrepancy between Allen and Mahomes this past season BY FAR is coaching. Mahomes got Andy Reid, whose experience designing plays and calling offenses goes without saying. Allen got a first year OC and first time play caller. This commonly gets ignored in the discussion.

 

So if you want to say the offensive weapons are a wash, okay, but there is no argument whatsoever with the offensive line and with the coaching. Why is there even a debate if their situations were comparable? It is not close. I would love to see what the Bills offense looks like for one drive with Case Keenum at QB starting at the 2 line. If anyone here thinks he leads us to a TD, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

 

 

I have never argued that the coaching or offensive line is comparable. Not was I arguing Mahomes vs Allen. I was simply making the point again about the receiving options. It is actually part of my argument for the Bills prioritising the offensive line. Give Allen an extra second to be comfortable before he is looking at the rush or on the move and he will make even the relatively middling weapons look better. He is that good. 

 

If you want to do Mahomes vs Allen, Mahomes played better this year and hence was the MVP. People can quibble about the naming of the award or whatever, I'm not really fussed by that. Doesn't mean Josh Allen isn't an elite Quarterback. He clearly is. 

[HappyDays]

46 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think there is a tremendous argument that pairing a good (not even HoF level, just good) offensive mind with a franchise QB is the secret to sustained success in the NFL.

 

I'm not advocating for firing McD.  But if I was starting a franchise tomorrow, I would try to pair an offensive HC with my franchise QB 10/10 times over a defensive guy.

 

Mahomes had Reid. Rodgers had McCarthy/LaFleur. Brady had BB as his HC, but had McDaniels for almost his entire tenure in NE. Goff/Stafford with McVay.  Zac Taylor and Burrow. 

 

It's no different than OL IMO.  You want continuity, familiarity and limited turnover around your franchise QB.  A great defensive mind is all well and good, but in the salary cap era, it's way easier to have a consistent offense with the same good-great QB over 15 years than great defenses. 

 

I have said my preference after next season if we have another disappointing playoff exit is to hire Ben Johnson as head coach. One year with Detroit and he designed one of the most creative offenses I've ever seen, and got Jared Goff to perform at the best level of his career. My biggest fear is that we give McDermott too many chances and Ben Johnson goes on to become the next Kyle Shanahan with another franchise.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by HappyDays

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think they're the same tiers. Kelce will go down as arguably the greatest TE in history. Diggs will go down as one of the best WRs of his era. I love Diggs but he is not clearly a Hall of Famer at this point. Kelce is a no brainer 1st ballot selection. I don't think you can throw those two in the same bucket.

 

JuJu when he was the #2 to a great #1 option in Pittsburgh had 917 yards as a rookie even though he missed 2 games. His 2nd year he collected 1,426 yards. They tried to make him the #1 WR and that did not work, but as the #2 target to an elite #1 target he had proven himself before he came to KC. Davis on the other hand had 599 and 549 yards his first and second years respectively, and hit a career high of 836 yards this past year. Davis was a fun fantasy football debate in the offseason but otherwise he is an afterthought to most of the wider NFL community. He has yet to prove himself capable of producing as a #2 target in a high volume passing offense. JuJu has already done that. So again, not the same tier.

 

Once Juju was not opposite literally the best receiver in football at the time he wasn't the same guy. He has been a low end #2 ever since. Take the point about Kelce vs Diggs, don't deny Kelce is destined for the HoF.... but the criteria for HoF at tight end and HoF at receiver isn't the same, is it? There are not many tight ends in history who can justifiably say the were their team's #1. Kelce is, so his place in the pantheon of the greats is assured. Diggs has just had the best 3 year run of a receiver on a new team in the history of the NFL... but because of the way the HoF works that isn't going to make him a HoFer, nor should it. But in terms of weapons on the field now they are both elite. In terms of impact on the history of the game, sure Kelce has an advantage. 

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have said my preference after next season if we have another disappointing playoff exit is to hire Ben Johnson as OC. One year with Detroit and he designed one of the most creative offenses I've ever seen, and got Jared Goff to perform at the best level of his career. My biggest fear is that we give McDermott too many chances and Ben Johnson goes onto become the next Kyle Shanahan with another franchise.

 

You mean as HC, not OC. But I agree Johnson, if he can back it up in 2023 is going to be the #1 Head Coaching candidate in football next year. If the Bills do decide to move on he is the guy I'd want. I do need to see him back it up first though. Think he was VERY wise not to jump this year and to go back to Detroit. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

 

So you admit that's homer behavior.  Glad we agree.  And I will call it out since it's unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity.  They like Josh Allen.  Great, so do I.  When you start making BS statements to teardown an opponent that aren't based in reality, that's when I have an issue.

 

 

 

 

Some are homers but most are being objective and simply disagree with you.

 

And it's your opinion that what we're saying is "unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity".  To me the idea that Allen & Mahomes should be compared as if they're on a level playing field is ludicrous on its face.

 

And what have I said that you consider "BS"? 

 

BTW I find it really odd that you would have an issue with anyone on 2BD believing that Allen is every bit as good as Mahomes.  Disagree, fine, but have an issue? Please. This is after all a Buffalo Bills message board.

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

You mean as HC, not OC. But I agree Johnson, if he can back it up in 2023 is going to be the #1 Head Coaching candidate in football next year. If the Bills do decide to move on he is the guy I'd want. I do need to see him back it up first though. Think he was VERY wise not to jump this year and to go back to Detroit. 

 

Yeah I edited it right after I posted it.

