Ken Dorsey Tuesday presser

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, mushypeaches said:

I think the point that we're all trying to make here, is that we don't need the Josh Allen designed QB sweep on a random 2nd & 4 from our own 28 yard line

 

I'm all for him scrambling on designed pass plays, as well as designed runs in the red zone.  

 

But it's this ridiculous other stuff outside those areas (where he invariably takes bigger hits, it seems) that has to be significantly reduced in our offense

 

I don't need our generational QB carrying the ball, when a highly effective (and replaceable) RB can do the job

 

Josh has been running his entire 4 year career. We have tons of tape of him running.

 

We have tape of him juking defenders out of their shoes (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him leaping over defenders (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him trucking defenders and turning them into rag dolls (multiple times) to be the hitter and avoid hits. And of course we have a ton of tape where he gets down and slides to avoid the hit.

 

I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one.

[Beck Water]

10 minutes ago, muppy said:

this is such a great question. I wonder if such stats exist. I would like to know the answer to this. My guess is that most injuries happen to QB's in a collapsing pocket rather than run. Only because QB's who will take chances to scramble and run are fewer than pocket passers....basically more opportunities for injury to  QB's behind the line of scrimmage   than run. Do you agree? What do you think?

 

Good article here

https://www.fantasypoints.com/nfl/articles/season/2021/mobile-quarterbacks-and-injury-rates

 

However, bear in mind that a QB being hit in the pocket has the protection of "roughing the passer" calls, while a QB outside the pocket is essentially a running back who can be picked up and slammed to the ground and gang-tackled. 

 

Acute injury is not the only concern; cumulative wear-and-tear on the body is what seems to degrade the performance of RBs going into their 30's.

[muppy]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good article here

https://www.fantasypoints.com/nfl/articles/season/2021/mobile-quarterbacks-and-injury-rates

 

However, bear in mind that a QB being hit in the pocket has the protection of "roughing the passer" calls, while a QB outside the pocket is essentially a running back who can be picked up and slammed to the ground and gang-tackled. 

 

Acute injury is not the only concern; cumulative wear-and-tear on the body is what seems to degrade the performance of RBs going into their 30's.

great insight TYVM . 

[Robert Paulson]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Josh has been running his entire 4 year career. We have tons of tape of him running.

 

We have tape of him juking defenders out of their shoes (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him leaping over defenders (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him trucking defenders and turning them into rag dolls (multiple times) to be the hitter and avoid hits. And of course we have a ton of tape where he gets down and slides to avoid the hit.

 

I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one.

I think it was rookie year when he slid and got drilled in the head by a Patriot-no call of course

[Beck Water]

30 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Josh has been running his entire 4 year career. We have tons of tape of him running.

 

We have tape of him juking defenders out of their shoes (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him leaping over defenders (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him trucking defenders and turning them into rag dolls (multiple times) to be the hitter and avoid hits. And of course we have a ton of tape where he gets down and slides to avoid the hit.

 

I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one.

 

C'mon man - either you have a highly selective memory, or you're somehow re-defining "running instance", or That's Sarcasm

 

Jones in Bills-Patriots (concussion) 2019:

https://youtu.be/Jabxf8lGjfo

Joey Bosa in Bills-Chargers 2020:

https://youtu.be/Bc-w3XrK6FE

General video of Josh Allen Hits with a pretty scary late hit by Kiko Alonso in there:

https://youtu.be/4BQVd2c2O28?t=174

Also a foot injury that put Josh in a walking boot vs Tampa.  Couldn't find video of the play

https://thebuffalofanatics.com/josh-allen-foot-injury-diagnosis/

 

If you didn't wince at those, or consider those serious hits, I don't know what to tell you.

You can make an argument about injury risk running vs. standing in the pocket, but let's not pretend that Josh hasn't taken some scary hits.

 

22 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

I think it was rookie year when he slid and got drilled in the head by a Patriot-no call of course

 

He didn't slide.  He was being tackled as a runner, and a 2nd Patriot slammed him helmet to helmet.  It was called as a personal foul penalty, but as always - the opposing defense gives up some yards and a first down, but our QB got knocked out of the game with concussion and was questionable in the protocol the following week.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Beck Water

[Robert Paulson]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

C'mon man - either you have a highly selective memory, or you're somehow re-defining "running instance", or That's Sarcasm

Jones in Bills-Patriots (concussion) 2019:

https://youtu.be/Jabxf8lGjfo

Joey Bosa in Bills-Chargers 2020:

https://youtu.be/Bc-w3XrK6FE

General video of Josh Allen Hits with a pretty scary late hit by Kiko Alonso in there:

https://youtu.be/4BQVd2c2O28?t=174

 

 

 

It was called as a personal foul penalty, but as always - the opposing defense gives up some yards and a first down, but our QB got knocked out of the game for concussion protocol

i was thinking of a different hit when he was basically sitting on his butt before getting drilled in the head-might have been the Texans Zach Cunningham- can't find a video

 

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

Runs at the goal line will probably remain a big part of their offense.  An empty backfield usually creates a number mismatch in the box that is a huge advantage to a running QB.

