Training Camp practice 8/1

[Simon]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

....and to add to that, most of their "bad days on offense" started up front. The majority of those games they just couldn't pass protect at all. 

 

I would suggest that most of those offensive "valleys" were followed by McDermott yanking hard on Daboll's leash and the Bills offense quickly recovering the following week with a more traditional approach.

That's not something I would put down to coincidence.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I would suggest that most of those offensive "valleys" were followed by McDermott yanking hard on Daboll's leash and the Bills offense quickly recovering the following week with a more traditional approach.

That's not something I would put down to coincidence.

 

I disagree. It was overwhelmingly Oline related. There were games, especially while Dion was struggling early in the year, where it resembled the 2018 shambles. 

[Son of a K-Gun]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The league leaders normally average around 4.8 seconds. A near half a second difference matters in terms of the chance it gives your coverage team. 

Oh ya, completely understood that half a second is a big difference, but Haack was only 7/100’s better yesterday, not 5/10’s.

My kids are competitive swimmers, a sport that is measured to the one hundredth of a second…I can tell you how difficult to see the difference between 7/100’s of a second.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

Oh ya, completely understood that half a second is a big difference, but Haack was only 7/100’s better yesterday, not 5/10’s.

My kids are competitive swimmers, a sport that is measured to the one hundredth of a second…I can tell you how difficult to see the difference between 7/100’s of a second.

 

There is no world in which I want Haack to be our punter again. I didn't want it last year. So my question is less Araiza vs Haack so much as it is him vs the league. I said before the draft, before he was a Bill, before the "holding competition" was even a thing... my concern having watched a few videos of him was hang time. I believe that is why he slipped to "third punter off the board" in the draft. Line drive style punts in the NFL really hurt you. 

[finn]

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

[ddaryl]

Just now, finn said:

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

It is a bit perplexing... 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, finn said:

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

 

It is a technique thing for sure. It is about contact points. I'm sure the Bills are working hard on it with him, because he is going to win the job. 

[Ya Digg?]

2 minutes ago, finn said:

I've never punted in a game, but I'm surprised that a guy with such a strong leg can't get as much hang time as he wants. Isn't it just a matter of changing his trajectory a bit? I'm sure it's not easy, but it's not like he has a whole lot of other things to work on, besides holding. 

 

1 minute ago, ddaryl said:

It is a bit perplexing... 

 

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a technique thing for sure. It is about contact points. I'm sure the Bills are working hard on it with him, because he is going to win the job. 

Which is why you take the rookie with the considerably stronger leg. A good coach can teach technique, you can’t teach 60-70 yard punts 

[ddaryl]

6 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

 

 

Which is why you take the rookie with the considerably stronger leg. A good coach can teach technique, you can’t teach 60-70 yard punts 

It still is perplexing why his strong distance can't be quickly turned into longer hang time. To me it seems as simple as where the point of contact is. Foot meets football low you get more of a distance/low hang time punt. Foot meets the foot ball higher up and you lose some distance but gain hang time

I'm not a punter, well I did punt duties the one season I played organized football (age 12), so maybe there is more to it but it almost seems to me that's the difference between distance and hangtime. From there its all about leg strength.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by ddaryl

[stevewin]

9 hours ago, chongli said:

 

Tip: screenshot the roster at home on your computer, then paste and save it in a photo editing program like IrFanView (free and easy to use), then print this.

Yeah rather than going through all the trouble of manipulating screen shots (especially with all the space and ridiculous font used on the website roster page) would prob be more efficient to just make your own doc.  The point is it would be an easy/obvious thing for them to at least provide a printable pdf as part of the camp information

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

....and to add to that, most of their "bad days on offense" started up front. The majority of those games they just couldn't pass protect at all. 

We both know why the old adage is true;  “the game is won and lost in the trenches”…

[Don Otreply]

Frankly a fair bit of our O line issues were not just on the players but on our o line coach and the OC inability to use and scheme available personal to there advantage,  the same goes for the Defense, A lack of scheme flexibility shined several times last season on both sides of the ball, jmo. 

