7 Bills players that are trending up and down (per Joe B)

[Southern_Bills]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah..........but if it takes Elam 8 weeks to not be a liability...........and by then White, Jackson and Johnson are all good.........then it would have negated the value of drafting Elam for need.    Which is almost always the problem with drafting for need..........the player is rarely ready to step into an uncontested or lightly contested situation and play that large of a role on a contending team.

 

Best scenario is to fill your needs in UFA or within...........and then if you draft a player you hope can start,  they have a veteran that they have to compete with for the job.    That puts the focus where it belongs......competing against an opponent rather than themselves.  

 

I'll be honest, if anyone thought Elam was an answer in week 1 they are fools or lied to themselves. 

 

No one legitimately felt like he would be covering Cooper Kupp on the Thursday night opener, or at least I hope not.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Eh… I think knew they were going CB and they were sure of it since February… they wanted to make sure they got one hence the reason they traded up with all of them coming off the board…

There were still good corners on the board when they traded up.  Many had 1st rd grades on Andrew Booth and Kyler Gordon.   Many saw Dax Hill as a 1st rd corner.  Some had Mccreary.  
 

look at the non corners drafted after Elam.  Who could we have taken?  We weren’t taking jermaine Johnson or Karlaftis after how we spent on DL.  Wyatt is a 3T like Ed, that wasn’t happening.  We weren’t taking a S LB, or C imo, due to positional value.  Breece Hall?  Poor positional value.  
 

Other than another CB, Watson, Pickens and Tyler Smith were to only guys I could’ve seen as our pick.  
 

Or we could’ve went with Dane Jackson and cheap free agents with hopes Tre’Davious made it back after watching our corners get torched relentlessly in season ending losses to KC 2 years in a row.  Offense didn’t end our season.  Our defense and coaching did. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by NewEra

[BADOLBILZ]

14 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Basham was a steal in the 2nd, get ready for him to prove it this year.

 

Adding premium players at CB is exactly what a team like Buffalo can afford to do, at this point of their roster construction.  Especially against the plethora of talented Afc offenses.  Cincy/Kc/Chargers/Raiders/Broncos/Dolphins all have stacked offense skill position groups and/or Qbs.  We will likely match up with one of these teams in the playoffs.  Then there are the Colts/Titans/Pats style offenses, where physicality and being able to stop the run is more critical (hence the Jones/Settle/Phillips/Shaq signings and overall rebuild of DL).  We are much better equipped to not have 42 points dropped on us in the playoffs/regular season

 

I hope you are right........he turns 25 this season.......it's reasonable to expect a player at that age already to hit his stride as a pro sooner than a guy who is drafted at 20-21.    I just didn't see the dynamic pass rush ability at Wake when the other draftable talents he was playing against were typically 2-3 years younger.

 

I don't believe in the "exactly what a team like this can afford to do" notion of the draft.   

 

To me.........the draft is an ongoing process of roster strengthening/building and not just an annual event to address needs...........particularly the early rounds.

 

A couple seasons ago KC took Clyde Edwards Helaire in round 1 because "the could afford to"............you can bet they wish they had that one back. 

 

The difference between good and bad rosters in the NFL is not nearly as significant as some fans think.   You can never afford to treat a pick like it's a luxury.........you always gotta' be looking for difference makers........players who can win matchups.

 

Whether Elam is that or not is questionable.   He's an athletic man corner..........but he hasn't played much zone.   He's tall.......but he's also short armed.   He has a rep as a bad run support guy.   He doesn't check all the boxes like Tre White did coming into this system.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Southern_Bills said:

 

I'll be honest, if anyone thought Elam was an answer in week 1 they are fools or lied to themselves. 

 

No one legitimately felt like he would be covering Cooper Kupp on the Thursday night opener, or at least I hope not.

 

I'm sure some people did feel that way............expectations are always high for 1st round picks..........and each prior 1st rounder under Beane has been a day 1 starter.

 

But Kupp is primarily a slot receiver.    Elam was never likely to be starting in the slot.  

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Eh… I think knew they were going CB and they were sure of it since February… they wanted to make sure they got one hence the reason they traded up with all of them coming off the board…

 

 

Do people actually have a straight face when they are saying Elam and Cook were just BPA's they would have taken if it weren't a perceived "need"?

 

They were players at positions they wanted to address first........and what they considered the BPA's at those positions second.

 

Like when they "need(ed) a tackle" when they traded up for Cody Ford.    Or the two other RB's they selected early since 2019.  

 

The better a roster gets the more obvious it is when players are selected for need...........the problem is maintaining the same or close to the same level of talent once you've found and paid the QB.

[RyanC883]

If Elam is not looking ready, I wonder if he starts week 1?   Is Benford looking better? 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

A couple seasons ago KC took Clyde Edwards Helaire in round 1 because "the could afford to"............you can bet they wish they had that one back. 

I knew we'd be on the same page with this. Mahomes wishes he had Tee Higgins as WR1 going into next year instead of Doo-Doo.

