How many of the core ST Aces do they keep?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, Georgie said:

Hodgins has played ST in both preseason games. I dont think The "core" ST vets are guranteed a roster spot and Bills have young guys getting ST reps.

Blackshear RETURNS kicks but I haven't noticed him covering. Even if Bills would cut Jones, Blackshear would be the 5th RB and I dont expect them to keep that many on the 53. I like the 4 of Motor,Moss, Johnson and Cook,with the latter 2 returning kicks. Blackshear might force his way onto the roster.

Cam Lewis been a gunner this summer and provides CB depth. 

All the backup LBs play ST.

 

Think Blackshear would be the 4th.  Doubt they'd keep Johnson over him as better chance they can sneak Johnson to the PS.  Plus Blackshear saves them money

[mrags]

1 minute ago, Bob in STL said:

Maybe Ariza will be special but you don’t know if this is true yet.  Especially in wind and bad weather.  
 

Ariza has just one NFL punt to his name.   The trade-off is kicking high and relying on coverage versus kicking line drives that are much deeper.   Every team has opted to get their punters to kick high and hang time is critical for punt coverage.  
 

What is to stop  a team from putting a second deep return guy out there to catch balls that have out kicked the coverage?   There will be returns and sooner or later teams will break one.  Ariza is working on situational punting that includes higher kicks that have more hang time than he typically gets.  
 

To suggest getting rid of our best punt coverage players on the hope that Ariza kicks everything for a touchback is unrealistic at this point.  

1. I’ll take my chances. We punted 2nd fewest in the league last year. 
 

2. Every other team practices that because none of them have the punt god that can kick it a mile. For the 100th time, the amount we will be punting, and our offense being as good as it is, I would doubt there’s anymore than 5 times we’re pinned inside our own 30 yard line and need to punt. Anything past that yardage mark is almost a guarantee to punt it super deep or into the end zone. There’s about a 18-21 yard sweet spot for him where you would punt it. Because anything within 10 yards of mod field on either side your going to punt it from your own 39, or kick a fg from their 39. Anything in between your offense is likely going for it on 4th down. 
 

3. Teams wouldn’t put another returner that deep because then they leave themselves susceptible to a fake punt. Or, they limit their coverage on the gunners that we have limited by cutting all the aces and out in guys like Hodgins or Neal or Blackshear. 
 

4. A risk I’m willing to take because special teams is on the field less than any group of the team. I’d much rather have players that can play actual offensive or defensive positions. 
 

I say this with the expectation that none of this is happening because McDermott loves his STs aces too much. But I think it’s a mistake. There’s people out there that put up stats and analytics on why it’s wrong to punt at all. 

17 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

What is your opinion on how he handled his duty.?

 

 

Hard to tell from where I was sitting in the end zone. Once the play starts it becomes a jumbled mess. Way to hard to see what’s going on 50 yards downfield in a big pile. And like most others watching on TV that didn’t even know he was out there, they don’t show detailed replays of that stuff so I couldn’t even see that much. 
 

I was admittedly  just watching and enjoying football while the plays were happening as well. Not specifically looking for certain players. 

[mrags]

9 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

He doesn't boot them that far consistently. He didn't in college.  

 

Bass does not have a 100% touch back success in his career

 

We need ST coverage players 

I’ll take my chances. It doesn’t happen enough for me to sacrifice real players at real positions. 
 

guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot. Guys that run the ball 3 times a year is a waste of a roster spot. 
 

I could keep a guy like Matakevich because he does have ability on defense. But guys like Kumerow and Jones should be gone imo. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

50 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

I think Spector makes the 53. Smith is suspended the first 6 games. Dodson I believe is an RFA after the season and Smith, Matakevich, and Edmunds are FAs.  So it makes sense to keep Spector due to probable turnover.  I think Hodgins beats out Kumerow.  Hodgins has 2 years left on his deal.  As long as Hodgins does alright on teams he should beat out Kumerow.  I'm hoping Morris beats out Sweeney.  That would be another young cheap guy.  Sweeney is a JAG.  As good as Blackshear has looked, he's done it against mostly third stringers.  I think they'll try to put him on the PS.

 

True about Smith, that may be Spectors break onto roster.  I'm more leaning towards them keeping Hodgins and Kumerow.  Might come down to a 7th WR or 3 TE's. 

