How many of the core ST Aces do they keep?

[Simon Says]

8 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Makes no sense to keep players who don't play ST that will either be inactive or get 4-5 snaps a game over a player who is critical on ST.

 

People act like if we keep Hodgins over Kumerow that he is going to be in the games a lot...he isn't. He will have minimal snaps and will not play teams. Doesn't make sense to keep players who won't play anyway over guys who are core ST players.

Hodgins has played ST in both preseason games. I dont think The "core" ST vets are guranteed a roster spot and Bills have young guys getting ST reps.

Blackshear RETURNS kicks but I haven't noticed him covering. Even if Bills would cut Jones, Blackshear would be the 5th RB and I dont expect them to keep that many on the 53. I like the 4 of Motor,Moss, Johnson and Cook,with the latter 2 returning kicks. Blackshear might force his way onto the roster.

Cam Lewis been a gunner this summer and provides CB depth. 

All the backup LBs play ST.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Makes no sense to keep players who don't play ST that will either be inactive or get 4-5 snaps a game over a player who is critical on ST.

 

People act like if we keep Hodgins over Kumerow that he is going to be in the games a lot...he isn't. He will have minimal snaps and will not play teams. Doesn't make sense to keep players who won't play anyway over guys who are core ST players.

 

Agree so keep the guy Kumerow who does play all ST.  IMO they will keep both have 7 WR, but because Hodgins doesn't play much of any ST he will be inactive on game days and Kumerow will play

 

 

9 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Spector  is replacing Klein not Matakevich.  I can see both Klein and Matakevich.  Matakevich has shown capable of being a spot replacer on defense.

 

No 3rd round pick T Bernard replace Klein.  Dodson has also shown to be able to play LB and he'll be 1st one in to play.  If Smith makes team after games 6, he'd be 2nd one in or maybe by then Bernard will have clearly passed him on depth chart

 

 

5 hours ago, Buddo said:

Matakevitch has always performed well as a LB when asked to. Imho if he didn’t play teams, he could be first off the bench @ LB and we wouldn’t struggle if that was the case.

With Bass and Araiza, I do think there’s an opportunity to re-think what we want to, or can, do with Special Teams, and I believe that could provide a chance to keep someone we may have previously let go.

 

Really when, the only times I recall seeing Matakevich play was either in a couple of blow outs or may have been a time when both Edmunds and Milano were hurt.  But don't recall him playing very well actually.  Think you may be mixing him up with Klein who did looked good in spurts.

 

 

3 hours ago, CSBill said:

 

Agree.

 

Other roster factors will heavily influence this decision, but I think one is gone. There are only so many specialist you can keep. There is not room or need for Jones in the RB room, and I don't think Matakevich has played a down on defense in the preseason, so who knows? I would add, it appears there are some much better options than Kumerow on the receiving depth chart.

 

I think all three are in trouble. I would not be surprised if all of them are let go. But, knowing how this staff loves their ST'ers, I also would not be surprised if all three are in the line-up on September 8.

 

Neither has miller, so not sure that means much.

 

Who are better depth options, Hodgins.  He's looked good, but has had issues staying healthy.  Believe I read they are starting to have him play ST only starting now, so wouldn't want to count on him over Kumerow at this point.  I think if they do play Hodgins on ST this year (or maybe just in practice if he's rarely active) by next season he'd be ready to take Kumerows spot and be a stronger WR option.  IMO they will keep 7 WR, both Kumerow and Hodgins, but on game days only dress 6 and Hodgins will be the odd mad out barring injury.

 

I would not get rid of all 3, would keep Kumerow as cheaper than other two and he does play some WR when needed.  The other two only played in blow outs.

 

 

2 hours ago, DCbillsfan said:

Matakevich, Jones, and Neal are all making the team imo.  None of them played yesterday which indicates to me they are safe.  They tried a bunch of different guys on kickoff coverage yesterday.  Mixed results.  Probably last year for Jones and Matakevich.  Neal just signed 3 year extension in the Spring.

 

Agree on Neal, think they didn't play as the team knows what they have in them so don't need to show it.  Trouble is Beane did too good of a job finding some late round gems so may have to re think who they are and aren't keeping.  That's part of my point, if it's the last year anyway, then you'll end up starting over next year.  Instead keep a guy like Spector and Bradshear, use them all year on ST, by next season they will be strong players on ST.