 

I think we would be the best possible candidate for Ben Johnson too. Come start your head coaching career with Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs. I know we have gone back and forth on McDermott's future here, but I will say Ben Johnson being available next year colors that conversation for me. I agree with you that trading picks for Sean Payton or hiring Jim Harbaugh is not a good enough outcome to justify moving on from McDermott. But if you have a chance to get the brightest young offensive mind in the NFL? Then yes I think potentially moving on a little too early is worth the swing.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I edited it right after I posted it.

 

I think we would be the best possible candidate for Ben Johnson too. Come start your head coaching career with Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs. I know we have gone back and forth on McDermott's future here, but I will say Ben Johnson being available next year colors that conversation for me. I agree with you that trading picks for Sean Payton or hiring Jim Harbaugh is not a good enough outcome to justify moving on from McDermott. But if you have a chance to get the brightest young offensive mind in the NFL? Then yes I think potentially moving on a little too early is worth the swing.

 

I will want to see how next season goes but in principle I agree with you. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

124 TDs for Mahomes

129 TDs for Allen

 

50 INTs and fumbles for Mahomes

69 INTs and fumbles for Allen

 

So Josh had 5 more TDs and 19 more INTs and fumbles over that span.

Fumbles are not the same as INT's unless they're LOST.  Throwing that number out is misleading.

 

 

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

How about that

Notice how some of these folks equate a fumble that was NOT lost to an INT?  That's simply insane and shows how they bastardize stats to prove a point.

 

 

[Billz4ever]

16 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Some are homers but most are being objective and simply disagree with you.

 

And it's your opinion that what we're saying is "unreasonable and clearly lacks objectivity".  To me the idea that Allen & Mahomes should be compared as if they're on a level playing field is ludicrous on its face.

 

And what have I said that you consider "BS"? 

 

BTW I find it really odd that you would have an issue with anyone on 2BD believing that Allen is every bit as good as Mahomes.  Disagree, fine, but have an issue? Please. This is after all a Buffalo Bills message board.

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me what QB comparison you can make where both QBs are on a perfectly level playing field.  It doesn't happen.

 

What you're trying to do is simply boil it down to an argument that says if QB A had what QB B has, QB A would prove he's better.

 

Easy argument to make because it's impossible to prove since they can't swap teams.  Maybe Allen gets a better line and some more weapons and then demonstrates he is better than Mahomes.  But that's the whole point...he has to first prove it on the field.  You can't just make the claim he would be and it's instantly gospel truth.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Billz4ever

[BillsFan130]

40 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Totally agree with the use of the slot, but I don't think it's Crowder they missed as much.  He only had 3 catches on the season when he went down.

 

I think they missed Beasley more than anything.  Say what you want about him and him getting older, but Josh trusted him and was always the guy that could get open and get Josh out of a jam. 

 

That aspect of our offense from the slot all but completely disappeared this year.

Ya that’s a fair point and I definitely agree with you in regards to missing Beasley

[FireChans]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have said my preference after next season if we have another disappointing playoff exit is to hire Ben Johnson as head coach. One year with Detroit and he designed one of the most creative offenses I've ever seen, and got Jared Goff to perform at the best level of his career. My biggest fear is that we give McDermott too many chances and Ben Johnson goes on to become the next Kyle Shanahan with another franchise.

 

I think if the defense does play poorly in another early exit next year, I could see the end of the McD era. Which is a shame because he is a good guy and deserves all the credit for turning the team around from a cesspool by NFL standards.

 

Hope we win the SB for him tbh. But would love BJ.

[HappyDays]

58 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

But what each QB has to work with can be debated with any QB to QB comparison in the league. In the end, all we can go by is what they do on the field.

 

I'm not comparing us to other teams. I'm comparing us to other contenders. Of the real Super Bowl contenders, factoring in skill positions, OL, and coaching, Allen clearly had less to work with than the other QBs. If our defense actually played to the level of its heavy investments then it may have worked out just as well, but since they consistently fall apart in the playoffs this means Allen was playing with less from his supporting cast and coaching, and also had no defense capable of slowing down top offenses. Mahomes, Burrow, and Hurts all got more from their offense AND from their defense once the playoffs started.

 

We're past the point of debating MVP accolades. I don't care about that. I care about the Bills winning a Super Bowl. For that to happen they need to get Allen the kind of help that his peers on other contenders get. It's too late to get him better coaching so we'll just have to hope Dorsey figures it out next year. As far as skill positions and OL that needs to be Beane's primary focus this offseason.

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm not comparing us to other teams. I'm comparing us to other contenders. Of the real Super Bowl contenders, factoring in skill positions, OL, and coaching, Allen clearly had less to work with than the other QBs. If our defense actually played to the level of its heavy investments then it may have worked out just as well, but since they consistently fall apart in the playoffs this means Allen was playing with less from his supporting cast and coaching, and also had no defense capable of slowing down top offenses. Mahomes, Burrow, and Hurts all got more from their offense AND from their defense once the playoffs started.

 

We're past the point of debating MVP accolades. I don't care about that. I care about the Bills winning a Super Bowl. For that to happen they need to get Allen the kind of help that his peers on other contenders get. It's too late to get him better coaching so we'll just have to hope Dorsey figures it out next year. As far as skill positions and OL that needs to be Beane's primary focus this offseason.

I agree with that, but that's getting a little off track with what the original debate was.

 

If you want to tell me KC has better coaching and OL than the Bills, you're not going to get any argument from me there.  

 

I disagreed with the contention that KC's skill positions are also a lot better than the Bills, which I see as a massive stretch and isn't really supported by the data. 

[Billl]

21 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Fumbles are not the same as INT's unless they're LOST.  Throwing that number out is misleading.

 

 

Notice how some of these folks equate a fumble that was NOT lost to an INT?  That's simply insane and shows how they bastardize stats to prove a point.

 

 

Josh led the NFL in interceptions thrown.  He also led the NFL in fumbles.  He also led the NFL in total turnovers.