2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

But that was the opposite of the Patriots' model. Still trying to see the connection.

 

I wasn't making a connection between New England and Indy. I was making a connection between Buffalo and Pittsbugh and saying in terms of build, in terms of organisational principles and even to an extent in terms of Quarterback - Ben and Josh have in common the "no, no, no don't do tha...... Touchdown!!" element of hero ball to them.

 

The Steelers lost to the Pats a couple of times in the playoffs... but they were the second most successful AFC team of that era and won two rings. I kinda think that might be the Bills lot. 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

First of all, I figured the emoticon would make you realize that what I was saying was tongue in cheek. Really wasn't being totally serious there... not totally.

 

But Allen’s never had 2 sure-fire 1st ballot HOF weapons to throw to along with a well-established mad-scientist offensive play caller and QB guru. And if you want to argue that Daboll was just that at the end of his tenure in WNY, we could point to Allen's historic playoff games last year only to be botched by coaching at the end of the game.

Mahomes is in the SB this year with just Kelce, so that theory is kinda busted.

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Both the Bills and Chiefs rosters would be middling teams without their superstar QBs. But what’s funny to me is that I hear Allen would be going to his 3rd SB (at least) and Mahomes wouldn’t have sniffed one if you simply switched the QBs. There’s a blind, almost irrational loyalty to Allen. I love my QB, but at the same time can admit when another guy is simply better. Not all Bills fans have the capacity to grasp this.

 

You do understand the very different situations these players walked into, right? 

 

The Chiefs won double digit games and went to the playoffs the 2 years before they drafted Mahomes and then again in his rookie year when he sat the whole season and had the benefit of being groomed under Andy Reid and watching a pro like Alex Smith in front of him. And they had Hill and Kelce from the start for Mahomes.

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Get the ball out faster. Process faster. Checkdown or grounding at receivers feet better than UCL arm hit.

 

Holy crap... you were being serious

[Dr.Sack]

3 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Holy crap... you were being serious

Yes is it a surprise the league leader in fumbles 2018-2022 needs to process the field faster and get the ball out? 

[transplantbillsfan]

24 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Mahomes is in the SB this year with just Kelce, so that theory is kinda busted.

 

It's not just Kelce, though.

 

Andy Reid is still calling the plays and they have more weapons now than before.

 

They swapped Hill out for 2 young but established veteran WRs, a young 1st round WR they traded for, a 2nd round rookie WR, and McKinnon and Pacheco at RB.

[Billz4ever]

58 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

So what?  Does that mean we have to give Josh a handicap when comparing the success between the two?  The only legitimate comparison you can use is what they do on the field.  Everything else is just excuses.

 

You can literally use that argument when comparing any QBs.  Some have more weapons, a better OL, or better coaching than others do and just like with Josh, it's not a valid argument #1 because you can't swap positions and #2 those things are almost never equal no matter who you're comparing.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Billl]

19 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You do understand the very different situations these players walked into, right? 

 

The Chiefs won double digit games and went to the playoffs the 2 years before they drafted Mahomes and then again in his rookie year when he sat the whole season and had the benefit of being groomed under Andy Reid and watching a pro like Alex Smith in front of him. And they had Hill and Kelce from the start for Mahomes.

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

5 years into Josh’s career, he just threw 3 INTs and had 3 fumbles in 2 playoff games, and you’re still talking about how Mahomes sat most of the 2017 season?  You’re just being ridiculous.  If you want to figure out who the best QB is, find the guy who had 33 interceptions and fumbles in 18 games this season.  It ain’t him.  

 

Josh is a great player who will likely find himself in the HOF some day.  What’s the point of trying to convince people that he’s better than the guy who just got 48x as many MVP votes as he did?  Allen’s supporting cast had $19,000,000 million more dollars in salary, and they put up 10 points in an elimination game.  If you want to debate Josh, compare him to Burrow.  That’s the better discussion.

[Billz4ever]

22 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It's not just Kelce, though.

 

Andy Reid is still calling the plays and they have more weapons now than before.

 

They swapped Hill out for 2 young but established veteran WRs, a young 1st round WR they traded for, a 2nd round rookie WR, and McKinnon and Pacheco at RB.

Oh, so we're back to the Brady argument where he's only as good as he is because of the "system".  Heard that for a decade+ from Bills fans now we've resurrected it again to try and label Mahomes the same way.  It's simply a coping mechanism to try and downplay one guy and justify why our guy hasn't been able to accomplish the same.