 

[hemma]

Can any of these guys block (excluding back), because the emphasis should be on returns, not coverage.

Shackling Bass & Araiza, then ‘fixing’ the self-created problem by rostering a bunch of coverage ‘studs’ is nuts.

If Bass and Araiza use their big boom legs and put it out of the end zone then the Coverage units can run down there like seconds in a Monty Python skit.  Who’d care?

 

Focus on the Return teams and make them an extension of the Offense.  Use guys that have great hands, can actually block and make our Return teams an opponent’s nightmare.

[Bob in STL]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you do realize special teams players are impactful on very few plays too, right?

EVERY ST play is impactful and can lead to a large swing in field positions, therefore the players that excel on ST are impactful.   Those boring ST kick coverages where we tackle them at the 20 are impactful because blowing just one kick coverage can cost you a game. 
 

Refer to the blocked punt by Pittsburgh last season.  Lost game and lost home field playoff advantage to KC. 

[mrags]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you do realize special teams players are impactful on very few plays too, right?

Even less now if you have a punter that can boot it through the end zone app at anytime from almost anywhere 

[DCbillsfan]

58 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Agree on Neal, think they didn't play as the team knows what they have in them so don't need to show it.  Trouble is Beane did too good of a job finding some late round gems so may have to re think who they are and aren't keeping.  That's part of my point, if it's the last year anyway, then you'll end up starting over next year.  Instead keep a guy like Spector and Bradshear, use them all year on ST, by next season they will be strong players on ST.

 

I think Spector makes the 53. Smith is suspended the first 6 games. Dodson I believe is an RFA after the season and Smith, Matakevich, and Edmunds are FAs.  So it makes sense to keep Spector due to probable turnover.  I think Hodgins beats out Kumerow.  Hodgins has 2 years left on his deal.  As long as Hodgins does alright on teams he should beat out Kumerow.  I'm hoping Morris beats out Sweeney.  That would be another young cheap guy.  Sweeney is a JAG.  As good as Blackshear has looked, he's done it against mostly third stringers.  I think they'll try to put him on the PS.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you do realize special teams players are impactful on very few plays too, right?

 

It's more than 0.

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

Even less now if you have a punter that can boot it through the end zone app at anytime from almost anywhere 

 

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Agree so keep the guy Kumerow who does play all ST.  IMO they will keep both have 7 WR, but because Hodgins doesn't play much of any ST he will be inactive on game days and Kumerow will play

 

 

 

No 3rd round pick T Bernard replace Klein.  Dodson has also shown to be able to play LB and he'll be 1st one in to play.  If Smith makes team after games 6, he'd be 2nd one in or maybe by then Bernard will have clearly passed him on depth chart

 

 

 

Really when, the only times I recall seeing Matakevich play was either in a couple of blow outs or may have been a time when both Edmunds and Milano were hurt.  But don't recall him playing very well actually.  Think you may be mixing him up with Klein who did looked good in spurts.

 

 

 

Neither has miller, so not sure that means much.

 

Who are better depth options, Hodgins.  He's looked good, but has had issues staying healthy.  Believe I read they are starting to have him play ST only starting now, so wouldn't want to count on him over Kumerow at this point.  I think if they do play Hodgins on ST this year (or maybe just in practice if he's rarely active) by next season he'd be ready to take Kumerows spot and be a stronger WR option.  IMO they will keep 7 WR, both Kumerow and Hodgins, but on game days only dress 6 and Hodgins will be the odd mad out barring injury.

 

I would not get rid of all 3, would keep Kumerow as cheaper than other two and he does play some WR when needed.  The other two only played in blow outs.

 

 

 

Agree on Neal, think they didn't play as the team knows what they have in them so don't need to show it.  Trouble is Beane did too good of a job finding some late round gems so may have to re think who they are and aren't keeping.  That's part of my point, if it's the last year anyway, then you'll end up starting over next year.  Instead keep a guy like Spector and Bradshear, use them all year on ST, by next season they will be strong players on ST.

 

 

That's the idea. And if either is scooped up? Sign other guys you liked who get cut.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you do realize special teams players are impactful on very few plays too, right?