 

Just read an article in the Athletic.  Based on who played when first series with Allen, TE's were Morris Sweeny and Gilliam.  Howard only played with 2nd team.  His thinking is they may be trying to trade Howard as not worth cutting him as salary is almost completely guaranteed.  But still think when you add that Gilliam can play some TE, think you only need to keep  two plus him.

 

I'm torn on Blackshear, he did look very good, but was against 3rd stringers.  Am worried about him making it to PS, but every year there are a couple guys like that, everyone think will be grabbed by another team, but never are.  Think it will come down to Blackshear or Jones.

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, mrags said:

1. I’ll take my chances. We punted 2nd fewest in the league last year. 
 

2. Every other team practices that because none of them have the punt god that can kick it a mile. For the 100th time, the amount we will be punting, and our offense being as good as it is, I would doubt there’s anymore than 5 times we’re pinned inside our own 30 yard line and need to punt. Anything past that yardage mark is almost a guarantee to punt it super deep or into the end zone. There’s about a 18-21 yard sweet spot for him where you would punt it. Because anything within 10 yards of mod field on either side your going to punt it from your own 39, or kick a fg from their 39. Anything in between your offense is likely going for it on 4th down. 
 

3. Teams wouldn’t put another returner that deep because then they leave themselves susceptible to a fake punt. Or, they limit their coverage on the gunners that we have limited by cutting all the aces and out in guys like Hodgins or Neal or Blackshear. 
 

4. A risk I’m willing to take because special teams is on the field less than any group of the team. I’d much rather have players that can play actual offensive or defensive positions. 
 

I say this with the expectation that none of this is happening because McDermott loves his STs aces too much. But I think it’s a mistake. There’s people out there that put up stats and analytics on why it’s wrong to punt at all. 

Hard to tell from where I was sitting in the end zone. Once the play starts it becomes a jumbled mess. Way to hard to see what’s going on 50 yards downfield in a big pile. And like most others watching on TV that didn’t even know he was out there, they don’t show detailed replays of that stuff so I couldn’t even see that much. 
 

I was admittedly  just watching and enjoying football while the plays were happening as well. Not specifically looking for certain players. 

yup. 2nd fewest punts and at any time could put kicks on autopilot by putting them through the end zone. If we chose, we could likely have a historically low number of kicks covered. 
 

While I like the tool of high kickoffs in our tool box… if it means cutting 2 guys that we think will contribute to another team it’s less exciting. The DB, WR and RB won’t likely all 3 contribute a ton but odds are one of them will be a heavy contributor in a playoff game due to injuries 

[mrags]

Just now, NoSaint said:

yup. 2nd fewest punts and at any time could put kicks on autopilot by putting them through the end zone. If we chose, we could likely have a historically low number of kicks covered. 
 

While I like the tool of high kickoffs in our tool box… if it means cutting 2 guys that we think will contribute to another team it’s less exciting. The DB, WR and RB won’t likely all 3 contribute a ton but odds are one of them will be a heavy contributor in a playoff game due to injuries 

Not to mention that next year we will be losing some guys and shouldn’t chance it by cutting a guy and hoping that he makes the PS for another year. 
 

a guy like Blackshear could fill in as a top 3 RB next year after we lose Singletary. Then he could be a top 2 with Cook in 2 years after we lose Moss. 
 

a guy like Hodgins would easily surpass Kumerows accomplishments on offense of he can just be a body on STs. Which he was out on every single kick team  just like Blackshear was yesterday. 
 

Matakevich not only is gone next year, he would save you about 3m in salary’s cap this year if you were to cut him. I’d easily keep Spector over him. 
 

again, I’m not saying to get rid of all of them, but I’d easily cut 2 of them as it’s not as integral to our success anymore. The league is trying to eliminate kickoffs altogether as it is. It’s the way the league is trending with rules on kickoffs. With the 25 yard starting spot for TBs. we have too talented of a roster to be cutting guys that can produce on offense or defense for a guy that can gun on punts. It’s comical imo. 

[ddaryl]

12 minutes ago, mrags said:

I’ll take my chances. It doesn’t happen enough for me to sacrifice real players at real positions. 
 

guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot. Guys that run the ball 3 times a year is a waste of a roster spot. 
 

