B-Man Posted August 15, 2023 Posted August 15, 2023 Back to the thread: I READ THE GEORGIA INDICTMENT, SO YOU DON’T HAVE TO By John Hinderaker The Georgia indictment relates to his (and 18 other defendants’) post-election efforts to reverse the apparent result of the 2020 election, in Georgia and elsewhere. That Trump made such attempts is not disputed. The question is, what did he do that was illegal? The indictment alleges a vast conspiracy, supported by 161 “overt acts,” that ultimately comprises Count I, a violation of Georgia’s RICO statute. The problem is that, with two exceptions, the “overt acts” are all legal. You can’t aggregate a series of legal acts and make them a crime by calling them a conspiracy. The indictment alleges that Trump and his co-conspirators made a number of false statements, starting with Overt Act 1: On or about the 4th day of November, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election. Approximately four days earlier, on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud. The speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. The indictment sets out in detail statements that were made by the defendants about voter fraud in Georgia and other states, all of which are alleged to be false. Of course, in the wake of the election, there were many claims of voter fraud. Some of these proved to be true, I think, while others proved to be incorrect. But so what? It is not, in general, a crime to make false statements. If it were, Washington would be a ghost town. The second main thrust of the indictment involves the fact that Trump and his “co-conspirators” arranged for an alternate slate of pro-Trump electors to be identified in Georgia. The indictment recites efforts by Trump and others to convince officials in Georgia and other states to certify his alternate slates, or otherwise to reverse the apparent results of the election in a particular state. These alternate electors were selected, as White House adviser Stephen Miller explained, to preserve Trump’s rights in the event that one or more of his legal challenges succeeded: “As we speak, today, an alternate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote and we’re going to send those results up to Congress,” he continued. “This will ensure that all of our legal remedies remain open. That means that if we win these cases in the courts, that we can direct that the alternate state of electors be certified.” I don’t think that such alternate elector slates are unprecedented, and in any event there is nothing illegal about identifying such would-be electors, however futile it might be. More at the link: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/08/i-read-the-georgia-indictment-so-you-dont-have-to.php 1
Roundybout Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 1 hour ago, BillsFanNC said: Oh do please try arresting Democrats. Please do. I dare you. 1
B-Man Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 47 minutes ago, Roundybout said: Oh do please try arresting Democrats. Please do. I dare you. There’s no point. What we’re you saying about just questioning district boundaries ? LOL
BillsFanNC Posted August 16, 2023 Author Posted August 16, 2023 4 hours ago, Roundybout said: Oh do please try arresting Democrats. Please do. I dare you. You dare ME? Really now. It would be the anti-commie DA who does the right thing here that you'd be "daring". As for me, I give less than zero ***** about veiled threats from a pissant useful idiot commie servant like you. . 1 1
BillsFanNC Posted August 16, 2023 Author Posted August 16, 2023 Reminder below of where this all began with Trump. They've abused the FISA process to spy on a Presidential campaign, impeached him over a phone call and rigged, sorry "fortified" an election against him. Nobody should be surprised where we are now with these sham indictments or where they'll go next if necessary in order to stop him. Keep in mind that the King, in his full TDS stupidity, routinely hand waves all of this away... The turning point for both of us -- almost simultaneously -- was when Trey Gowdy was allowed to read the Carter Page FISA and his public comments were "It's worse than you can even imagine. They didn't corroborate anything." To me Gowdy was significant because he had been a long time federal prosecutor and he understood the standards that applied to that kind of filing. His reaction was so dire I thought "Did they really do that??" Neither Andy nor I could even comprehend the idea that the FBI would take completely uncorroborated opposition research -- knowing it to be that -- and deliver it to the FISC in an affidavit claiming it was true and accurate, and was a basis to conclude that Carter Page as a member of the Trump Campaign was a Russian asset who communicated between the two entities. It was something neither of us could believe they would have actually done -- until we read it and the IG explained the completely irregular process that had been adopted to create the environment where it could happen. 1 1
Tommy Callahan Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Roundybout said: Oh do please try arresting Democrats. Please do. I dare you. LMAO. or what? more pac supported Riots? Edited August 16, 2023 by Chris farley 1