Just because you don’t see an impact doesn’t mean they’re impactful.

 

A gunnner who causes a fair catch instead of KR gaining 25 yards is impactful.

 

Or a guy staying disciplined in his lane keeps a huge play from happening.  The Music City Miracle happened because everybody ran towards the ball and didn’t stay in their lanes.  The entire left side of the field has zero Bills there.

 

A ST guy missing an assignment and giving up a blocked punt like the Steelers game…cost us a lot.

 

2 years ago the special teams unit cost ruined the Chargers season.

[Big Turk]

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

you do realize special teams players are impactful on very few plays too, right?

 

Yes but bad special teams tend to come back to bite you at the worst possible times like late in close games or in the playoffs and as such are very important to ensure those are solid.

 

Trust me, those 3 snaps a game the #6 WR would play or those 4 snaps the #4 RB gets aren't going to matter a whole lot.

 

Makes zero and I mean zero sense to weaken very good special teams units to keep guys who would be far worse and would barely play on offense, which is why you would keep them. So in effect you'd have guys that did basically nothing.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[ddaryl]

Watching our KR team minus our aces tells me we're keeping a few vets here.

 

1 more preseason game but there is a ton of improvement needed from some of our young players fighting for a job.

 

It will be a tough on that final cut down, We may roll the dice on a noob or 2 but we'll be keeping a few ST vets as well.

 

[SCBills]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yes but bad special teams tend to come back to bite you at the worst possible times like late in close games or in the playoffs and as such are very important to ensure those are solid.

 

Trust me, those 3 snaps a game the #6 WR would play or those 4 snaps the #4 RB gets aren't going to matter a whole lot.

 

Makes zero and I mean zero sense to weaken very good special teams units to keep guys who would be far worse and would barely play on offense, which is why you would keep them. So in effect you'd have guys that did basically nothing.

I’ve swung more to the side of understanding why we’d focus more on ST’s, but I don’t think the people clamoring for Hodgins, Blackshear and Spector are doing so for this year..  
 

I think many see the writing on the wall at LB and RB after this season, and realize Spector could be a good depth LB and Blackshear a good RB3 behind Moss and Cook.   Hodgins plays a premium position and has flashed, with another cheap year on his deal next season.  
 

[mrags]

3 hours ago, Georgie said:

Hodgins has played ST in both preseason games. I dont think The "core" ST vets are guranteed a roster spot and Bills have young guys getting ST reps.

Blackshear RETURNS kicks but I haven't noticed him covering. Even if Bills would cut Jones, Blackshear would be the 5th RB and I dont expect them to keep that many on the 53. I like the 4 of Motor,Moss, Johnson and Cook,with the latter 2 returning kicks. Blackshear might force his way onto the roster.

Cam Lewis been a gunner this summer and provides CB depth. 

All the backup LBs play ST.

He was in on every single kickoff yesterday that I noticed. Made it a point to look for many of these players that we have been arguing about on here. 

[ddaryl]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

He was in on every single kickoff yesterday that I noticed. Made it a point to look for many of these players that we have been arguing about on here. 

 

 

What is your opinion on how he handled his duty.?

 

 

[NoSaint]

17 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yes but bad special teams tend to come back to bite you at the worst possible times like late in close games or in the playoffs and as such are very important to ensure those are solid.

 

Trust me, those 3 snaps a game the #6 WR would play or those 4 snaps the #4 RB gets aren't going to matter a whole lot.

 

Makes zero and I mean zero sense to weaken very good special teams units to keep guys who would be far worse and would barely play on offense, which is why you would keep them. So in effect you'd have guys that did basically nothing.

a few counter points:

 

1) come January when we have some injuries, that backup WR, LB, DB etc… may be a full time starter

 

2) a dropped pass, missed block or blown coverage can lose a game just as quickly

 

3) a team paying stars needs a deep developmental pipeline. 
 

ideally you can find guys that do both. I can stomach a specialist or two. Once you are talking 3-4 take guys that are best at their core position and teach them to stay in their lanes in kick coverage 

[BuffaloRebound]

3 hours ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

I want the young guys to get their shot, but this fanbase of all fanbase should know the importance of special teams.  Between Steve Tasker’s contributions and heartbreaking losses due to ST breakdowns, I have seen the value in having a unit you can trust to make all of the plays when the pressure is ratcheted up to the highest level in the biggest spotlight.