[Beck Water]

22 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

i was thinking of a different hit when he was basically sitting on his butt before getting drilled in the head-might have been the Texans Zach Cunningham- can't find a video

 

 

Kiko Alonso/Miami was one of them - Alonso dove over him as he slid but then kicked his leg up and clobbered Josh in the face with it.

That got 3 players (two MIA, one Bill) ejected as the entire Bills OL was down there taking offense to it.

 

Pretty sure there have been a handful more

Edited August 24, 2022 by Beck Water

[In Summary]

11 hours ago, DallasMac said:

Didn't seem to give anything away to me.  He'll get more comfortable the more he does it.  I'm betting Josh runs less this year.  Just think they would like to protect him better. 

Josh is a fighter and goes for the extra yards.  Don't mind him running on a scramble but the designed runs will just mean more hits on Allen.

Agree.

 

Hot take:  Daboll was comfortable running Josh to help his (Daboll's) career.  Pegs/Beane want a 10+ year career out of Josh so less running and leaping.  Nothing against Josh exploiting the obvious gaping holes.

[Warcodered]

49 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

I think it was rookie year when he slid and got drilled in the head by a Patriot-no call of course

2nd year 1st Patriots game and he was running and was getting tackled while going for the first down and another Patriot earholed him from the side. Knocked him out of the game that he really had a chance of getting us back in the way he was going.

[CaliBills]

1 hour ago, In Summary said:

Agree.

 

Hot take:  Daboll was comfortable running Josh to help his (Daboll's) career.  Pegs/Beane want a 10+ year career out of Josh so less running and leaping.  Nothing against Josh exploiting the obvious gaping holes.

Agreed - and it was his own fault there was also a lack of run game.

 

Also think Daboll was limited in his ability to install a good run game and blocking scheme, and I believe he kept Bobby Johnson around though the O-line overall was not performing up to standards.  

 

Dorsey will have the advantage of having Kromer as his O-Line coach and I believe it will pay significant dividends 

Edited August 24, 2022 by CaliBills

[DrDawkinstein]

54 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

C'mon man - either you have a highly selective memory, or you're somehow re-defining "running instance", or That's Sarcasm

 

Jones in Bills-Patriots (concussion) 2019:

https://youtu.be/Jabxf8lGjfo

Joey Bosa in Bills-Chargers 2020:

https://youtu.be/Bc-w3XrK6FE

General video of Josh Allen Hits with a pretty scary late hit by Kiko Alonso in there:

https://youtu.be/4BQVd2c2O28?t=174

Also a foot injury that put Josh in a walking boot vs Tampa.  Couldn't find video of the play

https://thebuffalofanatics.com/josh-allen-foot-injury-diagnosis/

 

If you didn't wince at those, or consider those serious hits, I don't know what to tell you.

You can make an argument about injury risk running vs. standing in the pocket, but let's not pretend that Josh hasn't taken some scary hits.

 

 

He didn't slide.  He was being tackled as a runner, and a 2nd Patriot slammed him helmet to helmet.  It was called as a personal foul penalty, but as always - the opposing defense gives up some yards and a first down, but our QB got knocked out of the game with concussion and was questionable in the protocol the following week.

 

 

The Bosa one was one I had in mind. Other than that, I aint worried, and even that was flukey. He takes equally or even more hits in the pocket. Maybe we shouldnt pass as much?

 

Out of all the running Josh has done (a record setting amount, btw), yall were able to dig up 4-5 instances that worried you. Ok. Equally proves my point.

 

Aint worried.

Edited August 24, 2022 by DrDawkinstein

[Rigotz]

11 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Why are ppl against Josh running? 

It was extremely effective,  especially in the Red Zone. 

He's definitely going to keep designed runs. It's a big reason why this O is so deadly 

 

I think we just don't want to see it in non-essential situations.

 

People are worried that what happened to Cam Newton physically could happen to Josh over time if he takes too many hits. It's a fair comparison to be worried about because it's a similar body type and running style.

[BillsShredder83]

11 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Why are ppl against Josh running? 

It was extremely effective,  especially in the Red Zone. 

He's definitely going to keep designed runs. It's a big reason why this O is so deadly 

Sure driving your Ferrari through a corn field is proli fun, but doing it 7 times every Sunday, when there's boulders hidden in the field, might be considered abuse. 