Tommy Callahan Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: Don't leave Brazil out of it. 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 12 hours ago, B-Man said: Back to the thread: I READ THE GEORGIA INDICTMENT, SO YOU DON’T HAVE TO By John Hinderaker The Georgia indictment relates to his (and 18 other defendants’) post-election efforts to reverse the apparent result of the 2020 election, in Georgia and elsewhere. That Trump made such attempts is not disputed. The question is, what did he do that was illegal? The indictment alleges a vast conspiracy, supported by 161 “overt acts,” that ultimately comprises Count I, a violation of Georgia’s RICO statute. The problem is that, with two exceptions, the “overt acts” are all legal. You can’t aggregate a series of legal acts and make them a crime by calling them a conspiracy. The indictment alleges that Trump and his co-conspirators made a number of false statements, starting with Overt Act 1: On or about the 4th day of November, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election. Approximately four days earlier, on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud. The speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. The indictment sets out in detail statements that were made by the defendants about voter fraud in Georgia and other states, all of which are alleged to be false. Of course, in the wake of the election, there were many claims of voter fraud. Some of these proved to be true, I think, while others proved to be incorrect. But so what? It is not, in general, a crime to make false statements. If it were, Washington would be a ghost town. The second main thrust of the indictment involves the fact that Trump and his “co-conspirators” arranged for an alternate slate of pro-Trump electors to be identified in Georgia. The indictment recites efforts by Trump and others to convince officials in Georgia and other states to certify his alternate slates, or otherwise to reverse the apparent results of the election in a particular state. These alternate electors were selected, as White House adviser Stephen Miller explained, to preserve Trump’s rights in the event that one or more of his legal challenges succeeded: “As we speak, today, an alternate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote and we’re going to send those results up to Congress,” he continued. “This will ensure that all of our legal remedies remain open. That means that if we win these cases in the courts, that we can direct that the alternate state of electors be certified.” I don’t think that such alternate elector slates are unprecedented, and in any event there is nothing illegal about identifying such would-be electors, however futile it might be. More at the link: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/08/i-read-the-georgia-indictment-so-you-dont-have-to.php What I would like to know is what overt/covert acts were planned or committed to fraudulently alter the vote count by adding or deleting vote or modifying counted votes? Or override the will of the people? Otherwise, does it boil down to a free speech issue. And is the governments contention that expressing discontent with an election result and discussing available legal remedies is no longer allowed? Says who?
Roundybout Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Chris farley said: LMAO. or what? more pac supported Riots? No, I just like watching Repubs make absolute fools of themselves over and over and over again. It’s delicious. The last time I was that entertained was when those chuds got caught trying to kill the Governor of Michigan. 6 hours ago, BillsFanNC said: You dare ME? Really now. It would be the anti-commie DA who does the right thing here that you'd be "daring". As for me, I give less than zero ***** about veiled threats from a pissant useful idiot commie servant like you. . Im referring to the authoritarian Christian nationalist in the tweet you posted. Edited August 16, 2023 by Roundybout 1
The Frankish Reich Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 12 hours ago, B-Man said: Back to the thread: I READ THE GEORGIA INDICTMENT, SO YOU DON’T HAVE TO By John Hinderaker The Georgia indictment relates to his (and 18 other defendants’) post-election efforts to reverse the apparent result of the 2020 election, in Georgia and elsewhere. That Trump made such attempts is not disputed. The question is, what did he do that was illegal? The indictment alleges a vast conspiracy, supported by 161 “overt acts,” that ultimately comprises Count I, a violation of Georgia’s RICO statute. The problem is that, with two exceptions, the “overt acts” are all legal. You can’t aggregate a series of legal acts and make them a crime by calling them a conspiracy. The indictment alleges that Trump and his co-conspirators made a number of false statements, starting with Overt Act 1: On or about the 4th day of November, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election. Approximately four days earlier, on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud. The speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. The indictment sets out in detail statements that were made by the defendants about voter fraud in Georgia and other states, all of which are alleged to be false. Of course, in the wake of the election, there were many claims of voter fraud. Some of these proved to be true, I think, while others proved to be incorrect. But so what? It is not, in general, a crime to make false statements. If it were, Washington would be a ghost town. The second main thrust of the indictment involves the fact that Trump and his “co-conspirators” arranged for an alternate slate of pro-Trump electors to be