Albert Breer (MMQB) on the Dan Patrick Show

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, Thurm, to split hairs a little, I never thought there was anything wrong with his mechanics or his fundamentals.    He just needed to get his game under control.   He needed some discipline in his game.

 

I believe that ordinarily when someone says that a guy's mechanics are bad, that means that when he's throwing in a controlled environment, something is wrong.   It's easier to talk about in the case of a baseball pitcher.   He stands on the mound, winds up, or goes to the stretch, and delivers the ball.  All the circumstances are in his control.   If he consistently throws the ball poorly in that controlled environment, sometimes you can see that he has a mechanical problem - that is, over and over, he throws it the same way, and that way is not the optimal motion.  

 

Allen didn't have that problem.   In an ordinary environment, he threw the ball with accuracy, pace or not, distance or not.   He was mechanically sound.    His problem was that he wasn't mechanically consistent, especially if he was on the move or hurried.  When he made a bad throw, yes, sometimes the mechanics were wrong, but that wasn't because he had a mechanical problem.  It was because he had a consistency problem, or a problem under pressure.   He needed to get his game under control so that he could be more consistent throwing the ball the way he already knew how.  

 

Sure, Palmer and the Bills have tinkered with Allen's mechanics from year to year, but coaches tinker with the mechanics of skill position players all the time.   Diggs is still working on his mechanics.   Brady worked on his mechanics year after year.    When they came into the league, they both had solid mechanics that they could build on, and the same is true for Allen.  Is Allen mechanically better than he was?  Sure, but so is Diggs.  Diggs is a much, much better receiver today than when he came out of Maryland.  As a rookie, he had 52 catches, 720 yards, four touchdowns, but no one was saying he had a problem with his mechanics.   Diggs had natural talent that he had to refine to become who he is.   The same is true for Allen.  

 

 

 

You may have thought there was anything wrong with his mechanics or his fundamentals, Shaw. Thing is, Josh himself did. Both he and his QB coach, Jordan Palmer, very publicly talked about mechanics changes he needed to make and was making. They talked early about standing with his feet too far apart, later about the fact that he was often stepping with his front foot in the wrong way, which essentially froze his hips and meant he was using only his upper body in the throw. They talked about needing to use his body differently when he needed to take something off the shorter throws and lobs, and later still about twisting his hips as part of the motion. All publicly, all on video, many times. Then after his third year you heard nothing more about physical mechanics and it was all about what he needed to think differently about.

 

As I go through your post I lose track of what you're saying. You start out saying he had no mechanical problems. Then in the last paragraph you talk about his mechanical problems. Yeah, the mechanical problems you talk about in the last paragraph are exactly the mechanical problems people talk about when they say that it's huge for QBs and can destroy or create accuracy.

 

Allen had major mechanical problems early on. And he wasn't consistently accurate. As he fixed those, he got much more consistently accurate, and the two are absolutely related in terms of cause and effect.

 

Yes, Diggs also works on fundamentals and mechanics. All players do. Because bad fundamentals - and Josh had them - mean bad effects on your play, and good fundamentals mean you can play better and better access your body's full potential. Allen hadn't gone through the camp circuit that most highly ranked young high school and college QBs go through where they get coached on fundamentals and mechanics among other things. Allen hadn't been invited to those camps. And it showed in his game.

 

Can't disagree that he needed to get his game under control, or that he needed discipline. He did. But he also, without question, needed to make and successfully made mechanical and fundamental changes to the way he physically threw the ball. Several of those changes contributed greatly to his getting his game under control.

 

Your thoughts about baseball pitchers and how they can more easily groove their mechanics are very fair for baseball and pitchers. But there isn't the slightest question that QBs also have fundamentals and mechanics that can improve their game or greatly degrade it. You yourself point that out talking about Brady.

 

Allen absolutely did have that problem. Again, lots of video out there with Palmer talking about the mechanical changes he and Josh were working on.

 

"Diggs had natural talent that he had to refine to become who he is," you say. Yeah, without question. And part of that refinement was learning and honing his mechanics. You're precisely right that the same was true for Allen.

[CSBill]

Good discussion. I'll offer my perspective. I believe that for all the people mentioned in this conversation (Brady, Diggs, Allen, etc.), there are three things they all have/do that sets them apart:

 

1 - Natural, God-given athletic talent: This takes different forms, speed, strength, gifted movement ability, and so on. But they seek to get the most out of what they have. (I do too, but I am not starting in the same place they are.)

