Alphas Version 1 Positional Battle Breakdown: Slot WR - Surprise cut looming?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but he has never totaled more than 283 yards in a season.  I like him too, but the coaching staff for what ever reason hasn't felt as passionately as you about getting him on the field.  For example, despite his big game against NE, he only had 9 catches for 53 yards the rest of the 2021 season and even was a healthy scratch one game.  I am not slamming him, just pointing out the our coaches have just not gotten him on the field in any regular capacity for some reason.  

Not to start a big debate but who exactly was he supposed to steal snaps from? Beasley? Now is his best chance.

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Who do you see as the primary kick returner?  

 

If you think Tavon or Stevenson is going to win the job for example, then you are now at 4 slot players essentially in your WR group with Crowder, McKenzie, and Shakir.  

 

Not impossible by any means, just find it hard to believe they would go that heavy at a position that is likely going to be slightly less of a focal point this year than the Beasley years.  

 

So two things:

 

1. Early reports have suggested Stevenson has been lining up outside. Let's see if that lasts into the pre-season.

 

2. I don't think Tavon or Stevenson winning the kick returner job has any bearing in the 53 tbh. The Bills have shown before that they are quite happy to see returner and gunner as starting positions in their own right and make roster space for them rather than robbing from other spots. Where it does have more of an impact is on gameday actives. 

 

3. I think Isaiah is going to get the heaviest load at slot as the "starter" though as I have said before I think it will be somewhat of a jobshare.

 

[Freddie's Dead]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but he has never totaled more than 283 yards in a season.  I like him too, but the coaching staff for what ever reason hasn't felt as passionately as you about getting him on the field.  For example, despite his big game against NE, he only had 9 catches for 53 yards the rest of the 2021 season and even was a healthy scratch one game.  I am not slamming him, just pointing out the our coaches have just not gotten him on the field in any regular capacity for some reason.  

 

I'm with you Dawg, I don't get the disdain from the coaching staff.  Let's hope Dorsey uses him more.

[Alphadawg7]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So two things:

 

1. Early reports have suggested Stevenson has been lining up outside. Let's see if that lasts into the pre-season.

 

Yeah read that too, which will be something interesting to watch.  I am not sure he instills enough confidence though as a receiver to really have a shot to make this team if he doesn't win the kick returner duties out right.

 

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

2. I don't think Tavon or Stevenson winning the kick returner job has any bearing in the 53 tbh. The Bills have shown before that they are quite happy to see returner and gunner as starting positions in their own right and make roster space for them rather than robbing from other spots. Where it does have more of an impact is on gameday actives. 

 

Well I get why you say that, but there is a big factor this year where I think it matters more.  And that is we have been running thin the past 2 years at other positions affording us the ability to go heavier at positions like WR (7 last year for instance).  But those positions we were thin at, especially in our secondary, I think will see a deeper roster of guys there this year.  In fact, I think we will keep 2 more guys than last year in our CB/S groups alone.  I also think we might carry one more OL than we did last year too.  

 

So I am not sure we have the luxury this year of keeping 7 receivers again.  Which means, there is one less spot up for grabs, so if your full time KR is a WR, then I think that impacts the roster decisions this year there.  

 

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

3. I think Isaiah is going to get the heaviest load at slot as the "starter" though as I have said before I think it will be somewhat of a jobshare.

 

 

I have no problem with Mckenzie, I like him.  And I do think its a job share...but curious, what makes you confident he gets the heavier workload?  Honestly, IMO nothing the coaching staff or FO has done suggests they see him as a heavy workload player.  

Every preseason he gets buzz and this big expanded role as a weapon stuff.  Yet it never happens, they barely use him.  And last year, they used him even less despite a longer season and Beasley missing 2 games and slightly declining.  I mean he was a healthy scratch even last year, and outside the Pats game, he totaled just 9 catches for 53 yards the rest of the season.  This year after they signed him cheap, they still added Crowder, Shakir and Tavon.

 

So to me, I feel like the coaches and staff decisions this offseason and past seasons more indicates they don't see him as a feature player or heavy workload guy.  Of course, doesn't mean that cant change this year, just more commenting on what has happened thus far.  

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Mr Info]

Nice @Alphadawg7

 

Holy Schitt - it’s great having a talented team at so many positions that other teams are waiting for our castoffs.

[Aussie Joe]

Honest question… how can we decide now 4 days into camp?