 

The NFL changes fast. Rosters turn over FAST.  3 years ago no one would have predicted Tyreek would be a Dolphin.  Teams have to be smart. 3 top 3 round picks in 4 years on RB is NOT SMART.

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

There were still good corners on the board when they traded up.  Many had 1st rd grades on Andrew Booth and Kyler Gordon.   Many saw Dax Hill as a 1st rd corner.  Some had Mccreary.  
 

look at the non corners drafted after Elam.  Who could we have taken?  We weren’t taking jermaine Johnson or Karlaftis after how we spent on DL.  Wyatt is a 3T like Ed, that wasn’t happening.  We weren’t taking a S LB, or C imo, due to positional value.  Breece Hall?  Poor positional value.  
 

Other than another CB, Watson, Pickens and Tyler Smith were to only guys I could’ve seen as our pick.  
 

Or we could’ve went with Dane Jackson and cheap free agents with hopes Tre’Davious made it back after watching our corners get torched relentlessly in season ending losses to KC 2 years in a row.  Offense didn’t end our season.  Our defense and coaching did. 

I mean, let's wait and see Elam play. Jamarr Chase was dropping the ball all of TC and preseason last year and he did okay.

[RyanC883]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I hope you are right........he turns 25 this season.......it's reasonable to expect a player at that age already to hit his stride as a pro sooner than a guy who is drafted at 20-21.    I just didn't see the dynamic pass rush ability at Wake when the other draftable talents he was playing against were typically 2-3 years younger.

 

I don't believe in the "exactly what a team like this can afford to do" notion of the draft.   

 

To me.........the draft is an ongoing process of roster strengthening/building and not just an annual event to address needs...........particularly the early rounds.

 

A couple seasons ago KC took Clyde Edwards Helaire in round 1 because "the could afford to"............you can bet they wish they had that one back. 

 

The difference between good and bad rosters in the NFL is not nearly as significant as some fans think.   You can never afford to treat a pick like it's a luxury.........you always gotta' be looking for difference makers........players who can win matchups.

 

Whether Elam is that or not is questionable.   He's an athletic man corner..........but he hasn't played much zone.   He's tall.......but he's also short armed.   He has a rep as a bad run support guy.   He doesn't check all the boxes like Tre White did coming into this system.

basham was a horrid pick, namely because he looks league average and Humphrey is tan all-pro, and we could use those on the OL.  

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

So your point is that Shakir is going to be the next Diggs?

 

I’ll take that bet lmao

Many of them do not. 
 

Fifth round is day 3. Not mid round.

 

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Do you consider a 2nd rd pick to be mid round?  By your comment you consider rd 2 and 3 picks mid round. I agree about rd 3.  Not round 2.  
 

I consider a mid round pick any pick not in the first 2 rounds or the last 2 rounds.  The middle rounds of the draft….. not the middle day….. the middle rounds 

Again……do you consider the 2nd rd a mid round pick?  Or is round 3 the only mid round pick?  

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I knew we'd be on the same page with this. Mahomes wishes he had Tee Higgins as WR1 going into next year instead of Doo-Doo.

 

The NFL changes fast. Rosters turn over FAST.  3 years ago no one would have predicted Tyreek would be a Dolphin.  Teams have to be smart. 3 top 3 round picks in 4 years on RB is NOT SMART.

I mean, let's wait and see Elam play. Jamarr Chase was dropping the ball all of TC and preseason last year and he did okay.

Not sure what this has to do with my post.  I didn’t say anything bad about Elam in this post did I?  
 

my point was, they traded up for the last player they had with a first rd grade….which also happened to be a position of need.   If they only wanted a cb, there were still other graded cbs available.  They didn’t have to trade up, but they wanted this player…..not JUST a CB.  If Elam was gone and there weren’t any other 1st rd graded players left, I’m not convinced that they would’ve taken their highest rated  corner.  Maybe….. maybe not.  We’ll never know.  But Scott knows, I’m sure 

[Big Blitz]

11 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

basham was a horrid pick, namely because he looks league average and Humphrey is tan all-pro, and we could use those on the OL.  

 

 

Agreed and that's the guy that should have been the pick.  Now Mahomes has an all pro Center (2nd most important position on offense don't @ me) for the next decade.  

 

This team has done most everything extraordinary well - except the OG position.  It is just bizarre how they've missed here.  

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Do people actually have a straight face when they are saying Elam and Cook were just BPA's they would have taken if it weren't a perceived "need"?

 

They were players at positions they wanted to address first........and what they considered the BPA's at those positions second.

 

Like when they "need(ed) a tackle" when they traded up for Cody Ford.    Or the two other RB's they selected early since 2019.  

 

The better a roster gets the more obvious it is when players are selected for need...........the problem is maintaining the same or close to the same level of talent once you've found and paid the QB.

Trading up or back to align your draft value chart to the position you are looking to draft is a much more viable strategy than selecting the next guy on your position list when the guy you really wanted gets snagged before your pick. See: Travaris Tillman after Carolina nabbed Deon Grant. I think Belichick also did it once to the prior FO but I forget the player.