identified in Georgia. The indictment recites efforts by Trump and others to convince officials in Georgia and other states to certify his alternate slates, or otherwise to reverse the apparent results of the election in a particular state. These alternate electors were selected, as White House adviser Stephen Miller explained, to preserve Trump’s rights in the event that one or more of his legal challenges succeeded: “As we speak, today, an alternate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote and we’re going to send those results up to Congress,” he continued. “This will ensure that all of our legal remedies remain open. That means that if we win these cases in the courts, that we can direct that the alternate state of electors be certified.” I don’t think that such alternate elector slates are unprecedented, and in any event there is nothing illegal about identifying such would-be electors, however futile it might be. More at the link: https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/08/i-read-the-georgia-indictment-so-you-dont-have-to.php I know this guy is a lawyer, or I guess a retired lawyer. But maybe not a criminal lawyer, since part of this is just flat-out "I failed the Bar Exam" wrong." He says that of all the "overt acts" charged, only two were actually criminal acts. THAT'S NOT WHAT "OVERT ACTS" MEANS. Here's a pretty standard definition: An overt act is some type of action by any of the co-conspirators to further the overall goal of the conspiracy. This is what prosecutors must prove in order to show that the alleged conspiracy was more than just some discussion or a scheme that mostly existed in the co-conspirator’s minds. The overt act itself does not need to be unlawful in any way. The act only needs to be a concrete step towards carrying out the scheme, the act does not need to actually accomplish the goal of the alleged conspiracy. It is also important to note that all alleged co-conspirators are legally accountable for any overt acts by any of the parties that are reasonably foreseeable. For example, if two people have a discussion and agreement about printing counterfeit money, then one conspirator buying a printing press can qualify as an overt act of the conspiracy. The actions of one conspirator buying a printing press will place criminal liability on everyone involved in the conspiracy. A conspirator can also be held accountable for any actions that were made by others before the conspirator entered the conspiracy if they were late to the party. 2
SoCal Deek Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 I’m not a lawyer but this appears to be a ridiculous case. Georgia being swung to Trump would not have resulted in him becoming the President, so until these nitwits in Fulton County can find similar schemes being worked in the other critical battleground states then they really need to get over themselves. Flipping Fulton County wouldn’t have overturned the election. This seems akin to saying Trump planned to overthrow the government with a guy dressed like a bison at the tip of the spear.
Roundybout Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m not a lawyer but this appears to be a ridiculous case. Georgia being swung to Trump would not have resulted in him becoming the President, so until these nitwits in Fulton County can find similar schemes being worked in the other critical battleground states then they really need to get over themselves. Flipping Fulton County wouldn’t have overturned the election. This seems akin to saying Trump planned to overthrow the government with a guy dressed like a bison at the tip of the spear. “Asking” to find votes to help you win is illegal at any level, even if you’re running for the town garbage man
SoCal Deek Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Roundybout said: “Asking” to find votes to help you win is illegal at any level, even if you’re running for the town garbage man No it’s not! Asking to “create” votes may be illegal but asking to “find” votes could be attributed to every politician who’s ever run for any office anywhere. 4
BillsFanNC Posted August 16, 2023 Author Posted August 16, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: No it’s not! Asking to “create” votes may be illegal but asking to “find” votes could be attributed to every politician who’s ever run for any office anywhere. Wait so the useful idiot that is #Roundybout took marching orders from his masters and never looked back? No friggin way! When the WaPo is forced to correct the record... Edited August 16, 2023 by BillsFanNC 1
Roundybout Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 27 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: No it’s not! Asking to “create” votes may be illegal but asking to “find” votes could be attributed to every politician who’s ever run for any office anywhere. Im sure Trumps lawyers will argue that in a court of law. 25 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: Wait so the useful idiot that is #Roundybout took marching orders from his masters and never looked back? No friggin way! When the WaPo is forced to correct the record... God the conservatives are panicking that their god emperor is getting cooked, I absolutely love it. 1
SoCal Deek Posted August 16, 2023 Posted August 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, Roundybout said: Im sure Trumps lawyers will argue that in a court of law. On that we agree. 👍 1
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