2 - They are smart and teachable: That is, they are always studying and working to improve their craft. They work hard at getting better, whether that be their mechanics, their knowledge of the game, nuanced skill development, or whatever it takes. They receive good information (Coaching) and seek to improve (master it) where they can. They are "smart" from an athletic sense; that is, they can receive, process, and implement improvement knowledge far better than the average person.

3 - Competitive Passion: They are never satisfied, they always want more, they want to get better, they are driven and will never be outworked. It's the Grit, Drive, Passion, Obsession, etc., to work hard and be better than their competition.

 

There maybe better labels or descriptions -- and I do realize it is simplistic to say it is just these three things (for example, they also were born into environments that afford them the opportunity to take advantage of these three qualities). But I believe the combination above it what sets the great ones apart. Yes, others have these -- to some degree, all professional athletes do -- but they have these above and beyond their peers.

 

I am grateful our QB is a part of this conversation. I think of all the years we have endured without someone we can discuss in this type of conversation.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by CSBill

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

You may have thought there was anything wrong with his mechanics or his fundamentals, Shaw. Thing is, Josh himself did. Both he and his QB coach, Jordan Palmer, very publicly talked about mechanics changes he needed to make and was making. They talked early about standing with his feet too far apart, later about the fact that he was often stepping with his front foot in the wrong way, which essentially froze his hips and meant he was using only his upper body in the throw. They talked about needing to use his body differently when he needed to take something off the shorter throws and lobs, and later still about twisting his hips as part of the motion. All publicly, all on video, many times. Then after his third year you heard nothing more about physical mechanics and it was all about what he needed to think differently about.

 

As I go through your post I lose track of what you're saying. You start out saying he had no mechanical problems. Then in the last paragraph you talk about his mechanical problems. Yeah, the mechanical problems you talk about in the last paragraph are exactly the mechanical problems people talk about when they say that it's huge for QBs and can destroy or create accuracy.

 

Allen had major mechanical problems early on. And he wasn't consistently accurate. As he fixed those, he got much more consistently accurate, and the two are absolutely related in terms of cause and effect.

 

Yes, Diggs also works on fundamentals and mechanics. All players do. Because bad fundamentals - and Josh had them - mean bad effects on your play, and good fundamentals mean you can play better and better access your body's full potential. Allen hadn't gone through the camp circuit that most highly ranked young high school and college QBs go through where they get coached on fundamentals and mechanics among other things. Allen hadn't been invited to those camps. And it showed in his game.

 

Can't disagree that he needed to get his game under control, or that he needed discipline. He did. But he also, without question, needed to make and successfully made mechanical and fundamental changes to the way he physically threw the ball. Several of those changes contributed greatly to his getting his game under control.

 

Your thoughts about baseball pitchers and how they can more easily groove their mechanics are very fair for baseball and pitchers. But there isn't the slightest question that QBs also have fundamentals and mechanics that can improve their game or greatly degrade it. You yourself point that out talking about Brady.

 

Allen absolutely did have that problem. Again, lots of video out there with Palmer talking about the mechanical changes he and Josh were working on.

 

"Diggs had natural talent that he had to refine to become who he is," you say. Yeah, without question. And part of that refinement was learning and honing his mechanics. You're precisely right that the same was true for Allen.

As I said, I'm splitting hairs.   What I said is that Allen had a consistency problem, not a mechanical problem.  Someone with mechanical problems consistently throws the ball wrong, because his mechanics get in the way.  Allen didn't consistently throw the ball wrong. Yes, they worked on his mechanics, and they will throughout his career, like every thrower does.   Pro golfers have excellent swings, but they're always working on their mechanics.   Pitchers are always working on their mechanics.  

 

Allen's problem was, I believe, that although he was perfectly able to throw the ball mechanically correctly, and he did it often, he didn't do it consistently.   He didn't always set up well, he didn't always turn properly.  What Palmer did primarily (again, this is what I believe) is to get Allen to focus on doing consistently the things he did naturally.    

 

When I think about Allen and Brady, for example, I think early in his career Brady threw accurately but he couldn't throw accurately deep.  Brady did a lot of work on his throwing to improve his deep ball, and later in his career he got good at it.   Allen, on the other hand, could throw every pass the day he stepped on a pro football field.   He didn't need to fix his mechanics to be able throw accurately; he just needed to be more focused on his throwing motion to do it more accurately.   Yes, I'm sure they tinkering with a lot of things, like how far apart his feet were and arm angles and all that, but that really was training Allen to be more consistent - to do the things he already did, just do them more regularly.  

