ChiGoose Posted February 9 Posted February 9 Per Special Counsel Hur: "It is not our role to assess the criminal charges pending against Mr. Trump, but several material distinctions between Mr. Trump's case and Mr. Biden's are clear. Unlike the evidence involving Mr. Biden, the allegations set forth in the indictment of Mr. Trump, if proven, would present serious aggravating facts. Most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, Mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite. According to the indictment, he not only refused to return the documents for many months, but he also obstructed justice by enlisting others to destroy evidence and then to lie about it. In contrast, Mr. Biden turned in classified documents to the National Archives and the Department of Justice, consented to the search of multiple locations including his homes, sat for a voluntary interview. and in other ways cooperated with the investigation." (Page 15) Wow. If only someone here had been pointing this exact thing out for months and months... 1
Biden is Mentally Fit Posted February 9 Posted February 9 2 hours ago, ChiGoose said: Per Special Counsel Hur: "It is not our role to assess the criminal charges pending against Mr. Trump, but several material distinctions between Mr. Trump's case and Mr. Biden's are clear. Unlike the evidence involving Mr. Biden, the allegations set forth in the indictment of Mr. Trump, if proven, would present serious aggravating facts. Most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, Mr. Trump allegedly did the opposite. According to the indictment, he not only refused to return the documents for many months, but he also obstructed justice by enlisting others to destroy evidence and then to lie about it. In contrast, Mr. Biden turned in classified documents to the National Archives and the Department of Justice, consented to the search of multiple locations including his homes, sat for a voluntary interview. and in other ways cooperated with the investigation." (Page 15) Wow. If only someone here had been pointing this exact thing out for months and months... Your claim all along has been that it’s all good because Biden complied with the request to return documents. Hur’s report makes it clear they aren’t charging him because he’s too feeble to stand trial, not because he was a good citizen for turning them in. You are actually trying to take a victory lap? 1 1
BillsFanNC Posted February 9 Posted February 9 2 minutes ago, JDHillFan said: Your claim all along has been that it’s all good because Biden complied with the request to return documents. Hur’s report makes it clear they aren’t charging him because he’s too feeble to stand trial, not because he was a good citizen for turning them in. You are actually trying to take a victory lap? Moving the goalposts? Hand waving? Bloviating? The King? No friggin way!
ChiGoose Posted February 9 Posted February 9 (edited) 20 minutes ago, JDHillFan said: Your claim all along has been that it’s all good because Biden complied with the request to return documents. Hur’s report makes it clear they aren’t charging him because he’s too feeble to stand trial, not because he was a good citizen for turning them in. You are actually trying to take a victory lap? Hur's report makes clear that they aren't charging him because there isn't a basis to charge him. Both because of the cooperation and because any charges would be weak and unlikely to succeed. "The best case for charges would rely on Mr. Biden's possession of the Afghanistan documents in his Virginia home in February 2017. when he was a private citizen and when he told his ghostwriter he had just found classified material. Several defenses are likely to create reasonable doubt as to such charges. For example, Mr. Biden could have found the classified Afghanistan documents at his Virginia home in 2017 and then forgotten about them soon after. This could convince some reasonable jurors that he did not retain them willfully. When Mr. Biden told his ghostwriter about finding ''all the classified stuff downstairs," his tone was matter-of-fact. For a person who had viewed classified documents nearly every day for eight years as vice president, including regularly in his home, finding classified documents at home less than a month after leaving office could have been an unremarkable and forgettable event. Notably, the classified Afghanistan documents did not come up again in Mr. Biden's dozens of hours of recorded conversations with the ghostwriter, or in his book. And the place where the Afghanistan documents were eventually found in Mr. Biden's Delaware garage-in a badly damaged box surrounded by household