I could keep a guy like Matakevich because he does have ability on defense. But guys like Kumerow and Jones should be gone imo. 

 

 

Take your chances ?

Bass 

 

56 % last year were TBs

70% in 2020

 

 

.

 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyler-bass-player-stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&seasonType=reg. 

 

 

Punting won't be much different stats wise IMO

 

On average and a guesstimate on my part.. 40% of these plays will be returnable. Too much to ignore solid ST contributors here. 

 

That kind of gross negligents increases the likeliness of getting bit in the ass

 

I can see us keeping a couple of bubble players but we're still keeping a few vets ST players

Edited August 21, 2022 by ddaryl

[mrags]

Just now, ddaryl said:

 

 

Take your chances ?

Bass 

 

56 % last year were TBs

70% in 2020

 

 

.

 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyler-bass-player-stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&seasonType=reg. 

 

 

Punting won't be much different stats wise IMO

 

On average and a guesstimate on my part.. 40% of these plays will be returnable. Too much to ignore solid ST contributors here. 

 

That kind of gross negligents increases the liveliness of getting bit in the ass

 

I can see us keeping a couple of bubble players but we're still keeping a few vets ST players

Yes. Take my chances. Special teams is barely part of the game anymore. 
 

last I checked there aren’t any punt gunners or returners in the HOF but there is a punter. 
 

Just take your chances and boot it as far as you can every time. Forget hang time. Forget trying to pin them deep. Just get that team off the field as quickly as possible and boot it through the stands. 
 

and Bass. An absolutely kick it into the end zone. I don’t believe his numbers are correct because I think they gameplan and play call to have it kicked shorter to encourage a return to try and pin them deep. I think it’s a mistake. I would just tell Bass to make it a TB every time. And I have no doubt he can if asked. But that’s my opinion. And we’ll never know which one of us is correct anyway. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

not the point I was making.

 

there are fewer meaningful special teams snaps today than possibly any point in history. There have been rule changes and better training of kickers. Throw in our offense punting less because they are good. 
 

A kick coverage guy has never had fewer impactful snaps in the history of this team. It’s not discounting their skill or ability.

It takes just one play to completely change the outcome of the game.  You don’t want to lose games on a special teams mishap.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Deadstroke said:

I disagree.  If one of our 1-4 receivers get hurt, he moves up.  

 

OK but so what? Hodgins to me looks like a David Nelson clone. Nothing special about him. Don't really see him being an equivalent upgrade over Kumerow as a WR as Kumerow is to Hodgins on ST.

 

They have Shakir for that.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[Son of a K-Gun]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I’ll take my chances. It doesn’t happen enough for me to sacrifice real players at real positions. 
 

guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot. Guys that run the ball 3 times a year is a waste of a roster spot. 
 

I could keep a guy like Matakevich because he does have ability on defense. But guys like Kumerow and Jones should be gone imo. 

You’re kinda proving the point to keep ST aces…”guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot.”

 

Last season McKenzie was the 5th WR and he had 20 catches, 11 of which were in one game.  There just aren’t that many targets left for whoever the 6th WR is going to be, so why not use that spot on a guy that contributes on ST?  Your 6th WR, 4th RB, 5th LB types must contribute on Special Teams, that’s how a roster is constructed.

 

this isn’t me saying that Kumerow and Jones have to be on the 53, but the Bills need to have these roster spots filled with guys that are core 4 STers.

[Bob in STL]

 

 

1 hour ago, mrags said:

Yes. Take my chances. Special teams is barely part of the game anymore. 
 

last I checked there aren’t any punt gunners or returners in the HOF but there is a punter. 
 

Just take your chances and boot it as far as you can every time. Forget hang time. Forget trying to pin them deep. Just get that team off the field as quickly as possible and boot it through the stands. 
 

and Bass. An absolutely kick it into the end zone. I don’t believe his numbers are correct because I think they gameplan and play call to have it kicked shorter to encourage a return to try and pin them deep. I think it’s a mistake. I would just tell Bass to make it a TB every time. And I have no doubt he can if asked. But that’s my opinion. And we’ll never know which one of us is correct anyway. 

 

Special Teams is certainly a big part of the game, hence this conversation.  Every play is important and the margin for error to win a SB is very low. 