 

What I think happened is that the press got really caught up in, and got wrong, the thing posters here have talked about a lot - the difference between accuracy and completion percentage.   The media mercilessly pounded the idea, through the draft and then for Allen's first couple of years with the Bills, that he wasn't an accurate thrower, and that was always backed up by one thing:  completion percentage.    Some people here said that, too, but a lot of people here, including you, get the distinction.  The media didn't get the distinction at all, so what fans heard through those years was that Allen had to improve his accuracy.   It wasn't true.   What he had to do was improve his completion percentage, and he did that.   He did that by getting better at his decision making, and by getting more consistent in how he threw the ball. 

 

One last example.   What's the simplest measure of accuracy?  Hang a tire on a rope, stand 20 yards away, or 30 yards away, and throw the ball through the tire.   That's accuracy.  I can't say that I've seen data about QBs that measures that, but I am sure that if you tested the first round picks, coming out of college, over the last 10 or 20 years, Allen would have been in the top 25%.   He's a great natural thrower and a great natural athlete, and standing on a field throwing at a target is taking candy from a baby for him.   He was always accurate; he wasn't always consistent.   

 

Splitting hairs.

 

 

[ganesh]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:15 PM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I totally understand the urge to jump in and protect Allen, and it's true that the supporting cast wasn't good.

 

But no, Brady would not have looked like garbage. And part of the problem is that Allen's throwing just didn't look good most of the time. You could see he was competitive as hell, you could see he was a terrific athlete, but he absolutely needed to get a ton better at throwing the ball accurately in a consistent manner.

 

Thing is, he did.

 

He had already improved visibly and obviously through the draft process, but his fundamentals and his mechanics still needed a lot of work during that first year. And people are right when they say that it's fairly rare to make major improvements in accuracy and in mechanics. It's absolutely not impossible, and I among many others was screaming that at the time. But if his mechanics and the consistency of his accuracy had not improved vastly, he might not have made it. It was not at all a sure thing.

 

But the thing that sets Allen apart is his ability to change whatever part of his game he aims at not just on a surface level but to make deep major improvements with time. He did that, and it has made all the difference.

 

 

so well put.  And the new aspect that he is continuing to learn and get better is to see the field and take decisions.  Last year, in the games we won he took what the defense gave him and dove down the field...The first TD against the Patriots in the playoffs is a shining example.  It is a maturation process and he has adapted and adopted it.  Go BIlls!

[Mike in Horseheads]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

As I said, I'm splitting hairs.   What I said is that Allen had a consistency problem, not a mechanical problem.  Someone with mechanical problems consistently throws the ball wrong, because his mechanics get in the way.  Allen didn't consistently throw the ball wrong. Yes, they worked on his mechanics, and they will throughout his career, like every thrower does.   Pro golfers have excellent swings, but they're always working on their mechanics.   Pitchers are always working on their mechanics.  

 

Allen's problem was, I believe, that although he was perfectly able to throw the ball mechanically correctly, and he did it often, he didn't do it consistently.   He didn't always set up well, he didn't always turn properly.  What Palmer did primarily (again, this is what I believe) is to get Allen to focus on doing consistently the things he did naturally.    

 

When I think about Allen and Brady, for example, I think early in his career Brady threw accurately but he couldn't throw accurately deep.  Brady did a lot of work on his throwing to improve his deep ball, and later in his career he got good at it.   Allen, on the other hand, could throw every pass the day he stepped on a pro football field.   He didn't need to fix his mechanics to be able throw accurately; he just needed to be more focused on his throwing motion to do it more accurately.   Yes, I'm sure they tinkering with a lot of things, like how far apart his feet were and arm angles and all that, but that really was training Allen to be more consistent - to do the things he already did, just do them more regularly.  

 

What I think happened is that the press got really caught up in, and got wrong, the thing posters here have talked about a lot - the difference between accuracy and completion percentage.   The media mercilessly pounded the idea, through the draft and then for Allen's first couple of years with the Bills, that he wasn't an accurate thrower, and that was always backed up by one thing:  completion percentage.    Some people here said that, too, but a lot of people here, including you, get the distinction.  The media didn't get the distinction at all, so what fans heard through those years was that Allen had to improve his accuracy.   It wasn't true.   What he had to do was improve his completion percentage, and he did that.   He did that by getting better at his decision making, and by getting more consistent in how he threw the ball. 