detritus-suggests the documents might have been forgotten." While Hur comments on Biden's memory and how it would impact potential prosecution, it is very clear to anyone actually reading the document that even if Biden had perfect recollection, Hur would not bring charges because the facts don't warrant it: "Another viable defense is that Mr. Biden might not have retained the classified Afghanistan documents in his Virginia home at all. They could have been stored, by mistake and without his knowledge, at his Delaware home since the time he was vice president, as were other classified documents recovered during our investigation. This would rebut charges that he willfully retained the documents in Virginia. Given Mr. Biden's limited precision and recall during his interviews with his ghostwriter and with our office, jurors may hesitate to place too much evidentiary weight on a single eight-word utterance to his ghostwriter about finding classified documents in Virginia, in the absence of other, more direct evidence. We searched for such additional evidence and found it wanting. In particular, no witness, photo, email, text message, or any other evidence conclusively places the Afghanistan documents at the Virginia home in 2017." The 2017 comment about the classified documents is the only evidence they found that Biden knew he had the classified Afghanistan documents at home during the time he was neither President or Vice President. And the evidence they can present to the jury is: that he said it. That's it. That couldn't even confirm that the documents were actually there at that time. The entire case would be: "About a month after he left office, Biden told someone he had classified documents. We cannot prove that he was actually referencing classified documents in his possession and have found no other corroborating evidence to support the charge. Please find him guilty." Nobody would take that case to a jury even if the potential defendant was someone who wouldn't garner jury sympathy. So yeah, the difference as to why Trump was charged while Pence and Biden weren't was that Trump tried to obstruct the investigation. That's what the facts show and that's what Hur explicitly states. Edited February 9 by ChiGoose 1
Wacka Posted February 9 Posted February 9 Dem house of cards comes falling down by Joke just breathing.
Doc Posted February 9 Posted February 9 What Joke did was even worse than what Trump did. You can vainly try and spin it anyway you like but it only makes you/the Dems look even more foolish.
BillStime Posted February 9 Author Posted February 9 24 minutes ago, Doc said: What Joke did was even worse than what Trump did. You can vainly try and spin it anyway you like but it only makes you/the Dems look even more foolish. Did Conald not obstruct every way possible to conceal documents? Simple yes or no will do, DoC
ChiGoose Posted February 9 Posted February 9 34 minutes ago, Doc said: What Joke did was even worse than what Trump did. You can vainly try and spin it anyway you like but it only makes you/the Dems look even more foolish. The irony here is incredible.
Doc Posted February 9 Posted February 9 9 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: The irony here is incredible. How so? You guys set the ground rules. Joke knowingly possessed classified information and shared it. The difference is that I'm not calling for Joke to be prosecuted.
ChiGoose Posted February 9 Posted February 9 2 hours ago, Doc said: How so? You guys set the ground rules. Joke knowingly possessed classified information and shared it. The difference is that I'm not calling for Joke to be prosecuted. Not sure who “you guys” are but the rules were set by statute and case law. Former elected officials don’t get prosecuted if they turn everything over. The difference why Trump ended up indicted is exactly what Republican Special Counsel Hur said: he refused to return the materials and obstructed the investigation.
sherpa Posted February 10 Posted February 10 They are both guilty beyond reasonable argument. The difference is that Biden is now absolutely done. Last night was fatal. It is over. Trump, we shall see. 1 1
BillStime Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 9 minutes ago, sherpa said: The difference is that Biden is now absolutely done. Last night was fatal. It is over. We will save this for posterity.
sherpa Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Just now, BillStime said: We will save this for posterity. Save it. He is done. Not that he will remember it. Should be a good week watching his staff react after having failed to protect him from himself. They'll be on it first thing after the Super Bowl.
