Ed Oliver injury

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Ok, let me ask you a question then.  Why do you think Moss is a better pass receiver?  Motor had 40 receptions last year on 50 targets for an 80% catch rate.  Moss had a 71% catch rate last year on his 23 receptions.....  

 

I think a lot of the disconnect is that I'm not much of a stat guy; there are very few instances where I find them really useful.

For the RB position when so much of the result is wholly dependent on the 10 other guys around you, stats hold little water for me.

 

I think he's a better pass catcher because he's more instinctual at finding holes in zones, and he's smoother at tracking the ball, securing it and transitioning upfield.

 

11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

As far as the short yardage goes, the stats do not support Moss as being better either.  

Yards per carry:  Devin 4.6, Moss 3.6

Yards before contact/att:  Devin 2.3, Moss 1.5

Yards after contact/att:  Devin 2.3, Moss 2.1

Tackled for loss rate:  Devin 6.4%, Moss 9.4%

 

If I look at that, it tells me that Moss' runs are coming in predictable situations with loaded boxes (i.e later in games with leads where the Bills have indeed used him frequently, as well as obvious short yardage situations where the Bills have also used him frequently) and he's getting contact right near the LOS, while Motor is getting carries in more diverse situations that allow him to get some momentum going forward before he's dealing with tacklers.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

I think a lot of the disconnect is that I'm not much of a stat guy; there are very few instances where I find them really useful.

For the RB position when so much of the result is wholly dependent on the 10 other guys around you, stats hold little water for me.

 

I think he's a better pass catcher because he's more instinctual at finding holes in zones, and he's smoother at tracking the ball, securing it and transitioning upfield.

 

 

If I look at that, it tells me that Moss' runs are coming in predictable situations with loaded boxes (i.e later in games with leads where the Bills have indeed used him frequently, as well as obvious short yardage situations where the Bills have also used him frequently) and he's getting contact right near the LOS, while Motor is getting carries in more diverse situations that allow him to get some momentum going forward before he's dealing with tacklers.

I get where you are coming from, but Moss just isn’t used that way.  He’s getting carries throughout the game, not just short yardage and Devin gets short yardage attempts too.  
 

So while your point makes sense, I don’t think it’s really how Moss is used.  He is used as a committee back, not a goal line back.  It’s not like most his attempts are only short yardage attempts, in fact it’s the opposite.  
 

So for me, he just isn’t better than Devin in any area of the game still.  And that includes statistically and the eye ball test for me.  Devin hits the hole better, faster and more instinctively than Moss, and that is what is most important in short yardage.  And Devin still runs with power and a low center of gravity.  
 

But all good, everyone has their own eyes and opinions, don’t have to see it the same way.  Enjoyed the discussion though

[Scott7975]

Motor is also catching up in pass blocking.  He had a few good blocks last night.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

he came back after halftime.  likely tweaked whatever “minor” issue it was and the boot os just precautionary.  I think he plays next week.  

 

AJE at 3 is blah. 

 

He clearly couldn't move properly when he came back tho. 2 snaps and he took himself back out. 

 

AJE is clearly their 3. He played 36 snaps to Boogie'a 26 and 6 of those 26 for Boogie came at 3T late on in Ed's spot (including the play where he had the INT). Has been pretty consisten through camp and pre-season that after Von and Greg it is AJ next in.

[Richard Noggin]

Feeling compelled to call attention to a player who many are overlooking (often for good reasons): DaQuan Jones #92. He could actually be everything we were told Star was supposed to be. #92 flashed a bunch for me. 

[GunnerBill]

On Moss he is definitely the best pass blocker and pass catcher we have at running back. His natural ability to find the soft spot for the dump off is really valuable. The Bills don't scheme a lot of passes to go to him. He is very much the check down safety valve and he does that better than our other backs (one would hope Cook demonstrates that ability in the longer term).

 

Devin definitely can pass block and he has improved as a pass catcher but he still had 5 drops on the year last year and lacks the natural feel that Moss has as a receiver. 

 

Singletary is the all around better back and once each has ball in hand he last year and again the other night is the most decisive, the faster, and the more elusive runner. But they clearly feel very comfortable with what they get out of Zack Moss. 

 

I do think Moss is a leaden footed runner with all the wiggle of an iron bar and giving him 6 carries compares to 8 for Singletary is not the right distribution in the run game. I'd want to slant those touches further in Devin's direction. But until Cook can prove himself to be a capable blocker and show himself a difference maker in the receiving game then on a pass happy team there is a place for a back with the skillset of Zack Moss.

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

I lean conservative on putting injured players back on the field. All the normal cliches apply - it's a marathon not a sprint, etc. Ankle is one of the worst body parts to risk on a 3T that lives off of his first step. If he is anything but 100% cleared by the medical staff I would be cautious, ramp him up slowly, and sit him until week 3 or 4. It's a long season and we have a ton of DL depth to handle this exact scenario.

 

7 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Feeling compelled to call attention to a player who many are overlooking (often for good reasons): DaQuan Jones #92. He could actually be everything we were told Star was supposed to be. #92 flashed a bunch for me. 

 

Yep and coming from the Titans he will know their tendencies. He is the x-factor in stopping Henry, not Oliver. Although Oliver has become a top tier run stopper in his own right.

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by HappyDays

[Malazan]

Can we get a little less conversation on Singletary/Moss and more about Blackshear in this Ed Oliver Injury thread? 

[Chandler#81]

5 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I don't agree with this at all.

Motor is certainly a better ballcarrier with better vision and more wiggle, but Moss is still a better blocker, a better short yardage back and a better pass receiver. I think all of those things are self-evident.

 

I do agree that they need Singletary more involved and both of their backs need more touches to take some pressure off Allen and minimize the wear and tear that is inevitably going to start accumulating. 