 

Can we a least wait until after the first pre season game?

[Utah John]

See if any of them are injured during training camp, which makes the tradeoffs moot.

 

And if a player in another position is injured, it could be that McKenzie is trade bait for a team lacking speed/quicks.

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have no problem with Mckenzie, I like him.  And I do think its a job share...but curious, what makes you confident he gets the heavier workload?  Honestly, IMO nothing the coaching staff or FO has done suggests they see him as a heavy workload player.  

Every preseason he gets buzz and this big expanded role as a weapon stuff.  Yet it never happens, they barely use him.  And last year, they used him even less despite a longer season and Beasley missing 2 games and slightly declining.  I mean he was a healthy scratch even last year, and outside the Pats game, he totaled just 9 catches for 53 yards the rest of the season.  This year after they signed him cheap, they still added Crowder, Shakir and Tavon.

 

So to me, I feel like the coaches and staff decisions this offseason and past seasons more indicates they don't see him as a feature player or heavy workload guy.  Of course, doesn't mean that cant change this year, just more commenting on what has happened thus far.  

 

 

So the last two offseasons they let Isaiah test the market and then came back round to him when he didn't find a home in round 1 of FA. This year, they didn't do that. This year they were not willing to let him hit free agency. A new OC and they tied him in early. Then he got 1st team reps all spring. Has taken 1st team reps throughout week 1 of camp and by all reports has run with it and responded. And Josh obviously trusts him. When the Bills have put him out there Josh has thrown him the ball and in New England last year went to him with literally the division on the line. I think very likely Josh advocated for him and continues to. 

 

As for what they have brought in since... Crowder still makes sense because he has a different skillset, came very cheap and if Isaiah doesn't carry through on an increased workload he gives them a safe fallback. I think they drafted Shakir very much with an eye on the future. They needed to add a young receiver and by the time they got around to picking one he was sticking out on the board. I don't think inside / outside on the 2022 roster was a primary consideration at that point. As for Tavon I am convinced if he isn't the returner he won't be here. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

I’m so glad McKenzie is leading in votes. The guy has shined in every moment he’s been given and deserves to start. I don’t get the Crowder hype. I guess because he was a Jet and people think he was underutilized? McKenzie has better game breaking ability.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

Cook has the capability to work out of the slot and makes it unlikely that the Bills go heavy with receivers that are limited to working out of the slot.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

12 minutes ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

Cook has the capability to work out of the slot and makes it unlikely that the Bills go heavy with receivers that are limited to working out of the slot.  

Might take some time for him to be a consistent player in the offense. 

[Alphadawg7]

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So the last two offseasons they let Isaiah test the market and then came back round to him when he didn't find a home in round 1 of FA. This year, they didn't do that. This year they were not willing to let him hit free agency. A new OC and they tied him in early. Then he got 1st team reps all spring. Has taken 1st team reps throughout week 1 of camp and by all reports has run with it and responded. And Josh obviously trusts him. When the Bills have put him out there Josh has thrown him the ball and in New England last year went to him with literally the division on the line. I think very likely Josh advocated for him and continues to. 

 

Thanks and good points.  I would counter though and say they only brought McKenzie back after Beasley demanded a trade.  Prior to that, Beane said multiple times they expected Beasley to be here this season for his final year of his contract.  Once Beasley asked for a trade, Beane said he only wanted guys here who wanted to be here and decided to honor the trade request.  And of course they brought McKenzie back, but they didnt pay him much, at least not an amount that would assume it meant he was the heir apparent to Beasley.

 

My counter to the "he is running the ones" stuff is that way too much is being made of that this week while in shorts.  Crowder didnt play and Shakir is a rookie.  There was literally 0% chance anyone else was gonna start with the ones other than McKenzie this week.  So I can't put too much weight on a "default" type situation in terms of what might happen a month from now.  

 

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

As for what they have brought in since... Crowder still makes sense because he has a different skillset, came very cheap and if Isaiah doesn't carry through on an increased workload he gives them a safe fallback. I think they drafted Shakir very much with an eye on the future. They needed to add a young receiver and by the time they got around to picking one he was sticking out on the board. I don't think inside / outside on the 2022 roster was a primary consideration at that point. As for Tavon I am convinced if he isn't the returner he won't be here. 

 

I just don't think you sign Crowder (for more potentially money) if you as a staff are sold McKenzie is your primary slot player.  I don't believe they added Crowder as someone to backup McKenzie, I think he was directly brought in to compete to succeed Beasley.  

