I Watched SB 28 In Full Last Night, Thoughts & Analysis

[Fleezoid]

 

All the reflection going on is making me depressed. Unfortunately, the bad memories are overshadowing the good ones.

 

(fingers in ears) Hmmmmmmmmmmm. (Training camp is 9 days away) 

[Lost]

32 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

He also is bigger then most defensive players and back then may have been one of the fastest players in the league. It's why you can't compare era's, watching the game back it is much slower in comparison to right now. Not meant as criticism players have evolved and train to such a high level its wild what they physically can do. By comparison Kenny Davis was running a gas station summer of 93 lol.

 

Makes ya wonder if the evolution of athleticism will continue over the next 20 years.  Will we see players running a 4.00 40 in 2035?  Or will we reach a peak where its just not possible to become any stronger/faster.   Or maybe its all just an illusion and and players only look faster than they did back then.  Perhaps the change in performance can be contributed more to innovations in player gear.  More flexible lighter weight pads, helmets, jerseys.   Things to ponder...🤔

[corta765]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Even the comeback game: I though that game was more about the resilience of some of the players than about the coaching.  It also was about Houston's total lack of discipline and coaching.  

 

I remember Marv being asked after XXV whether if he had it to do over again, he would have done more to motivate his players.   (Remember, the reports were that Kelly and others were out drinking the night before the game.)   Marv said something like the players are professionals, and it's their job to get themselves ready to play, not his.   You can be sure that when they heard that, Bill Parcells and his defensive coordinator Bill Belichick thought that Marv was an idiot.   The Giants were much better prepared for XXV.  

 

1000% agree on Marv with this. Back in those times many coaches believed players were players and they would do what’s needed. The more detail focused coached may have had an edge just simply for doing a bit more.

The flip side is that group of Bills had a lottt of pride and ego. They weren’t necessarily a group that wanted to be told what to do as much as direction of where to go and how to maximize it. Marv excelled here as the SB runs showed despite falling three prior times. But he may have had a better fate over time to just have been a little more hands on. 

[corta765]

12 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

Makes ya wonder if the evolution of athleticism will continue over the next 20 years.  Will we see players running a 4.00 40 in 2035?  Or will we reach a peak where its just not possible to become any stronger/faster.   Or maybe its all just an illusion and and players only look faster than they did back then.  Perhaps the change in performance can be contributed more to innovations in player gear.  More flexible lighter weight pads, helmets, jerseys.   Things to ponder...🤔

 

One of the issues in football and hockey are with the increased speed of players the impact on the body and head. I have read that part of the reason head hits in both sports have increasingly been eliminated is the speed and size bodies are hitting with are beyond what could've been considered when either sport started. Of course head hits in general we have figured out are awful for the body, but back in the 60-70s or earlier when either sport was played it was generally at lower speed of contact. Connor McDavid in the NHL has hit 25 mph and Raheem Moestart of SF hit 23 mph last season. Those are insanely fast speeds that even with a helmet are beyond car collision territory. 

 

Mix in then better technology so players can move faster and how much stronger they are there are some real questions in terms of players health and recovery that will be have to be asked in the future even with incredible performance.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

Appreciate the review, sincerely. That one stung as bad as WR to me simply because they were playing so well before the Billsy collapse. 

I watched this game in my dads tiny smelly apartment after my parents had just gotten divorced. A sad sad memory all around. 

Still wore my Bills Starter jacket to school the next day, FTW. Go Bills. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by The Firebaugh Kid

[Preds]

3 hours ago, corta765 said:

Inspired by the thread on "Why Was Thurman So Bad In The Last 3 SBs" I made the brave slightly illogical decision of watching the Bills final SB loss. This truly was a game of two halves. Here are my thoughts on not only the game but how the sport itself has changed which was cool in many ways in sad in one:
 

-With that said the game did change on the fumble to tie but it was not the way I expected. It 100% fired Dallas up but like I said the defense after allowing the TD to Dallas to go up 20-13 hung in there. The offense just gave up in a sense. Thurman was beyond despondent and I am surprised a teammate didn't punch him for how bad his attitude was. The Bills also did not finish drives. The fact they didn't attempt a TD at the end of the 1st half and just played for the FG was mind blowing. In general the first half felt like each team trading punches and the Bills landed a few that had Dallas back. Yes the game momentum 100% turned on the fumble, but I would argue it actually started with the Bills not getting a TD to go up 17-6. You could feel Dallas walking into half that they dodged a possible knockdown punch there.

 

-Final remark watching it back as a fan of the Bills was frustrating as you could see it was a game they 100% were in if not actually had control of for a while. It is a shame the offense never got out of its way in the 2nd half as they had their shot. With that said it was really cool to see though our guys in the big game and everything that went with it. Time has benefited the Bills of those days well with how they are now remember because they were a great team and deserve to be remembered so. On to 2022 and the Josh Allen SB train!