That's just flat out silly; 

Hardly. Over the past 8 games (including Playoffs), Motor has been excellent in short yardage plays. It’s the very reason he’s our top RB and may just earn a second contract. I don’t see Moss surviving his 1st one.

[machine gun kelly]

On 9/9/2022 at 4:31 AM, machine gun kelly said:

For me, I like what Sal stated about how the Bills approach injuries.  He has referenced many times it’s better to air on the side of caution and make sure he’s completely healthy.  If he is not 100%, let him sit for TN.  It’s a long season.  We’ll need him for the Ravens, Chiefs and Packers.

Guys, isn’t it so nice to wake up on a Saturday, we just beat the SB Champs (well actually routed them even with four turnovers from us), we found out our revamped D Line is even better than expected, only one injury, and he even said it’s not that bad.

 

The world is good.  Just sit back, have a fun Saturday with friends and family, have fun watching the games, and the stars are aligned.  The only bad thing from a fandom side is 11 days feels like an eternity.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

He had the most touches, averaged 2.5 yards per carry and 3.5 yards per catch...and he fumbled.  

• Moss:  6 carries for 15 yards (2.5 ypc) and 6 rec for 21 yards (3.5 yards per catch). 
  • NOTE:  8 of his 15 yards came on one carry.  His other 5 carries went for 7 yards and a fumble (1.4 ypc)
• Devin:  8 carries for 48 yards (6 ypc) and 2 rec for 7 yards (7 yards per catch).

Devin was literally two to three times as effective in every facet of the game, and did not turn the ball over. 

 

But that is not even the issue...the issue is our RB's only got 15 carries...when you have only 15 rush attempts, you get your best player most, if not all, those carries.  That is not a heavy workload for a RB.  And Devin is without question the better player.  

 

Devin runs just as hard, if not harder than Moss and with better vision.  Moss has this myth about him that he somehow the more powerful runner and better short yardage back, but it's just not accurate.  There isn't anything Moss does better than Devin...and I don't say that as if Moss is a bum, it's just Devin is flat out better and has been every day these two have been on the roster. 

 

I am not down on Moss, nothing personally against him, but he honestly had the worst game of any player on either side of the ball Thursday night.  If we were a heavy running team, then great, split the carries.  But given the limited amount of carries our RB's typically see, we don't need a committee to handle that workload.  Give the better player the touches.   

 

So, it's not that I am down on Moss, I just don't want to limit our better RB to 8 carries to get a RB that is not better than Devin at anything touches.  And while Cook fumbled too, he at least brings more dynamics to the RB group with his speed and receiving skills.  

I’m with you on the fumbles but it’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison between singletary and moss that game.  Some clever play design opened up a few huge holes for singletary and moss was mostly running into a brick wall all night. 

[Simon]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m with you on the fumbles but it’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison between singletary and moss that game.  Some clever play design opened up a few huge holes for singletary and moss was mostly running into a brick wall all night. 

 

It was almost like Dorsey was using Moss' carries to keep the defense honest and set them up for Singletary's weak side carries to the wide side of the field.

[Doc]

I say sit Ed until he's 100%.

[MiltonWaddams]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

I say sit Ed until he's 100%.

I think you must’ve misunderstood. Ed Oliver’s injury has nothing to do with Ed and everything to do with the running backs.

[B-Man]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

I say sit Ed until he's 100%.

 

 

I say get him back out there as soon as we can.

[Don Otreply]

12 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Did we amputate from the knee yet?

 

asking for a friend

Yes, followed up with a Spleenectomy, and some bionic bits and pieces installed, 👍

[wjag]

10 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if Moss is cut.

He may not be the bell cow, but he is a decent outlet and a solid blocker.  He routinely stands in there and picks up the blitz.  I think there will be games when his battering ram style will work.  

[muppy]

19 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

and there you have it. I think Ed Oliver will be ready to play sooner rather than later. It's amazing what the medical staff can do  with treatments and yes rest Very Important. God speed Ed.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m with you on the fumbles but it’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison between singletary and moss that game.  Some clever play design opened up a few huge holes for singletary and moss was mostly running into a brick wall all night. 

 

Moss has a career 3.9 YPC compared to Devins 4.7 YPC though, it wasn't just one night is the issue.  Devin out performs Moss in every statistical measurement over their careers, and most areas by a significant margin.  

 

Again, not down on Moss, it's just one game, but he is clearly not as good as Devin, so there should never be a reason why Devin only gets 8 Carries while giving up 6 carries to Moss.  

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

On Moss he is definitely the best pass blocker and pass catcher we have at running back. His natural ability to find the soft spot for the dump off is really valuable. The Bills don't scheme a lot of passes to go to him. He is very much the check down safety valve and he does that better than our other backs (one would hope Cook demonstrates that ability in the longer term).

 

Devin definitely can pass block and he has improved as a pass catcher but he still had 5 drops on the year last year and lacks the natural feel that Moss has as a receiver. 

 

Singletary is the all around better back and once each has ball in hand he last year and again the other night is the most decisive, the faster, and the more elusive runner. But they clearly feel very comfortable with what they get out of Zack Moss. 

 

I do think Moss is a leaden footed runner with all the wiggle of an iron bar and giving him 6 carries compares to 8 for Singletary is not the right distribution in the run game. I'd want to slant those touches further in Devin's direction. But until Cook can prove himself to be a capable blocker and show himself a difference maker in the receiving game then on a pass happy team there is a place for a back with the skillset of Zack Moss.

 

 

 

 

Devin had a higher catch rate than Moss last  year by almost 10% better.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Devin had a higher catch rate than Moss last  year by almost 10% better.  

 

I know. But that is a classic case of box score scouting. Moss has better hands and a better feel for spots in the defense.