 

But hey, they havent even put pads on.  Once the bullets start flying around all this will get more clear.  I do really like McKenzie, so I am not rooting against him.  I do hope we keep all 3, I just wrote my analysis as unbiased as I could and look at it more from an overall roster perspective.  And it kept leading me to his path where I couldn't validate keeping 3 guys to primarily play out of the slot unless one was returning kicks.  But hey, that could all change once we see them in practice with pads and in preseason.  

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Rockinon]

Every WR on the roster must be able to play in the slot and on the outside. It's interesting that there are so many that excel at playing the slot. Honestly, I think the coaches are just trying to put together an offense that capitalizes on what player strengths are. No offense to your input here Alphadawg7. You do make some very good points, but i think there will be a more passes going to the slot and also the flat on screens. They are working on increasing run after catch numbers. I believe the TEs will also see an increase. But only against teams where the game plan calls for it. In other games, the outside receivers will be a bigger factor.

 

One game that comes to mind is the Colts. They were shutting down our deep passing game and also our running game. Against that team, I think there would be a decided increase in short passes to slot WRs and TEs. Maybe some screens. They say they want more run after catch, but honestly it is more about just keeping the ball moving forward in specific situations. The offense basically is diversifying and from that perspective, that is how the coaches will decide who to keep and who to cut. Having lots of guys that can play the slot and catch balls out of the backfield eliminates the possibility of having another game like that.

 

I agree that the most likely scenario is to keep 3 slot guys though. The plan going forward is to have an unstoppable passing attack even against a team like the Colts who had our number that game. Wondering if occasionally there are 2 slot guys on the field at the same time. We all ready suspect more 2 TE sets so why not. Maybe a RB leaking out along with a slot WR. The possibilities are endless and I think this is what they want. And I agree that this is a position to watch. These guys that play the slot will have to bring something else to the table beside just playing that position. They'll need to be able to run the whole route tree and/or play special teams. They'll have to be good at something besides just playing slot. Excelling at run after catch would be an eye grabber to the coaches I would think.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Not to start a big debate but who exactly was he supposed to steal snaps from? Beasley? Now is his best chance.

 

 

All good man, just an open discussion.  Im not dying on this hill kind of thing, just speculation based on just watching this battle unfold.  

 

Fair question, but is it really his best chance?  Crowder is the more accomplished player and probably more well rounded than McKenzie and Shakir is looking to be living up to all buzz about him already and has been mentioned the most often as standing out amongst this group so far.  So he went from having to compete with one guy in Beasley for snaps to possibly 2 guys now, one of which is seen as the likely future of the position in Buffalo in Shakir. 

 

I go back to last year...Beasley had a slightly down year...missed 2 games...and we had an extra 17th game.  Yet all that translated to McKenzie was less yards, less receptions, and even being a healthy scratch one game.  So in a year he should have had more opportunities last year, they used him less and had just 20 receptions and 178 yards receiving, most of which came in one game.  

 

That is why I am saying that as much as most us fans like McKenzie, as much as he seemed like by teammates, it has not translated to coaches finding consistent ways to get him involved.  Even in a year like last year where there was a little more opportunity to do so.  

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

Every WR on the roster must be able to play in the slot and on the outside. It's interesting that there are so many that excel at playing the slot. Honestly, I think the coaches are just trying to put together an offense that capitalizes on what player strengths are. No offense to your input here Alphadawg7. You do make some very good points, but i think there will be a more passes going to the slot and also the flat on screens. They are working on increasing run after catch numbers. I believe the TEs will also see an increase. But only against teams where the game plan calls for it. In other games, the outside receivers will be a bigger factor.

 

One game that comes to mind is the Colts. They were shutting down our deep passing game and also our running game. Against that team, I think there would be a decided increase in short passes to slot WRs and TEs. Maybe some screens. They say they want more run after catch, but honestly it is more about just keeping the ball moving forward in specific situations. The offense basically is diversifying and from that perspective, that is how the coaches will decide who to keep and who to cut. Having lots of guys that can play the slot and catch balls out of the backfield eliminates the possibility of having another game like that.