 

Only took Brady going to another team, throwing for 5300 yards 43 TDs and winning another ring to finally put that nonsense to bed.

 

And let's stop trying to inflate the KC WR corp and Pacheco and turning them into probowlers.

 

Pacheco had 830 yards and a 4.9 ypc.

 

Cook had over 500 yards on half the carries Pacheco had with a 5.7 avg splitting time with motor and who saw very little playing time the first part of the season.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Doc]

42 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

You do understand the very different situations these players walked into, right? 

 

The Chiefs won double digit games and went to the playoffs the 2 years before they drafted Mahomes and then again in his rookie year when he sat the whole season and had the benefit of being groomed under Andy Reid and watching a pro like Alex Smith in front of him. And they had Hill and Kelce from the start for Mahomes.

 

No one is saying Mahomes would suck outside of KC, but coaching, system, and surrounding personnel matter and Allen has always been far behind Mahomes with respect to those things.

 

Yup.  Same excellent OC (Reid) and an all-world TE who is open on every play every season and a great WR in Hill until this season.  And has had a better OL in front of him throughout and the past 2 years especially.  I also wish the Bills had Spagnuolo as DC.

[GoBills808]

😂😂Chiefs fans are so sensitive about Allen

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It's not just Kelce, though.

 

Andy Reid is still calling the plays and they have more weapons now than before.

 

They swapped Hill out for 2 young but established veteran WRs, a young 1st round WR they traded for, a 2nd round rookie WR, and McKinnon and Pacheco at RB.

 

Their pass game weapons are meh this year aside from Kelce. Their oline is a lot better than ours. Their weapons are not. Juju and MVs are just guys.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Their pass game weapons are meh this year aside from Kelce. Their oline is a lot better than ours. Their weapons are not. Juju and MVs are just guys.

 

Outside of obviously Diggs, can you say the Bills' pass game weapons this year were any better?

[GunnerBill]

52 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Outside of obviously Diggs, can you say the Bills' pass game weapons this year were any better?

 

No. I just don't see a lot between them, that was my point. They both have 1 elite guy and then some slightly above average to average. Juju, MVS, Knox, Davis.... it isn't some massive talent difference. 

 

On the offensive line I take the point. I think the Chiefs are slightly (though not massively) better at running back. They just get more out of their backs because they actually run block. Weapons? I think it is pretty much a wash.

 

They have Mahomes and Reid. It's mainly just that.

Edited February 11, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

No. I just don't see a lot between them, that was my point. They both have 1 elite guy and then some slightly above average to average. Juju, MVS, Knox, Davis.... it isn't some massive talent difference. 

 

On the offensive line I take the point. I think the Chiefs are slightly (though not massively) better at running back. They just get more out of their backs because they actually run block. Weapons? I think it is pretty much a wash.

 

They have Mahomes and Reid. It's mainly just that.

 

Agree with the bolded.  But a (far) better OC and OL are huge differences.

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Agree with the bolded.  But a (far) better OC and OL are huge differences.

JJSS is a much better wideout than Davis

 

Like I don't even know how that's up for debate

[Doc]

54 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

JJSS is a much better wideout than Davis

 

Like I don't even know how that's up for debate

 

I can't disagree.  Neither are #1 receivers but JJSS did put up 1,426 yards as a #2 WR and Kelce is the Chefs' #1 receiver.

[transplantbillsfan]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Their pass game weapons are meh this year aside from Kelce. Their oline is a lot better than ours. Their weapons are not. Juju and MVs are just guys.

 

Juju, MVS, Toney, Moore, Kelce, McKinnon, Pacheco>>>> Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir, Knox, Singletary, Cook

 

Do you honestly disagree with that?

Edited February 12, 2023 by transplantbillsfan

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. I just don't see a lot between them, that was my point. They both have 1 elite guy and then some slightly above average to average. Juju, MVS, Knox, Davis.... it isn't some massive talent difference. 

 

If you were to take the careers of Juju & MVS vs Knox & Davis, this comparison becomes ridiculous.

 

Production wise MVS >>> Knox and Juju >>> Davis in their NFL careers.

 

And it's not very close.

[starrymessenger]

In a team sport, even individual honours are inevitably partly determined by contributions other players are able to make (or not make). So I don't have a problem with PM being MVP. He's absolutely a worthy winner. But in comparison to Allen to me he does benefit from having a better O-line, better skill players schooled in an offensive system that has a purpose to it and, most importantly, unlike Josh, Mahomes has top shelf coaches, Reid and Bieniemy.