 

Do you recall the special teams gaff last year with 13 seconds left.  We kicked it out of the end zone.  A high, fieldable, and coverable kickoff would have burned the clock down to 7 or 8 seconds and dramatically improved our chances to win.  Now you want to make that our strategy, just kick everything out of the end zone?  In any weather, any time?  
 

Do you recall all the bad weather games and the wind at New Era Field? 
 

If your young favorite rookies can fill the ST needs then they will have a shot to make the team. I trust McDermott and Beane to make that call.  A #4 RB and a #6/7 wideout must contribute something more than being a backup to a backup.  
 

BTW, we gave up 160 yards on 6 kickoffs yesterday.   McD purposely sat his top kick coverage guys so he is looking deeply at everything that you are concerned about.   The coverage was one of the few parts of the Bills game that was mediocre.  

After the next game McD and Beane will have decisions to make and I doubt they will treat kick coverage as “barely part of the game”.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by Bob in STL

[Son of a K-Gun]

59 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

OK but so what? Hodgins to me looks like a David Nelson clone. Nothing special about him. Don't really see him being an equivalent upgrade over Kumerow as a WR as Kumerow is to Hodgins on ST.

 

They have Shakir for that.

 Off topic (sorry), but my wife watches Instagram reels all the time and the other day I catch David Nelson on her phone…apparently his wife is some kind of Instagram influencer?  Just funny to see his name brought up here after just seeing him.

[mrags]

You can all believe what you want. I really don’t care. I think it’s idiotic to keep special teams aces on a team unless it’s a guy that has the ability to return a punt or a kick on any given play. There’s been like 4 Devin Hesters in the leagues history. Anything less than that us a waste of a roster spot. 
 

enjoy your opinions. I’ll enjoy mine 

[Logic]

All of them.

 

Jones, Matakevitch, Neal, and Kumerow are all making the roster.

[BringBackFergy]

Haack

[GoBills808]

17 minutes ago, mrags said:

You can all believe what you want. I really don’t care. I think it’s idiotic to keep special teams aces on a team unless it’s a guy that has the ability to return a punt or a kick on any given play. There’s been like 4 Devin Hesters in the leagues history. Anything less than that us a waste of a roster spot. 
 

enjoy your opinions. I’ll enjoy mine 

I agree. I think the focus on special teams is borderline ridiculous.

 

If it was important it would be manned by your best players, not third stringers and rookies.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Take your chances ?

Bass 

 

56 % last year were TBs

70% in 2020

 

 

.

 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyler-bass-player-stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&seasonType=reg. 

 

 

Punting won't be much different stats wise IMO

 

On average and a guesstimate on my part.. 40% of these plays will be returnable. Too much to ignore solid ST contributors here. 

 

That kind of gross negligents increases the likeliness of getting bit in the ass

 

I can see us keeping a couple of bubble players but we're still keeping a few vets ST players

 

That's rather misleading as pretty certain Bass could have kicked it through the end zone likely every week except maybe the Monday night against NE

 

2 hours ago, mrags said:

Yes. Take my chances. Special teams is barely part of the game anymore. 
 

last I checked there aren’t any punt gunners or returners in the HOF but there is a punter. 
 

Just take your chances and boot it as far as you can every time. Forget hang time. Forget trying to pin them deep. Just get that team off the field as quickly as possible and boot it through the stands. 
 

and Bass. An absolutely kick it into the end zone. I don’t believe his numbers are correct because I think they gameplan and play call to have it kicked shorter to encourage a return to try and pin them deep. I think it’s a mistake. I would just tell Bass to make it a TB every time. And I have no doubt he can if asked. But that’s my opinion. And we’ll never know which one of us is correct anyway. 

 

41 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

 

 

 

Special Teams is certainly a big part of the game, hence this conversation.  Every play is important and the margin for error to win a SB is very low. 

 

Do you recall the special teams gaff last year with 13 seconds left.  We kicked it out of the end zone.  A high, fieldable, and coverable kickoff would have burned the clock down to 7 or 8 seconds and dramatically improved our chances to win.  Now you want to make that our strategy, just kick everything out of the end zone?  In any weather, any time?  
 

Do you recall all the bad weather games and the wind at New Era Field? 
 

