Hodgins must stay

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:41 PM, BuffBillsForLife said:

Kumerow is getting the last WR slot over Hodgins because of how much this coaching staff values special teams contributions for backups.

 

I'm just happy we're at the point where our 6th string WR is a real contributor.

 

 

They value ST so much, they prioritize keeping guys solely for the ST ability, only to not trust them to do their job and cover a squib kick with 13 seconds left?  I’m not arguing whether or not they prioritize ST, I agree they have done this in the past, my question is what’s the point if you don’t trust these specialists when it matters most anyway?

 

After that nonsense I don’t understand nor agree with prioritizing guys like Kumerow who have zero potential to develop into a meaningful WR over somebody like Hodgins, or Stevenson even if he was healthy. Hodgins atleast brings the possibility that he could step up and contribute if his number is called, where as Kumerow is what he is at this point in his career.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Dr.Mantis_Toboggan

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Who is the Buccaneers Taiwan Jones? 

 

They don't have a Taiwan Jones, but the Bills are far from the only team who keep an elite gunner just to be a gunner. Multiple Superbowl Champions New England do too. 

27 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

True.  But let's not inflate Kumerow's WR skills.  He has proven he can't separate from CBs.  He had his shot at being a reliable depth WR last year.

I think we have seen his ceiling and unless he is destined to replace a guy like Jones for a ST Core Elite guy his lack of WR skills will put

him back on the PS IMO.

 

Hodgins' ceiling is not yet known but he also has taken snaps with the 1s in camp and from all reports played well.  While his play in the next

2 preseason games are important it's been said repeatedly that the overall camp performance is just as, if not more important.

 

It is an interesting situation and you and I see it from different points of view which is fine with me.  I'm quite sure that what you and I are

debating will be exactly what the coaches will be doing in the next couple of weeks.  We will soon all find out what they decide!

 

I don't think we do see it that differently. Hodgins vs Kumerow is still a competition IMO. My only point is that until the team showd us different they have Kumerow ahead.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They don't have a Taiwan Jones, but the Bills are far from the only team who keep an elite gunner just to be a gunner. Multiple Superbowl Champions New England do too. 

Yup, that’s why the Pats have all those rings, their gunners… Brady was just along for the ride.

[LABILLBACKER]

I think if Hodgins puts together a couple more good preseason games, we'll be saying goodbye to Kumerow. It's mind bogling that this organization puts so much emphasis on ST only to ignore them like the KC game. 

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

 

After that nonsense I don’t understand nor agree with prioritizing guys like Kumerow who have zero potential to develop into a meaningful WR over somebody like Hodgins, or Stevenson even if he was healthy. Hodgins atleast brings the possibility that he could step up and contribute if his number is called, where as Kumerow is what he is at this point in his career.

 

This is all I've been saying.  Slow clap from me.  The crazy thing is when Kumerow was picked up by the Bills I had high hopes he could

be the cheap/reliable depth WR that all teams need.  I feel that last year was his big chance and I have to now admit, he is who he is.

A JAG receiver at best who is pretty good on ST.

 

In regard to ST, the Bills have a lot of players who excel on the squads and if they move on from Kumerow I am confident they have

other players that can take up his snaps.  The only other point I try to make is we haven't seen how effective Hodgins can be on ST.

 

My hope was for Kumerow, now it's for Hodgins.  If he fails, they need to reload with another next year.

[Scott7975]

If it were me I would keep Hodgins over Kumerow.  Just because Kumerow played special teams doesn't mean he isn't replaceable on special teams.

[FireChans]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They don't have a Taiwan Jones, but the Bills are far from the only team who keep an elite gunner just to be a gunner. Multiple Superbowl Champions New England do too. 

 

I don't think we do see it that differently. Hodgins vs Kumerow is still a competition IMO. My only point is that until the team showd us different they have Kumerow ahead.

As we have seen, they have kept their elite gunner but the Super Bowls have dried up over the last couple seasons. 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sarcasm aside, the point is the Bills do have elite gunners. So why would you take away an elite element of your team in order to prioritise a 5th or 6th guy at a position where they are very unlikely to see the field? I'm sure they want to see Isaiah play some special teams because for them to even consider keeping him above a guy who has proven very able at it would be taking a voluntary downgrade to your team. 

You’re bias for gunners Bill, so how can we take your word for the above 👆 

 

 😂

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

Yup, that’s why the Pats have all those rings, their gunners… Brady was just along for the ride.

 

That was not the argument. But the argument that it is somehow a waste of a roster spot doesn't get past the point that the most successful dynasty of all time always carried one.

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

As we have seen, they have kept their elite gunner but the Super Bowls have dried up over the last couple seasons. 

 

But nobody is arguing an elite gunner wins you Superbowls. Just that they add more value to your team than fringe talent depth players.

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But nobody is arguing an elite gunner wins you Superbowls. Just that they add more value to your team than fringe talent depth players.

 

It's also true that many "fringe talent depth players" once given an opportunity have excelled.

The Bills to their credit have a couple of elite gunners already with hopefully another (Bernard) in the wings.

At this point Kumerow is a depth gunner.

 

I'll get off my Hyde Park soapbox now!

[Brand J]

We can no longer argue about Araiza and his ability or inability to hold for FGs, so the discussion has moved to gunner gods on STs. How lovely it is to have such a strong roster! Go Bills! 💙❤️

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That was not the argument. But the argument that it is somehow a waste of a roster spot doesn't get past the point that the most successful dynasty of all time always carried one.