 

One last example.   What's the simplest measure of accuracy?  Hang a tire on a rope, stand 20 yards away, or 30 yards away, and throw the ball through the tire.   That's accuracy.  I can't say that I've seen data about QBs that measures that, but I am sure that if you tested the first round picks, coming out of college, over the last 10 or 20 years, Allen would have been in the top 25%.   He's a great natural thrower and a great natural athlete, and standing on a field throwing at a target is taking candy from a baby for him.   He was always accurate; he wasn't always consistent.   

 

Splitting hairs.

 

 

Nice manisfesto

[Thurman#1]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:20 AM, Shaw66 said:

As I said, I'm splitting hairs.   What I said is that Allen had a consistency problem, not a mechanical problem.  Someone with mechanical problems consistently throws the ball wrong, because his mechanics get in the way.  Allen didn't consistently throw the ball wrong. Yes, they worked on his mechanics, and they will throughout his career, like every thrower does.   Pro golfers have excellent swings, but they're always working on their mechanics.   Pitchers are always working on their mechanics.  

 

Allen's problem was, I believe, that although he was perfectly able to throw the ball mechanically correctly, and he did it often, he didn't do it consistently.   He didn't always set up well, he didn't always turn properly.  What Palmer did primarily (again, this is what I believe) is to get Allen to focus on doing consistently the things he did naturally.    

 

When I think about Allen and Brady, for example, I think early in his career Brady threw accurately but he couldn't throw accurately deep.  Brady did a lot of work on his throwing to improve his deep ball, and later in his career he got good at it.   Allen, on the other hand, could throw every pass the day he stepped on a pro football field.   He didn't need to fix his mechanics to be able throw accurately; he just needed to be more focused on his throwing motion to do it more accurately.   Yes, I'm sure they tinkering with a lot of things, like how far apart his feet were and arm angles and all that, but that really was training Allen to be more consistent - to do the things he already did, just do them more regularly.  

 

What I think happened is that the press got really caught up in, and got wrong, the thing posters here have talked about a lot - the difference between accuracy and completion percentage.   The media mercilessly pounded the idea, through the draft and then for Allen's first couple of years with the Bills, that he wasn't an accurate thrower, and that was always backed up by one thing:  completion percentage.    Some people here said that, too, but a lot of people here, including you, get the distinction.  The media didn't get the distinction at all, so what fans heard through those years was that Allen had to improve his accuracy.   It wasn't true.   What he had to do was improve his completion percentage, and he did that.   He did that by getting better at his decision making, and by getting more consistent in how he threw the ball. 

 

One last example.   What's the simplest measure of accuracy?  Hang a tire on a rope, stand 20 yards away, or 30 yards away, and throw the ball through the tire.   That's accuracy.  I can't say that I've seen data about QBs that measures that, but I am sure that if you tested the first round picks, coming out of college, over the last 10 or 20 years, Allen would have been in the top 25%.   He's a great natural thrower and a great natural athlete, and standing on a field throwing at a target is taking candy from a baby for him.   He was always accurate; he wasn't always consistent.   

 

Splitting hairs.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, he had a consistency problem. A very great deal of which was caused by his mechanical problems.

 

Josh himself has gone on and on about how learning those mechanical things has made him both better and more consistent.

 

The media did indeed go on about his problems with accuracy, but while they certainly did mention completion percentage as ONE of the things that backed it up, that wasn't all. It just wasn't. It was among other things throw after throw after throw where he would make an insane completion into the tiniest of windows followed immediately by another where he would throw to a guy who was wide open and overthrow him by five feet or bounce it three feet short of him. If you can't throw the ball to where it's supposed to be with consistency, you're not accurate. It doesn't matter whether you want to call it accuracy or consistency, guys who have this problem don't make it in the league.

 

Josh fixed the problem by fixing his mechanics and fundamentals over the next two years.

 

Throwing a ball through a tire isn't any kind of measure of accuracy in a football game. It's a measure of accuracy in throwing a football through a tire. Nobody's rushing you when you throw it through a tire. Tires aren't moving. You don't have to make two or three reads before you throw to a tire. Nobody's guarding them. Football will lay bare mechanical problems in a way that just hitting a target can't.

