2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Juju, MVS, Toney, Moore, Kelce, McKinnon, Pacheco>>>> Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir, Knox, Singletary, Cook

 

Do you honestly disagree with that?

 

I think their backs are slightly better (though neither are stars). 

 

Kelce, Juju, MVS, Toney, Moore

Diggs, Knox, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir

 

That is where I think it is pretty even. 

[GunnerBill]

54 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

If you were to take the careers of Juju & MVS vs Knox & Davis, this comparison becomes ridiculous.

 

Production wise MVS >>> Knox and Juju >>> Davis in their NFL careers.

 

And it's not very close.

 

Really? Davis and Knox have both been in the league less time than MVS and both have more touchdowns. His catch percentage is even worse than Gabe's. He is the definition of a JAG. 

 

If I was taking those 4 in order I'd go: #1 Juju; #2 Knox; #3 Davis; #4 MVS. 

 

You have proven my point that people overrate the Chiefs weapons. Juju is a decent player but no more than that. His best year came opposite the best receiver in football at the time and he has never got close to that production again. MVS is a deep threat that struggles catching the ball and rarely scores touchdowns. 

[Dr. Who]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Really? Davis and Knox have both been in the league less time than MVS and both have more touchdowns. His catch percentage is even worse than Gabe's. He is the definition of a JAG. 

 

If I was taking those 4 in order I'd go: #1 Juju; #2 Knox; #3 Davis; #4 MVS. 

 

You have proven my point that people overrate the Chiefs weapons. Juju is a decent player but no more than that. His best year came opposite the best receiver in football at the time and he has never got close to that production again. MVS is a deep threat that struggles catching the ball and rarely scores touchdowns. 

I think you are correct for the most part, but Kelce is making a case for the best TE to ever play the game. The real difference is that Mahomes has Andy Reid (essentially) calling the plays and the Chiefs made a commitment to upgrading the oline and now have one of the best in the league.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I think you are correct for the most part, but Kelce is making a case for the best TE to ever play the game. The real difference is that Mahomes has Andy Reid (essentially) calling the plays and the Chiefs made a commitment to upgrading the oline and now have one of the best in the league.

 

Exactly. I agree on Kelce too. The difference is they have Reid, a much better oline (than Buf and Cincy) and then Mahomes has played at an MVP level

[Billz4ever]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Exactly. I agree on Kelce too. The difference is they have Reid, a much better oline (than Buf and Cincy) and then Mahomes has played at an MVP level

That's what I don't get here...what even is the argument being made by these folks?  Mahomes shouldn't be MVP because he has Andy, Kelce, and a better O-Line?

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

4 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

That's what I don't even get here...what even is the argument being made by these folks?  Mahomes shouldn't be MVP because he has Andy, Kelce, and a better O-Line?

 

 

Well it can’t possibly be that Mahomes is simply the best player in the NFL by a decent margin.  There must be some reason he just won 48/50 MVP votes that’s unrelated to his play.

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

Well it can’t possibly be that Mahomes is simply the best player in the NFL by a decent margin.  There must be some reason he just won 48/50 MVP votes that’s unrelated to his play.

 

Yeah, I think it's all one big conspiracy just to piss off overly sensitive Bills fans who can't understand why Allen didn't win. 😂

[prissythecat]

I'm curious about who put in 1 vote for Allen.   A relative of transplantbillsfan?  😛

[CincyBillsFan]

30 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

That's what I don't get here...what even is the argument being made by these folks?  Mahomes shouldn't be MVP because he has Andy, Kelce, and a better O-Line?

 

 

You have been misrepresenting the argument that most Bills fans have been making here.  I think it's fair to say that a lot of Bills fans agree that Mahomes deserved the MVP THIS SEASON over Allen.  At least that's my opinion. 

 

What annoys many of us is the assertion by you and others that Mahomes is a much better QB then Allen. This is an entirely different position then saying he deserved the 2022 MVP over Allen.  When posters like you jump on here and accuse us of "homerism" because we may not believe Mahomes is better then Allen it rankles because the argument over who wins the 2022 MVP is not the same argument as to who is the better QB.