 

But nobody is arguing an elite gunner wins you Superbowls. Just that they add more value to your team than fringe talent depth players.

I reject the assertion that it’s IMPORTANT.

 

2020 Bucs had 29th ST unit in the NFL per DVOA. 
 

2019 KC was 2.

 

2018 NE was 16.

 

2017 PHI was 16.

 

2016 NE was 8.

 

It doesn’t matter. 
 

The history of the NFL tells us it’s much more important to be elite offensively or defensively than have anything better than average STers. If you have two young guys who are both gonna be at the end of the roster, and one is a better STer, by all means keep that one. But this fixation with maximizing the ST unit with players who will NEVER EVER be contributors on the offensive or defensive side of the ball is just poor strategy. Siran Neal is a good example. Great youngish (well not anymore) STer who can play some defense. Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow is puke.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I reject the assertion that it’s IMPORTANT.

 

2020 Bucs had 29th ST unit in the NFL per DVOA. 
 

2019 KC was 2.

 

2018 NE was 16.

 

2017 PHI was 16.

 

2016 NE was 8.

 

It doesn’t matter. 
 

The history of the NFL tells us it’s much more important to be elite offensively or defensively than have anything better than average STers. If you have two young guys who are both gonna be at the end of the roster, and one is a better STer, by all means keep that one. But this fixation with maximizing the ST unit with players who will NEVER EVER be contributors on the offensive or defensive side of the ball is just poor strategy. Siran Neal is a good example. Great youngish (well not anymore) STer who can play some defense. Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow is puke.

 

That is not what the Bills are doing. They are keeping an elite gunner (Jones) over some guys who are fringe talents and never see the field. 

 

On Kumerow I agree with you. But someone has to beat him off the roster. If someone does that he won't be here.

[Andrew Son]

Hodgins has a pretty nice release for a big guy.  Intriguing for sure.

[Turk71]

I don't think Kumerow is anything special on STs or as a wr. Hodgins fits a niche as a wr that the Bills need. I think it would be a mistake to let him go. If they do I think he will be picked up and have a decent career somewhere else.

  

On 8/15/2022 at 2:17 PM, Don Otreply said:

All the points folk are making in this thread are valid, to include what you posted, it’s is gonna be a narrow window for him to make the 53, especially if they go with 6 WRs, if the go with 7 he has a slightly bigger window. It would suck if we attempt to practice squad the guy and he get poached by another team going through the waiver process, we shall see. 

I think trying to put him on the p s would be the same as releasing him. He will almost certainly be poached imo.

I saw him play in college many times and was in the stadium for 2 of his games. He caught almost everything thrown in his direction and was most efficient in the red zone; 12 red zone targets for 12 catches and 9 tds his last college year.

 On a side note; his father James Hodgins spent 8 years in the NFL as a fullback and won a SB with the Rams lead blocking for Marshall Faulk. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Turk71

[Don Otreply]

7 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

I don't think Kumerow is anything special on STs or as a wr. Hodgins fits a niche as a wr that the Bills need. I think it would be a mistake to let him go. If they do I think he will be picked up and have a decent career somewhere else.

  

I think trying to put him on the p s would be the same as releasing him. He will almost certainly be poached imo.

I saw him play in college many times and was in the stadium for 2 of his games. He caught almost everything thrown in his direction and was most efficient in the red zone; 12 red zone targets for 12 catches and 9 tds his last college year.

 On a side note; his father James Hodgins spent 8 years in the NFL as a fullback and won a SB with the Rams lead blocking for Marshall Faulk. 

I quite agree with you, in that putting Hodgins through waviers is the same as cutting him results wise, he would never make it to the PS, imo we need to figure out the correct way to get him on the 53.  I’m certain Beane understands this as well. 

[BillsFanNC]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I reject the assertion that it’s IMPORTANT.

 

2020 Bucs had 29th ST unit in the NFL per DVOA. 
 

2019 KC was 2.

 

2018 NE was 16.

 

2017 PHI was 16.

 

2016 NE was 8.

 

It doesn’t matter. 
 

The history of the NFL tells us it’s much more important to be elite offensively or defensively than have anything better than average STers. If you have two young guys who are both gonna be at the end of the roster, and one is a better STer, by all means keep that one. But this fixation with maximizing the ST unit with players who will NEVER EVER be contributors on the offensive or defensive side of the ball is just poor strategy. Siran Neal is a good example. Great youngish (well not anymore) STer who can play some defense. Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow is puke.

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

My friend, overemphasizing 3 plays over 32 years ain’t the way. But point taken lol.

 

IMO, 13 seconds was a failure of defense INFINITELY more than ST. 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is not what the Bills are doing. They are keeping an elite gunner (Jones) over some guys who are fringe talents and never see the field. 

 

On Kumerow I agree with you. But someone has to beat him off the roster. If someone does that he won't be here.

I really don’t think elite gunners matter. 
 

This emphasis on special teams will disappear as football is dragged kicking and screaming into the analytic age. I just truly don’t believe the value is there IRT roster building. It will suck for guys like Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow across the league, but IMO your special teams coach is supposed to get your end of the roster people coached up on ST, not need “elite” bums. 
 

Guys like Stefon Diggs and AB were STers early in their careers. I would hate to be the team that gets rid of them too early in favor of 32 year old gunners. 

[John from Riverside]

37 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

Why did 13 seconds get included in that

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Why did 13 seconds get included in that

Kicking off instead of squib kicking it