Doc Posted February 10 Posted February 10 16 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Not sure who “you guys” are but the rules were set by statute and case law. Former elected officials don’t get prosecuted if they turn everything over. The difference why Trump ended up indicted is exactly what Republican Special Counsel Hur said: he refused to return the materials and obstructed the investigation. Sorry but it's not just about giving it back as soon as you're asked: it's about knowingly possessing it and worse yet, sharing it. All this time you've been trying to convince yourself that it was "spillage" by his underlings and he never knew it was there (even though it was in his garage in plain sight). That's been proven to be false. And we also learned he showed it to his biographer. 11 minutes ago, sherpa said: They are both guilty beyond reasonable argument. The difference is that Biden is now absolutely done. Last night was fatal. It is over. Trump, we shall see. Yup. As I've been saying all along, they all do it even though they know they shouldn't. And now that we know both knew they had classified docs and didn't give them back, the Dems can either continue hurting themselves by pursuing Trump or acknowledge that fact and say "OK, Trump gave them back, it's over." 3 minutes ago, sherpa said: Save it. He is done. Not that he will remember it. Should be a good week watching his staff react after having failed to protect him from himself. They'll be on it first thing after the Super Bowl. He's done, but less for the classified docs than being called senile, as far back as 2017. And continuing to make gaffes, even when trying to claim he's not senile.
BillStime Posted February 10 Author Posted February 10 10 minutes ago, sherpa said: Save it. He is done. Not that he will remember it. Should be a good week watching his staff react after having failed to protect him from himself. They'll be on it first thing after the Super Bowl. We will see who has the last laugh. A Democrat will ever vote for this POS: 8 minutes ago, Doc said: He's done, but less for the classified docs than being called senile, as far back as 2017. And continuing to make gaffes, even when trying to claim he's not senile. Trump is on a roll tonight bro - gaffe and misfire after misfire.
ChiGoose Posted February 10 Posted February 10 22 minutes ago, Doc said: Sorry but it's not just about giving it back as soon as you're asked: it's about knowingly possessing it and worse yet, sharing it. All this time you've been trying to convince yourself that it was "spillage" by his underlings and he never knew it was there (even though it was in his garage in plain sight). That's been proven to be false. And we also learned he showed it to his biographer. I know it sucks when the law isn’t what you think it should be. The relevant laws were clearly written for the 3+ million people who have security clearance as part of their regular jobs and not for the much smaller number of elected officials who will have access to government documents. If you think the laws should be tightened up to account for the issues we’ve seen from Reagan, Pence, Biden, and Trump, then I would wholly agree. But as the laws currently stand, Trump’s refusal to return the documents and his obstruction is the thing that puts him in legal jeopardy while the rest will avoid prosecution.
Doc Posted February 10 Posted February 10 15 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: I know it sucks when the law isn’t what you think it should be. The relevant laws were clearly written for the 3+ million people who have security clearance as part of their regular jobs and not for the much smaller number of elected officials who will have access to government documents. If you think the laws should be tightened up to account for the issues we’ve seen from Reagan, Pence, Biden, and Trump, then I would wholly agree. But as the laws currently stand, Trump’s refusal to return the documents and his obstruction is the thing that puts him in legal jeopardy while the rest will avoid prosecution. The law is that you cannot take/possess classified material, period. You previously tried to claim that Joke didn't know he had any and therefore was covered because once he learned he had it, he gave it back, unlike Trump who knew he had it and didn't give it back. Now we know he knew he had it since at least 2017...and never gave it back. Not only that, he also showed it to someone without clearance to view it. You think that didn't break any laws? But again, I'm not advocating being petty like the Dems are and going after Joke legally. I'm saying Dems should say "uncle" and tighten up the laws going forward. Because the court of public opinion is not on their side anymore.
ChiGoose Posted February 10 Posted February 10 48 minutes ago, Doc said: The law is that you cannot take/possess classified material, period. You previously tried to claim that Joke didn't know he had any and therefore was covered because once he learned he had it, he gave it back, unlike Trump who knew he had it and didn't give it back. Now we know he knew he had it since at least 2017...and never gave it back. Not only that, he also showed it to someone without clearance to view it. You think that didn't break any laws? But again, I'm not advocating being petty like the Dems are and going after Joke legally. I'm saying Dems should say "uncle" and tighten up the laws going forward. Because the court of public opinion is not on their side anymore. Me: They aren’t going to be able to prove intent Hur: We’re not able to prove intent It’s right there in the report. It’s not that confusing.
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