 

And it's not "making excuses" to point out the very different circumstances Allen & Mahomes came into the league under and the continued disparity between the two in offensive coaching & surrounding talent.  Those are easily observable FACTS that are hard to dispute. The reality is that Mahomes has benefited mightily by playing for a franchise that values offense over defense.  In contrast Allen has had to rise above a Bills organization that favors defense over offense.

 

From what my eyes tell me Allen is every bit as good a QB as Mahomes. The things you cite to declare Mahomes superior have more to do with the team element of football then differences in individual skills between these two.  The FACT is that Mahomes plays on the superior team that has embraced the best way to win in the playoffs - focus on the offense without reservations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[C.Biscuit97]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

If you were to take the careers of Juju & MVS vs Knox & Davis, this comparison becomes ridiculous.

 

Production wise MVS >>> Knox and Juju >>> Davis in their NFL careers.

 

And it's not very close.

What the hell is this crazy MVS love? Why are you comparing a TE to a wr?Dude played with Rodgers and just had the best season of his career with Mahomes. His career average season yards is 568 (538 before this year, again with a multi mvp qb). Gabe Davis averages 661 a year.  

Allen has become a better player than I could have ever imagine. We definitely need to upgrade the weapons around him, which will become tougher with the money he is going to make. The chiefs faced this problem, traded away a top 5 and HOF receiver and scumbag, and he got better. Kelce is one of the best tes ever but stop pretending like that isn’t a pedestrian receiving core besides him. Mahomes is on the path to being the best qb in nfl history. Stop nitpicking. 

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think their backs are slightly better (though neither are stars). 

 

Kelce, Juju, MVS, Toney, Moore

Diggs, Knox, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir

 

That is where I think it is pretty even. 

 

Let's just look at the top 3 in targets.

 

Right off the bat, it pops out that McKinnon is the #3 in targets and #4 in receiving yards.  So that's something the Bills don't have - significant contributions from a pass-catching back.  We can debate why that is, but it Is.

 

OK, leave him out - do you really want to construct an argument that Kelce, Juju SS, and MVS ~= Diggs, Davis, Knox?

 

I'll hang up and listen

 

37 minutes ago, prissythecat said:

I'm curious about who put in 1 vote for Allen.   A relative of transplantbillsfan?  😛

 

Well, someone put in 1 vote for Damar Hamlin's EMS team as I understand it so

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

9 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Juju, MVS, Toney, Moore, Kelce, McKinnon, Pacheco>>>> Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir, Knox, Singletary, Cook

 

Do you honestly disagree with that?

 

Other than Kelce the Chiefs have a bunch of unproven JAGs. JuJu is not some great WR. His best days are behind him. He's more or a one year wonder. JuJu is the only guy outside of Kelce you could try and make an argument that they are actually above JAG level but I wouldn't buy that argument. Everyone else is a wash. They look better on the Chiefs only because they play in the Andy Ried system and have a QB that can spread the ball around better than Allen. 

 

Kelce and Diggs are both great. But I would probably argue Kelce is greater than Diggs. In my eyes, that is your difference. It's not a massive difference but it does push the needle to the Chiefs. Bigger difference would be o-line and unfortunately, QB until Allen learns to be a true distributor. 

[Billz4ever]

37 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You have been misrepresenting the argument that most Bills fans have been making here.  I think it's fair to say that a lot of Bills fans agree that Mahomes deserved the MVP THIS SEASON over Allen.  At least that's my opinion. 

 

What annoys many of us is the assertion by you and others that Mahomes is a much better QB then Allen. This is an entirely different position then saying he deserved the 2022 MVP over Allen.  When posters like you jump on here and accuse us of "homerism" because we may not believe Mahomes is better then Allen it rankles because the argument over who wins the 2022 MVP is not the same argument as to who is the better QB.

 

And it's not "making excuses" to point out the very different circumstances Allen & Mahomes came into the league under and the continued disparity between the two in offensive coaching & surrounding talent.  Those are easily observable FACTS that are hard to dispute. The reality is that Mahomes has benefited mightily by playing for a franchise that values offense over defense.  In contrast Allen has had to rise above a Bills organization that favors defense over offense.