 

He was not a great natural thrower. He was a guy with the potential to become a great thrower. He was a guy who had the body and the brain necessary to become a great thrower, with a ton of improvement and adjustment. He was a guy who was able to become a great thrower with a ton of work at improving his mechanics and fundamentals.

 

He would tell you the same.

[Thurman#1]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:57 AM, ganesh said:

so well put.  And the new aspect that he is continuing to learn and get better is to see the field and take decisions.  Last year, in the games we won he took what the defense gave him and dove down the field...The first TD against the Patriots in the playoffs is a shining example.  It is a maturation process and he has adapted and adopted it.  Go BIlls!

 

 

This is the thing that has me in awe of Josh.

 

He sees an area where he has to improve (doubtless with lots of consultation and advice but he knows good advice from bad and doesn't have an ego about constructive criticism), he figures out an efficient and effective way to make the improvement and he gets it done.

 

It sounds so very easy, but so very few people manage it consistently, and even fewer do it as well as Josh does.

 

Every year he picks a couple of areas where he wants to improve, and then the next year we see the changes on the field.

[Orlando Buffalo]

On 8/3/2022 at 12:01 PM, BUFFALOTONE said:

Its not one thing, they are consistently wrong in their takes. And yes I want accountability for being piss poor at your job. 

Their job is not to be right, it is to get people to watch. If they are correct it helps the real job but better be interesting than correct in their world.

[BigDingus]

When he said "huge credit to Josh Allen," I think he was highlighting something I think many fans tend to overlook.

 

Josh's success was NOT a guarantee. Josh was NOT "ready to go" out of college. The NFL does NOT have a long list of "project" QB's drafted on physical gifts who were then properly developed & became stars.

 

Too often I see fans say things like "us REAL Josh Allen fans saw he was great from day 1, he just didn't have the surrounding talent!" or "we Bills fans knew he was great from the start, it was the media who only looked at the numbers that doubted him!" 

 

That's nice and all, but it unintentionally downplays Josh's role in his own stardom & the work he's put in to overcome the odds. 

 

*********

 

McDermott was a defense guy & still green HC. Beane was on his first draft. The Bills had a long history of failure developing QB's or even give them proper time & support. Evaluating QB talent wasn't their strong suit either, just look at their faith in not only drafting Peterman, but feeling so confident in him they didn't sign a single veteran on the roster, anointed him the starter over Josh & went into week 1 with only 2 QB's with a combined 2 games of starting experience between them to open.

 

They genuinely believed he was going to be good enough to play out the season while Josh sat & developed, but were so wrong he couldn't make it through the first game without being benched. Combine that with a starting group of WR's who would be hard pressed to make an NFL roster anywhere else, & an O-line setup to make a QB's life a living hell, Josh was more likely to get KO'd after a few games than actually DEVELOP.

 

But Josh plugged away, worked closely with his QB coaches & OC, spent the offseason fixing his mechanics, spent countless hours in film studies to improve his pre & post snap reads, and worked to develop bonds with teammates that improved their own confidence in him. Then after improved team success, he didn't stop. He threw himself into more studying, more workouts, getting closer with his new star receiver, & really made the team his own. 

 

*********

 

I say this because I don't think we'll see anything like it for a long time. Other NFL teams are more likely to fail repeatedly, trying to take shots at raw, physically gifted, "potential," guys than to ever see them properly develop them into a franchise QB. Josh is a unicorn, a result of his own efforts & hard work. He wasn't guaranteed anything, & was thrust into action that almost seemed setup to fail (like many Bills QBs before him). 

 

Instead, he just worked through it & was rewarded for his efforts (and the team rewarded for their patience & support). 

 

TL;DR - Allen deserves all the credit in the world, but often he doesn't get the actual credit he specifically deserves. 

[Chandler#81]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:37 AM, TBBills said:

Has anyone ever been 100% right on everything they talk about. You are wanting them to lose there jobs b.c of one thing out of a mountain of stuff.

Normally, I agree with your takes. Not here. It’s one thing to think a player wasn’t great his 1st season, but these 2 referenced  ‘journalists’ are full  blown buttdarts! Loud, obnoxious and filled with venom. I love it when they’re exposed for not knowing JACK about the game.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Chandler#81

[Don Otreply]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:12 AM, BUFFALOTONE said:

The best is Mina Kimes, and Bomani Jones...had the two worst takes in relation to Allen and yet stood on the same hill for three years. How do these people get to keep their jobs when they are so piss poor at it.

They were paid to do it, some people just don’t feel embarrassment …