[Logic]

The "how much should Josh run the ball?" debate will obviously be a recurring one throughout his career.

I remain where I've always been on the issue: Josh's running ability is one of the things that make him so lethal, and so difficult to defend. To purposely take it out of his game would be foolish. You don't ask one of the two or three best players in the world at a given skill (in this case, quarterback scrambling) to do it less. To do so is to needlessly neuter your offense.

The issue is not Josh's running. The issue is his unwillingness to slide or run out of bounds a lot of the time. Russell Wilson, for instance, has been a great running QB for years, and has never gotten hurt doing it, nor has he taken a lot of hits that would shorten his career. Why? He slides. He runs out of bounds. He knows when to say "enough is enough, time to get down".

The very things we love about Josh -- his never-say-die attitude and his will to win -- are the same things that will always make it tough for him to not try to gain an extra two yards on every run, which does add hits to his body that, over time, could shorten his career. See: Newton, Cam.

With all of this in mind, the focus should be twofold:

1. Do everything you can to coach/convince Josh to slide or get out of bounds at the end of runs. 
2. Be very selective about when you call quarterback runs. Got a big lead? Don't do it. Playing an inferior opponent that you can likely beat by other means? Don't do it. In between the 20s and moving the ball reasonably well? Don't do it. Crucial 3rd down? Red zone? Game on the line? Playoffs? Green light. Go, go, go.



 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Logic

[BillsShredder83]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

Let Allen play his game. Restrict him to your own detriment. He needs to be out there free and loose. He is the greatest weapon in the NFL. You don't restrict that.

Do you want Josh to have a Cam Newton kind of career, or a Brady/Manning type of career?

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, muppy said:

this is such a great question. I wonder if such stats exist. I would like to know the answer to this. My guess is that most injuries happen to QB's in a collapsing pocket rather than run. Only because QB's who will take chances to scramble and run are fewer than pocket passers....basically more opportunities for injury to  QB's behind the line of scrimmage   than run. Do you agree? What do you think?

Scrambling and designed runs are completely different. I think we have plenty of info on qbs that are run first, having shorter careers.

 

Collapsing pocket, sure take off, be smart, use the sidelines, he's so fast that any threat is coming from the front, so he can take an approach to minimize that collision.

 

Designed runs that require patience and high traffic are bad. Always more worried about taking a awkward hit from behind, or having no real way to slide or get to sideline.

 

Situationally on a 4th and 1 in a close game, sure. Same with red zone. But make sure the risk reward isn't out of whack.

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good article here

https://www.fantasypoints.com/nfl/articles/season/2021/mobile-quarterbacks-and-injury-rates

 

However, bear in mind that a QB being hit in the pocket has the protection of "roughing the passer" calls, while a QB outside the pocket is essentially a running back who can be picked up and slammed to the ground and gang-tackled. 

 

Acute injury is not the only concern; cumulative wear-and-tear on the body is what seems to degrade the performance of RBs going into their 30's.

This!!!! So much

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I'm personally NOT against Josh running.  The threat of his running is one more headache for the defense.  The more the D has to worry about, the better.  

 

Some folks worry about him getting hurt.  I wonder, though, if he's any more likely to get hurt on a run than scanning the field in a collapsing pocket.  I wonder if there are any stats on that?

 

 

I, personally, despise Josh Allen running a QB sweep in the middle of the field against whoever in a random regular season game.  It's ridiculous and unnecessary.  

 

He also should NOT be our short yardage back.  This really shouldn't need to be explained. 

 

Scrambling, QB draws here and there... sure, that's fine.  

 

Then unleash him in the Playoffs. 

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Josh has been running his entire 4 year career. We have tons of tape of him running.

 

We have tape of him juking defenders out of their shoes (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him leaping over defenders (multiple times) to avoid hits. We have tape of him trucking defenders and turning them into rag dolls (multiple times) to be the hitter and avoid hits. And of course we have a ton of tape where he gets down and slides to avoid the hit.

 

I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one.

He did get KOd in a Patriots game running and didn’t finish the game that some will say we could have won, 

 

it’s a matter of doing it the smart/correct way when choosing to run the ball, it’s not that complicated,

 

Go Bills!!!

[TheBrownBear]

12 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

The designed runs were essential in the red zone. Why change it up now after 4 years?

He's a great QB but he's a great football player first 

I agree, but you can't deny that history has taught us that bruising, running QBs will not stand the test of time if you keep slamming them into linebackers.  I'm in the camp that we transition him to mostly a passer/scrambler during the regular season and pull out the full bag of read option plays in the playoffs.  I want this guy to be playing at peak form for the next 8-10 years minimum.