[SCBills]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah...........the offense almost cost Buffalo a W that day.

 

Josh Allen had one of the worst days of his career passing the ball........... 11-26 for 120 yards 0 TD's and 3 interceptions.

 

There is a misconception that the offense was great after the first half in Tampa............the Carolina and Atlanta games were actually offensive struggles despite the score.

 

 

 

I don't dispute that at all .. We didn't really get the Offense moving until Josh Allen went unleashed and starting doing everything.

 

My point being, Matt Ryan is probably in the Top 5 of QB's we faced last year, and he was surprisingly good for a warm weather/dome QB in a bad weather game, on a bad team, where their biggest weapon in Kyle Pitts went down.  I know he's from Boston College, but that was over a decade ago.  We had no business giving up 20-something points to them if he doesn't inexplicably slide at the 1/2 yard line and then taunt Poyer. 

 

Our Defense was lights out against mediocre to bad/young QB's, but was nowhere near resembling a #1 Defense when we played Brady/Mahomes pt 2 and two power run teams with Henry/Taylor. 

 

Someone pointed out that the Pats were statistically one of the better offenses we faced last year, but does anyone truly believe that?..   Mac Jones, born and raised in the South, melted down when the weather started to turn.  We got him 3x in that stretch.  

 

I believe the addition of Von, Jones, Settle, Phillips, Elam and the growth of Rousseau, Basham and Epenesa truly makes this a #1 Defense... but last year, they were elite in name only.  

[Beck Water]

https://theathletic.com/3468292/2022/08/01/bills-camp-observations-ed-oliver/?source=emp_shared_article

 

Link to Joe B's Athletic article.

 

On Brandin Bryant:

Quote

With Settle out and with the emphasis on third-and-long situations, defensive tackle Brandin Bryant had his best day of training camp by far. Bryant mostly attacked the Case Keenum-led offense and dominated one series.

Through the first three plays, Bryant had two definite would-be sacks and was breathing down Keenum’s neck on the other play, which might have been a sack in a normal circumstance. On that potential sack, Keenum dumped a pass off to running back James Cook a little after Bryant arrived. The next time Bryant was on the field against Keenum, he worked into the backfield for another sack. He could not be stopped in a six-play stretch. And his camp has been more than just a great day Monday.

 

Rookie Shakir had a rough day:

Quote

Shakir worked in as a punt returner while punters Matt Haack and Matt Araiza were going through their reps, and Shakir muffed one punt and bobbled a couple of others. From there, in team drills, one Keenum pass went through Shakir’s hands and was picked off by the defense. Shakir added another drop to the day, but this one deflected into the air and left tackle Dion Dawkins ran under it for a comical catch. Shakir’s final opportunity in team drills came on a quick throw from Allen that cornerback Dane Jackson helped break up, but Shakir got both hands on the pass. While that one wasn’t a classic drop, it’s one you’d like to see the receiver come down with in a contested situation.

 

Offensive line remains offensive with frightening apparitions like Bobby Hart at guard:

Quote

A trend at Bills camp this summer has been that many of their reserve offensive tackles have worked inside at guard to help block for Allen, and veteran Bobby Hart is the latest to do so. Hart worked in at left guard for Rodger Saffold, who has yet to practice this camp because of injured ribs. Hart’s day was a bit up and down. He put together a couple of great reps against Oliver during one-on-ones but struggled a bit more in pass blocking in team drills.

The Bills also worked in veteran Greg Van Roten at left guard as they continue to assess their offensive line depth. They might need to do some more tinkering because second-year player Tommy Doyle suffered a late-practice injury. Doyle was at right guard for injured presumed starter Ryan Bates. Bates has missed the last four practices with unspecified muscle soreness.