[Big Blitz]

7 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Agreed and that's the guy that should have been the pick.  Now Mahomes has an all pro Center (2nd most important position on offense don't @ me) for the next decade.  

 

This team has done most everything extraordinary well - except the OG position.  It is just bizarre how they've missed here.  

 

 

Bills starting Guards since the 2018 season:

 

Vlad Ducasse 

John Miller (inherited both from Rex)

Spain

Ford

Long

Ike

Groy

Winters

Feliciano 

Williams (Brown pushed him inside)

Bates

[Doc]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

basham was a horrid pick, namely because he looks league average and Humphrey is tan all-pro, and we could use those on the OL.  

 

He was also BPA and (not need) according to the Bills. 

 

 

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

I thought pass rush was more the issue against KC than corner play… and you are right nobody knows, but I think it was rather obvious their board was defensive heavy and they were aiming for a CB considering their off-season with the Wallace departure and Tre White recovering from the ACL tear… but all good, as McD would say, “you can find receivers later in the draft” 😉😘

 

The Bills beat the Chefs earlier in the season with White and the same pass rush.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I thought pass rush was more the issue against KC than corner play… and you are right nobody knows, but I think it was rather obvious their board was defensive heavy and they were aiming for a CB considering their off-season with the Wallace departure and Tre White recovering from the ACL tear… but all good, as McD would say, “you can find receivers later in the draft” 😉😘

Yes….and we addressed the pass rush.
 

We didn’t have any corners with any speed.  We had to play off because they were afraid of getting beat deep.  

 

we didn’t have any corners with any height.
 

we added one with both.   

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Ok… Corners with any height? What?… they got destroyed by Hill, you think Elam or any rookie will change that? Thats not really my point though. I believe CB was going to be the first round pick regardless of what Beane says, since February…. and their off-season leading up the draft suggested as much. 

The Titans also ***** destroyed them earlier in the season… The Chiefs were clearly struggling early on in the season. 

Yeah….. we didn’t have corners with any height or speed…… elam has both height and speed.  

 

it’s not like Tyreek hill is the only player in the league we’re trying to defend…..  you can talk about the context of the conversation….but McB drafted in the context of the next 5-10 years.  They added a type of corner that we didn’t have. One with height, speed and the ability to play press man.  They have enough confidence in their coaching and scheme where they can teach the press man corner how to play their zone.  
 

he wasn’t my favorite pick…..I wanted booth.  But I understand why they drafted him.  Physically and mentally, he’s a fit.  

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The Titans also ***** destroyed them earlier in the season… The Chiefs were clearly struggling early on in the season. 

 

It still took them into OT to win the game.  Tre would have absolutely made at least a 1 point difference in regulation. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

It still took them into OT to win the game.  Tre would have absolutely made at least a 1 point difference in regulation. 

 

Doesn't work that way, obviously.

 

White played in the AFCCG the year prior and they were blown out by halftime.

 

Also, the Chiefs played that divisional game without their best DB(Tyrann Mathieu) as well.

 

 

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Doesn't work that way, obviously.

 

White played in the AFCCG the year prior and they were blown out by halftime.

 

Also, the Chiefs played that divisional game without their best DB(Tyrann Mathieu) as well.

 

It doesn't work like that either, obviously.  They beat the Chiefs with Mathieu earlier in the season.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Doc
spelling

[Dirtbag]

i dont know who joe b is, but did joe b seriously qualify his comment thusly:

 

 

Players who are not trending downward but need to show more and have yet to impress:

 

i thought joe b was gonna tell us about players how were trending up and down. joe b is clearly being mealy-mouthed here. either players are trending up or they're trending down. they cant not be trending down, but need to show more to impress.

 

come on, joe b, be better, joe b!

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Ralonzo said:

Trading up or back to align your draft value chart to the position you are looking to draft is a much more viable strategy than selecting the next guy on your position list when the guy you really wanted gets snagged before your pick. See: Travaris Tillman after Carolina nabbed Deon Grant. I think Belichick also did it once to the prior FO but I forget the player.

 

 

I'm not all-in on that approach.

 

Moving up for a franchise QB?  Sure.   

 

Moving up for the 5th CB on the board in round 1 when you play a system that doesn't put that players proven strengths(man coverage) to ideal use?  Eh.

 

And trading back and back and back to get a RB in round 2 is still picking a RB in round 2.    People love them some runnin' bax but they impact fantasy football a lot more than actual game results.   A lot of folks can't wrap their heads around it but throwing the ball to an actual WR produces more in the long run than dumping it off to even the best receiving RB.  And when the playoffs arrive the LOS gets a lot more hotly contested and if you are wedded to running the ball because you want to use your star RB.......there is a good chance you are going home early.    Ask the Saints how having to feed Alvin Kamara in the playoffs worked out.

 

The Cody Ford trade-up raises the important question of whether NEED itself is clouding how the board is stacked in the first place.   How does Cody Ford.........with glaring athletic concerns.........end up in the Bills top 40 overall prospects?   If you aren't thinking about needing a player at a certain position..........maybe you grade  players more objectively.