 

From what my eyes tell me Allen is every bit as good a QB as Mahomes. The things you cite to declare Mahomes superior have more to do with the team element of football then differences in individual skills between these two.  The FACT is that Mahomes plays on the superior team that has embraced the best way to win in the playoffs - focus on the offense without reservations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, what the posters have consistently done here is to try and diminish and downplay Mahomes' talent and push the idea Mahomes is only as good as he is because of the system and his supporting cast.

 

It's the same argument Bills fans used for a decade+ with Brady.  It's now been regurgitated and amplified because the Bills have a good QB of their own, so there's direct competition.  They've repeatedly tried to make the KC WR corps out to be these below the radar pro bowlers, which is utterly ridiculous and not supported by any stats whatsoever.  KC's WRs are marginally better than the Bills receivers at best.  Again, all done with the goal of diminishing Mahomes.

 

If you are in this camp, yes, I will call you a homer because people who engage in such practices clearly lack any objectivity.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Billz4ever

[C.Biscuit97]

21 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Let's just look at the top 3 in targets.

 

Right off the bat, it pops out that McKinnon is the #3 in targets and #4 in receiving yards.  So that's something the Bills don't have - significant contributions from a pass-catching back.  We can debate why that is, but it Is.

 

OK, leave him out - do you really want to construct an argument that Kelce, Juju SS, and MVS ~= Diggs, Davis, Knox?

 

I'll hang up and listen

 

 

Well, someone put in 1 vote for Damar Hamlin's EMS team as I understand it so

Juju, MVS are bottom 5 top 2 receivers of any team in the league. Why is so hard to give mahomes credit for some Bills fans? Reid had Alex Smith go a season without throwing a td pass to a receiver now has a 2 time mvp qb. Maybe mahomes is really, really, really, really good.

 

nah, the dangerous skill sets of Juju and his 4.8 40 time; MVS and his monster 500 yard season with Aaron Rodgers; McKinnon who literally has done nothing for 3 years; and a 7th round rb are the real MVPs! 
 

P.S. the last 5 years of Kelce’s career have been the best of his career. I wonder what changed? 🤔 must be the threat of Hardman and CHE!

19 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

No, what the posters have consistently done here is to try and diminish and downplay Mahomes' talent and push the idea Mahomes is only as good as he is because of the system and his supporting cast.

 

It's the same argument Bills fans used for a decade+ with Brady.  It's now been regurgitated and amplified because the Bills have a good QB of their own, so there's direct competition.  They've repeatedly tried to make the KC WR corps out to be these below the radar pro bowlers, which is utterly ridiculous and not supported by any stats whatsoever.  KC's WRs are marginally better than the Bills receivers at best.  Again, all done with the goal of diminishing Mahomes.

 

If you are in this camp, yes, I will call you a homer because people who engage in such practices clearly lack any objectivity.

Well said. It’s like you have to tear down another player to prop your guy up. I love watching awesome qbs. The fact that Allen even relativity the same conversation as Mahomes is a tribute to him and the Bills. It legit blows my mind how good he has become. So happy because I had so many doubts.

 

but take off the homer glasses and just realize Mahomes is in a different place than any other qb. If their receiving core was with the Texans, we would laugh at how terrible they are. Give the man with annoying family and a Kermit the frog voice credit. Allen was so close last year. And this year there were other factors. But you have to be the biggest homer to not see Mahomes separate himself from other qb.

 

I also am now convinced he’s going to throw 4 ints in a blowout eagles win today 😂 

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Juju, MVS are bottom 5 top 2 receivers of any team in the league. Why is so hard to give mahomes credit for some Bills fans? Reid had Alex Smith go a season without throwing a td pass to a receiver now has a 2 time mvp qb. Maybe mahomes is really, really, really, really good.

 

nah, the dangerous skill sets of Juju and his 4.8 40 time; MVS and his monster 500 yard season with Aaron Rodgers; McKinnon who literally has done nothing for 3 years; and a 7th round rb are the real MVPs! 
 