The offensive line has struggled to block for Allen, which may also speak to a depth problem. As the summer continues and veterans get released around the league, it may be something to monitor.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Beck Water

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree. It was overwhelmingly Oline related. There were games, especially while Dion was struggling early in the year, where it resembled the 2018 shambles. 

Going by memory here - yes, the OL wasnt great and much was masked by Allen's ability to step away from pressure, take off and complete passes while scrambling.

But there were several games where the play calling wasnt doing any favors to the OL or to Allen. The pass-run ratio was too high and the passing plays were quite predictable. It seemed that Daboll came into games with a pre-determined plan and scripted plays but did not adjust in-game when that was not working. And we dont even know how many times Allen may have covered up for poor play calling. 

So, I disagree with the "overwhelmingly OLine related" comment.  

[Shaw66]

Some of you were in a discussion yesterday or earlier today about the fact that the Bills didn't really dominate games last year.   Some complained that, despite investment in the Dline, there weren't enough sacks.  Others said the offense sputtered often.   

 

I read those comments and had two opposite reactions.  One is that pretty much all the comments were true.  The Bills had poor games last year, weak halves, and various positions, particularly oline and dline were ongoing problems.  

 

The opposite reaction is that what several of you were complaining about was simply the reality of the NFL.   It's not often that we're going to see a team go 15-2 or better, and even 14-3 is an accomplishment.   With rare exceptions, the best teams in the league have weaknesses, struggle in some games, come out flat and lose, whatever.   For years, for example, the Pats would start something like 3-4 or 4-3 and look ugly, and many of us, including me, would say the long-awaited decline of the Pats was here, only to have the Pats win the AFCE, get to the championship, often at home, and go to the Super Bowl.  There are ugly matchups on teams' schedules.   Go back and look at the Bills' regular season games in the Super Bowl era - they were up and down all year.  It's tough to win in the NFL.

 

Moreover, the reality of the draft and the salary cap is that all teams are weak at some positions.  It simply isn't possible to have quality talent at 22 positions.  Beyond that, the reality of managing a roster is that every GM makes mistakes on some players.  In hindsight, we can say it's poor talent evaluation, and that's certainly possible, but examples of poor talent evaluation are all over the league.   How about the teams that didn't draft Gabriel Davis.   Some pretty poor talent evaluation there, some might say.   But the reality is that it's hard to know which guys coming out of college are going to mature into quality players at their positions, particularly because what's asked of players at positions in the NFL keeps evolving.    

 

Managing a roster is messy and difficult, and you're probably doing a good job if you get it right on 70% of the players.   Coaching a team through a season is messy and difficult, and you're probably doing a good job if you win 70% of your games.   The real question is how do you get from 70% to 80%, and it's too simplistic to say "be better at acquiring Dline talent."

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Lost said:

 

Easy.  There were clearly a lot of games last season where they just weren't clicking.  And most of the time that was due to lack of protection from the OL.    As we see how training camp is progressing, its pretty easy to see that could be a potential problem for us again.   That being said, when the offense is clicking and the OL is healthy and doing their job, no team can stop us.   Our 7th ranked offense came from those 10 or so games where they were playing lights out.  There were 5 or 6 games where it was the defense keeping us alive.  

Now hold the phone here are we comparing ourselves to the rest of the league last year or just in fans feelings of how we should have been doing?

[BillsVet]

9 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Don't worry. EO is here with his amazing pass rush win rate and defeats rate to save the day.

 

Maybe when Oliver starts getting more than 60% of the snaps he'll approach that.  Maybe. 

 

This is another reason why McD's defensive scheme needs an overhaul because he invests high picks and UFA dollars into Dlinemen who are not on the field upwards of 40-50% of the snaps.   And that's his vision of defense, the 8-9 man DL rotation, which he'll never evaluate nor adapt.  So you get a top 10 pick at DT who in his seasons starting has a 54% and 58% snap count rate. 

[Warcodered]

Different angle from before.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Warcodered