If your young favorite rookies can fill the ST needs then they will have a shot to make the team. I trust McDermott and Beane to make that call.  A #4 RB and a #6/7 wideout must contribute something more than being a backup to a backup.  
 

BTW, we gave up 160 yards on 6 kickoffs yesterday.   McD purposely sat his top kick coverage guys so he is looking deeply at everything that you are concerned about.   The coverage was one of the few parts of the Bills game that was mediocre.  

After the next game McD and Beane will have decisions to make and I doubt they will treat kick coverage as “barely part of the game”.  

 

I wouldn't make kicking through the endzone the strategy for the entire season.  But would do it the first 5 or 6 weeks.  Let guys like Spector, Blackshear, and Hodgins get some experience, after that I'd trust them or if they still aren't getting it, then scan the waiver wire for some players with a fair amount of ST experience which likely isn't too hard to find.

 

I would keep Kumerow as he does on occasion play some offensive plays.  Bills were I believe 1st or 2nd in number of plays run with 3 and 4 WR.  With using that many WR, I'd keep 7 on the 53, but likely the last one is inactive on game days.  A this point, that would be Hodgins, but use him all week in practice on ST.  If/when he gets to the point, he's as good as Kumerow, then he's active and Kumerow sits.  Also looking beyond this year, with a year under his belt, could see by next year they keep Hodgins over Kumerow.

 

The one I have the most issue with is Jones as they rarely ever used him as a RB where as Kumerow does play on occasion.  I'd let Jones and Johnson go and keep Blackshear and again he works on ST.  Barring injury he too isn't active on Sundays.  Likely Johnson could slip to PS.

 

Keeping Jones to me is a double wammy in particular this year.  Look at last year, they'd have Jones and 2 RB active on game days.  If they do that again, then either Singletary, Moss, or Cook is sitting.  I think 1 game last season they had Singletary, Moss, and Yeldon active.  However would be surprised if they did that again though this season as all three offer a unique style of play. But if you now have all three active, plus Jones, that's 4. Now add 2 QB's, 8 OL, that likely only leaves you 8 total between TE, FB, and WR as that adds up to 22.   Throw another 22 on defense and 3 true ST adds up to 47.  Or you're shorting the defense.  A total of 8 between TE, FB, and WR seems way to low for a pass heavy team like the Bills.  Whether you put Blackshear on the 53 man roster or not, this issue still exists if they keep Jones.

 

I don't have as much issue with Matakevich as with Smith being out the first 6 weeks and White starting out on IR, they can still keep 6 LB's one of them being Spector and not really cutting someone who's looked good. 

[ColoradoBills]

15 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Looking at the Bills roster I'd classify their core aces as : T Jones, J Kumerow, T Matakevich, S Neal, & R Gilliam with Matakevich and Jones the front runners.  Next level after those 5 are players like T Dodson, J Johnson, D Hamlin for starters.

 

I do think some core specialists are needed for ST on the roster, don't take getting rid of most lightly.  But also think while Matakevich and Jones are the leaders, Kumerow, Neal, and Gilliam have graduated to the point they are ready to have the baton passed to them.  Keeping Matakevich and Jones just means you're delaying the inevitable another season, at some point they will be gone and some new inexperienced guys will take their place on ST.  But there are enough fairly experienced players left as I named above that their absence may not be missed too much.

 

Just want to get the list correct.  When it comes to guys who are "core" non-returner/kicker ST players.  Core is the punt/kickoff both ways guys.

These are the stats for the Bills 4-way core and some 2nd tier players last year.

Core:

Matakevich - 80%

Gilliam - 73%

Jones - 71%

Neal - 66%

Dodson - 64%

Johnson - 63%

Kumerow - 61% (1st season as a core player)

Smith - 60%

2nd Tier:

Klien - 42%

Epenesa - 33%

Hamlin - 29%

 

This year a lock to get a huge amount of ST work and is good at it is Bernard.

 

Guys who if they make the team could be part of the core (unproven as of now) are:

Gilles-Harris (proven ST'er who Smalley has talked up in pressers)

Spector

Blackshear

Hodgins

Not sure if there are anymore.  If someone has seen another I would like to know.

 

 

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

It takes just one play to completely change the outcome of the game.  You don’t want to lose games on a special teams mishap.

 

you could end that post 5 words earlier. 
 

Those plays hang in our mind because they are both shocking and rare.