P.S. the last 5 years of Kelce’s career have been the best of his career. I wonder what changed? 🤔 must be the threat of Hardman and CHE!

Well said. It’s like you have to tear down another player to prop your guy up. I love watching awesome qbs. The fact that Allen even relativity the same conversation as Mahomes is a tribute to him and the Bills. It legit blows my mind how good he has become. So happy because I had so many doubts.

 

but take off the homer glasses and just realize Mahomes is in a different place than any other qb. If their receiving core was with the Texans, we would laugh at how terrible they are. Give the man with annoying family and a Kermit the frog voice credit. Allen was so close last year. And this year there were other factors. But you have to be the biggest homer to not see Mahomes separate himself from other qb.

 

I also am now convinced he’s going to throw 4 ints in a blowout eagles win today 😂 

Yep, and if Beane can get Josh some more weapons and some better protection, Josh will have the opportunity to maybe overtake Mahomes.  But that's the key...he actually has to do it.  

 

You can't simply say if Josh had Mahomes' coach and line he'd be just as good.  That's pure speculation based on hypotheticals.  Josh would still have to prove it.  

 

Do I hope he does?  Dang skippy because as Allen goes, obviously so do the Bills.

[Billl]

56 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Let's just look at the top 3 in targets.

 

Right off the bat, it pops out that McKinnon is the #3 in targets and #4 in receiving yards.  So that's something the Bills don't have - significant contributions from a pass-catching back.  We can debate why that is, but it Is.

 

OK, leave him out - do you really want to construct an argument that Kelce, Juju SS, and MVS ~= Diggs, Davis, Knox?

 

I'll hang up and listen

So we’ve officially hit the ‘Mahomes looks better than Allen because Mahomes has Jerrick McKinnon’ level of cope.  Mahomes has won two MVPs and made three SuperBowls with Damien Williams, Darrel Williams, Clyde Edwards-Elaire, Jerrick McKinnon, and Isaiah Pacheco as his RBs.  He’s the best QB in the game, and it’s not really close.  Josh may get there some day, but right now he’s the consensus second or third best.  Now that his salary is going way up in 2023, we’re going to see what he can do when he has less to work with over the next few years as the salary cap position moves the team from buyers to sellers.

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

So we’ve officially hit the ‘Mahomes looks better than Allen because Mahomes has Jerrick McKinnon’ level of cope.  Mahomes has won two MVPs and made three SuperBowls with Damien Williams, Darrel Williams, Clyde Edwards-Elaire, Jerrick McKinnon, and Isaiah Pacheco as his RBs.  He’s the best QB in the game, and it’s not really close.  Josh may get there some day, but right now he’s the consensus second or third best.  Now that his salary is going way up in 2023, we’re going to see what he can do when he has less to work with over the next few years as the salary cap position moves the team from buyers to sellers.

The good news is that if Josh gets help on the O-line and another weapon at WR, he'll actually have more to work with than he has in the past.

 

The FO has consistently dumped resources into the defense and tried to do the offense on the cheap and they got away with it, but it was really just a matter of Allen's talent masking the underlying problems.  The Bills don't have to make big splashes in FA to make Josh's life a lot easier.   Have a good draft that addresses the issues and make a few smaller key FA signings and things look much better right away.

[GunnerBill]

35 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Let's just look at the top 3 in targets.

 

Right off the bat, it pops out that McKinnon is the #3 in targets and #4 in receiving yards.  So that's something the Bills don't have - significant contributions from a pass-catching back.  We can debate why that is, but it Is.

 

OK, leave him out - do you really want to construct an argument that Kelce, Juju SS, and MVS ~= Diggs, Davis, Knox?

 

I'll hang up and listen

 

Okay so on receiving backs, I agree. But I don't think that is because the Bills don't have the skillset - hell they traded a 5th round pick away for Nyheim Hines mid season. He only had 53 receiving yards in 9 games with the Bills. But in the previous four years of his career he averages 370 receiving yards per season. McKinnon has been in the league 8 years, but only played for 6 because of injuries. And prior to this year averaged 224 yards per season. They are basically neck and neck yards per clip reception and Hines averages over 4 yards per game more for his career. The Chiefs signed McKinnon as a low end free agent. It isn't like they went and traded for this established elite pass catching back as a weapon for Mahomes. Mahomes and Reid took a career complimentary pass catching back and turned him into a weapon. The Bills are yet to do that with Hines, although, no camp came in mid-season etc I accept there are reasons. But the argument here is about talent not usage. 