 

The organization knows this, and these veteran ST aces are making the 53 without a second thought.

I understand this point of view and even agree with a lot of it, but all those ST-only guys didn’t prevent a 70 yard punt return in KC game and didn’t stop the coaches from being scared to kick it short in those 13 seconds.  

There’s also the point of view that it’s better to kick the ball in the end zone on every punt/kick.  And to take the ball at the 25 on every return and give the ball to

our offense.  

Jones is the ST-only guy I take the most issue with especially with Gilliam on roster. I prefer carrying 4 RB’s that can play RB.  RB is a position where you go with the hot hand.  Guys get knicked up and can also go through slumps fumbling the ball.  Keep Blackshear and have a 4 headed monster so our franchise QB doesn’t have to run as much especially early in the season.   

[Don Otreply]

12 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Makes no sense to keep players who don't play ST that will either be inactive or get 4-5 snaps a game over a player who is critical on ST.

 

People act like if we keep Hodgins over Kumerow that he is going to be in the games a lot...he isn't. He will have minimal snaps and will not play teams. Doesn't make sense to keep players who won't play anyway over guys who are core ST players.

People don’t think that, that is a perception thing, People are actually thinking about late in this season and into next season, and beyond that, the NFL IS NOT just a right now league, it is just as importantly the next two to five years league, a GMs planning is constantly reaching out into future years. That’s what people are concerned with, and driving at. Some are just more eloquent than others when expressing those thoughts.
 

Absolutely No one thinks Hodgins is taking snaps away from the top three /four wideouts, but,’he can play STs and has more up side than TD Jesus as a receiver,  we all know this. 

[Bob in STL]

34 minutes ago, mrags said:

Even less now if you have a punter that can boot it through the end zone app at anytime from almost anywhere 

Maybe Ariza will be special but you don’t know if this is true yet.  Especially in wind and bad weather.  
 

Ariza has just one NFL punt to his name.   The trade-off is kicking high and relying on coverage versus kicking line drives that are much deeper.   Every team has opted to get their punters to kick high and hang time is critical for punt coverage.  
 

What is to stop  a team from putting a second deep return guy out there to catch balls that have out kicked the coverage?   There will be returns and sooner or later teams will break one.  Ariza is working on situational punting that includes higher kicks that have more hang time than he typically gets.  
 

To suggest getting rid of our best punt coverage players on the hope that Ariza kicks everything for a touchback is unrealistic at this point.  

[NoSaint]

23 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Just because you don’t see an impact doesn’t mean they’re impactful.

 

A gunnner who causes a fair catch instead of KR gaining 25 yards is impactful.

 

Or a guy staying disciplined in his lane keeps a huge play from happening.  The Music City Miracle happened because everybody ran towards the ball and didn’t stay in their lanes.  The entire left side of the field has zero Bills there.

 

A ST guy missing an assignment and giving up a blocked punt like the Steelers game…cost us a lot.

 

2 years ago the special teams unit cost ruined the Chargers season.

not the point I was making.

 

there are fewer meaningful special teams snaps today than possibly any point in history. There have been rule changes and better training of kickers. Throw in our offense punting less because they are good. 
 

A kick coverage guy has never had fewer impactful snaps in the history of this team. It’s not discounting their skill or ability.

[ddaryl]

45 minutes ago, mrags said:

Even less now if you have a punter that can boot it through the end zone app at anytime from almost anywhere 

 

 

He doesn't boot them that far consistently. He didn't in college.  

 

Bass does not have a 100% touch back success in his career

 

We need ST coverage players 

Edited August 21, 2022 by ddaryl

[Deadstroke]

12 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Makes no sense to keep players who don't play ST that will either be inactive or get 4-5 snaps a game over a player who is critical on ST.

 

People act like if we keep Hodgins over Kumerow that he is going to be in the games a lot...he isn't. He will have minimal snaps and will not play teams. Doesn't make sense to keep players who won't play anyway over guys who are core ST players.

I disagree.  If one of our 1-4 receivers get hurt, he moves up.