 

I agree that the most likely scenario is to keep 3 slot guys though. The plan going forward is to have an unstoppable passing attack even against a team like the Colts who had our number that game. Wondering if occasionally there are 2 slot guys on the field at the same time. We all ready suspect more 2 TE sets so why not. Maybe a RB leaking out along with a slot WR. The possibilities are endless and I think this is what they want. And I agree that this is a position to watch. These guys that play the slot will have to bring something else to the table beside just playing that position. They'll need to be able to run the whole route tree and/or play special teams. They'll have to be good at something besides just playing slot. Excelling at run after catch would be an eye grabber to the coaches I would think.

 

No offense taken...all good discussion going on in this thread...and I am not sold McKenzie is a surprise cut/trade by any means.  I wasn't setting out to even come to that possibility.  It more came about as I looked at all the data, potential roster makeup at other positions, etc...I couldn't get past the fact that I kept coming back to finding it hard to keep 3 primarily slot players without one of them returning kicks.  

 

Truth is, I hope we keep Crowder, Shakir, and McKenzie.  And its a legit possibility, maybe even the most plausible outcome.  But I will say, if we were to keep all 3 I don't think McKenzie has much more production than his career highs of 30 rec and 283 yards.  There just wont be a enough snaps and balls to go around.  Davis and Diggs are going to eat a lot of targets, the TE's seem more poised to be involved, Cook is going to increase the targets to the RB's as a whole, and I do think we will run the ball a little more than under Daboll.  

[LabattBlue]

I think many are kicking Crowder to the curb much to early.  He misses the first few days of camp, Shakir gets a couple of good reviews(no pads on), and boom….Crowder is gone…even dropped below Austin, who has done next to nothing in his career.  

[Rico]

Who will open Week 1 as the starter at slot? Whoever Josh wants.

[L Ron Burgundy]

I'm thinking they maybe use Shakir this year on designed short passing plays almost exclusively while Mckenzie and Crowder take most regular duties.

9 minutes ago, BTB said:

I think many are kicking Crowder to the curb much to early.  He misses the first few days of camp, Shakir gets a couple of good reviews(no pads on), and boom….Crowder is gone…even dropped below Austin, who has done next to nothing in his career.  

Agreed he's been very solid his whole career.   He could very well be our #1 slot.

[GunnerBill]

35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thanks and good points.  I would counter though and say they only brought McKenzie back after Beasley demanded a trade.  Prior to that, Beane said multiple times they expected Beasley to be here this season for his final year of his contract.  Once Beasley asked for a trade, Beane said he only wanted guys here who wanted to be here and decided to honor the trade request.  And of course they brought McKenzie back, but they didnt pay him much, at least not an amount that would assume it meant he was the heir apparent to Beasley.

 

My counter to the "he is running the ones" stuff is that way too much is being made of that this week while in shorts.  Crowder didnt play and Shakir is a rookie.  There was literally 0% chance anyone else was gonna start with the ones other than McKenzie this week.  So I can't put too much weight on a "default" type situation in terms of what might happen a month from now.  

 

 

I just don't think you sign Crowder (for more potentially money) if you as a staff are sold McKenzie is your primary slot player.  I don't believe they added Crowder as someone to backup McKenzie, I think he was directly brought in to compete to succeed Beasley.  

 

But hey, they havent even put pads on.  Once the bullets start flying around all this will get more clear.  I do really like McKenzie, so I am not rooting against him.  I do hope we keep all 3, I just wrote my analysis as unbiased as I could and look at it more from an overall roster perspective.  And it kept leading me to his path where I couldn't validate keeping 3 guys to primarily play out of the slot unless one was returning kicks.  But hey, that could all change once we see them in practice with pads and in preseason.  

 

 

Beane was NEVER bringing Beas back. From the moment he said in his end of season presser "Beas can still play in this league" and had to be pressed three times before he said "we expect him to be here."

 

I said on that day "he is gone." And he was. They were never keeping him. 

 

Crowder was bought to compete but his deal is 1 year, $2m. Which if the Bills used the out is exactly the same as Isaiah's. But so far through the spring and into week 1 of camp Crowder has either been hurt or behind McKenzie. At the moment Isaiah is in possession of the job and while I think Crowder can still get himself into a competition if he gets healthy I just don't believe there is any reason to assume he wins it. AND Isaiah has had a great week. Whatever their plan was for Crowder he has lost ground this week by not being available and the guy in possession has taken full advantage.

[Scott7975]

I dont think there will be the typical starter like we would say Diggs is the starter.  They know who McKenzie is and I dont think they sign him to that contract if he was going to get cut.