 

As for the top 3s... I have posted this before but seeing as it is you... I'll repeat (and I can't remember where my previous one is to link) the production in 2022 is very similar for the two "top 3s":

 

Bills (Diggs, Davis, Knox) accounted for 317 targets; 199 receptions; 2,782 yards and 24 touchdowns at 63% completion and 14 yards per catch.

Chiefs (Kelce, Juju, MVS) accounted for 334 targets; 230 receptions; 2,958 yards and 17 touchdowns at 69% completion and 12.9 yards per catch.

 

And remember those Bills numbers are for sixteen games, not 17. The Chiefs guys catch it more often, the Bills guys get higher value for their catches. Which at least in part can be explained by Josh being 3rd in intended air yards per pass attempt in 2022 at 9.2 and Mahomes being 23rd at 7.2. As such you can also (and I think it is fair) say Allen is responsible for more of those yards given the Bills receivers do not produce after the catch, but that has been a constant theme since Allen arrived and the Bills installed the E-P. So again you will have a tough time selling me that the problem there is primarily talent. 

 

I am not arguing by the way that the Bills offensive weaponry is great. Far from it. I was advocating for more receiver help all spring last year. I thought they should have added another option in FA, I thought they should have drafted one sooner, I just didn't think they had done enough. My argument is that the Chiefs weapons are not much different. If you want to argue Kelce > Diggs and Juju > Gabe fine, but they are the same tiers of player. Kelce and Diggs are elite, Juju and Gabe are lower end #2s who's be great #3s. I think Knox is a tier above MVS frankly and I am sick of making the point that the Bills underused Dawson Knox this year. He caught 73% of his balls and had the third highest separation rate among qualifying players per Next Gen stats. 

 

I just think the biggest differences are Reid and Mahomes and the offensive line. Different in previous years. Mahomes came into the league with two elite weapons, no question. But this year he has done more with less at the receiver position compared to his career thus far. Josh has been doing that most of the way since he was drafted, I grant you that. But I'm talking about the here and now. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

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[Scott7975]

I remember when the talk in this thread was Allen cant win it because we are going to the SB and the SB Qbs almost never win MVP in the same year. Mahomes proved that theory wrong.

 

My 2 cents is this... I think Allen has to work harder than Mahomes to get the same stats.  Specifically I think KC's oline is superior and I think their offensive coaching and game plans are superior. Their recievers are probably about on par as ours in JAGS.  I think they are put in better positions to succeed than ours are. As much as I love Diggs, I think Kelce is a better weapon than Diggs but thats still marginal.  RBs I think are about equal talent wise but I think do a better job because coaching and QB utilize them better than we do.  I do think that their guys do a better job catching contested or not perfect passes than our guys do but that may just be some bias in there, I don't know.

 

That said, I think Mahomes deserved it over Allen this year. The difference for me is something Mahomes had to learn last year... sometimes take whats given.  Allen had to do that more this year.  I dont know if thats because of Dorsey or Allen.  Its probably both but Allen and Dorsey need to learn from that this off season and be better next year.

 

This staff also needs to do a better job surrounding Allen with offensive talent and not spend so many top end resources on defense.  I specifically hope for some O line moves that work out.  Allen needs better in front of him.  If he gets that and learns from this past season then I think he will be even better next year.  Perhaps better than we have ever seen him.

 

Its funny.  We had a year of Allen air ball that wasnt so good.  Then we had a year of Allen being killer on short to intermediate stuff. This year we had Allen air ball but he did a good job of it.  Maybe next year we have a year where he puts it all together and can do both at any time and put the ball anywhere on the field.  If he does that he is unstoppable.

 

Allen is elite.  He is a top QB in this league and always will be.  He is fully capable of taking this team to a Super Bowl and winning it.  He and this team just need to put it all together and do it.