I was at that SB and had seats on the Bills sideline about 15 rows up from the 25-30 yardline (seats were gifted from a member of the Bills coaching staff to one of my co-workers at the time).  The most maddening thing was watching Thurman after that fumble sit on the bench in front of us for almost the entire 3rd quarter sulking with his head in his hands.  Not a single player or coach came to him during that time.  They just left him be, which was infuriating as he was our best player on offense (sorry Kelly fans) and the previous 3 SB losses and that key fumble clearly got in his head and subsequently the rest of the team's heads.  Coaches and players should have been lifting him him and getting him emotionally back in the game.  Instead they left him to sulk.  I blame Levy and the staff for that SB loss more.  The Bills were the better team that year, until the failures of the past ate away at their confidence and their best player on offense took himself out of the game almost the entire 3rd quarter (not 100% on how long he sat out, but my memory was that he sat most of it).  SBXXV and XXVIII should have been W's, instead, they failed themselves and lost games they should have won and were the better team.  Thurman was at the time, and remains today one of my favorite Bills of all time.  Just wish his coaches teammates would have lifted him up when he need it most. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Preds

[Shaw66]

46 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

One of the issues in football and hockey are with the increased speed of players the impact on the body and head. I have read that part of the reason head hits in both sports have increasingly been eliminated is the speed and size bodies are hitting with are beyond what could've been considered when either sport started. Of course head hits in general we have figured out are awful for the body, but back in the 60-70s or earlier when either sport was played it was generally at lower speed of contact. Connor McDavid in the NHL has hit 25 mph and Raheem Moestart of SF hit 23 mph last season. Those are insanely fast speeds that even with a helmet are beyond car collision territory. 

 

Mix in then better technology so players can move faster and how much stronger they are there are some real questions in terms of players health and recovery that will be have to be asked in the future even with incredible performance.

I agree about the speed, and size, but there was something else going on, too.   In the 50s, the game was naturally under control.  Players tended to stay on their feet, and do classic blocking and tackling.   It was more like a big wrestling match among strong me.   It wasn't gentlemanly, to be sure, but the line play in particular was more about pushing the other guy back so the back could gain a few yards.   Gradually, some players started realizing that if they hit with more force, they could inflict some pain and discourage the opponent.   The Raiders took it to another level, recognizing that if they could inflict pain, the other guy might actually become fearful, and then they had a big advantage.  Clearly, it worked, and the players started playing more violently because violence helped them win. 

 

It was all on television, so the college players and then the high school players began to take a more violent approach to the game.   There was a story that one high school team refused to play the team Cornelius Bennett played for unless Bennett didn't play.   He was too big, too fast, AND too accustomed to hitting with ferocity that the other team simply didn't want their kids to get hurt.  

 

Finally, as we know, the league realized (with a lot of pressure) that as spectacular as the violence was, it simply was too much like war and not enough like a game.  So, the rules changed, and they keep changing.   

3 minutes ago, Preds said:

I was at that SB and had seats on the Bills sideline about 15 rows up from the 25-30 yardline (seats were gifted from a member of the Bills coaching staff to one of my co-workers at the time).  The most maddening thing was watching Thurman after that fumble sit on the bench in front of us for almost the entire 3rd quarter sulking with his head in his hands.  Not a single player or coach came to him during that time.  They just left him be which was infuriating as he was out best player on offense (sorry Kelly fans) and the previous 3 SB losses and that key fumble clearly got in his head and subsequently the rest of the teams.  Coaches and players should have been lifting him him and getting him emotionally back in the game.  Instead they left him to sulk.  I blame Levy and the staff for that SB loss more.  The Bills were the better team that year, until the failures of the past ate away at their confidence and their best player on offense took himself out of the game almost the entire 3rd quarter (not 100% on how long he sat out, but my memory was that he sat most of it).  SBXXV and XXVIII should have been W's, instead, they failed themselves and lost games they should have won and were the better team.  Thurman was at the time, and remains today one of my favorite Bills of all time.  Just wish his coaches teammates would have lifted him up when he need it most. 

Yes, and it was kind of surprising that the same team had gathered itself so well in the comeback game, stayed in the game, focused, working. 

[sven233]

While I don't think I will ever watch any of those Super Bowls again (it was bad enough living through them the first time around), I have been re-watching a ton of old games starting in the mid 80s through the end of the 90s.  I will say this....  watching these games and some of the coaching decisions that were made back then really makes me mad.  Even in games they win, and some fairly comfortably at that, the coaching left a lot to be desired. 

 

I get it.  We like Marv because those teams won a ton of games, but let me tell you.....I don't think he was a great head coach, he was one of the most conservative coaches I have ever seen, and didn't make a lot of great decisions in game.  Yes, we won a lot back then, but it was mainly because of the talent on that team.  Now, was Marv a great people person?  Could he manage all of those egos?  Yes.  He did that well.  But after re-watching most of these games, if the internet existed back then, I think there is a good chance he would have been ripped apart a lot for his actual coaching.

 

The other thing I noticed is that there were several glaring weaknesses on those teams back then.  I know free agency worked a lot differently back then so it may have been harder to fill holes, but there were several times, even season to season that the secondary could have used some help.  Or, the interior of the defense could have been upgraded.  The offensive line after was never really addressed for years after Wolford and company left.  They just kept plugging guys into key spots that were terrible and unathletic (here's looking at you, Parker).  And let me tell you......how this team even stuck with Norwood during the 90 season leading up to that first Super Bowl blows my mind.  He missed so many kicks, even the easiest of kicks, leading up to that game that I have no clue how he was still kicking for this team in important moments.  He was terrible.  Not sure what game it was because I watched it a few months ago now (it may have been against the Raiders) where he missed like 5 kicks, including both FGs and XPs, along with a couple that would have been game winners.  Not only missed them, but missed them BAD.  Them not replacing him earlier is baffling.

 

OK....this turned into more of a rant than I was anticipating.  Didn't mean for this to go on this long!  HA!  Point is, we all lived through a lot of great seasons back then.  We won a lot of games and we were fun to watch.  But man, we left so much meat on the bone for a lot of different reasons.  Frustrating to see it even more clearly after going back and re-watching most of those games again.

[Rigby]

I watch them whenever I need a good cry. Otherwise, nope can't bring myself to do it.

[TheBrownBear]

I think the conservative gameplan was the result of us winning that early season game in Dallas 13-10 in a very similar fashion to what we saw in the first half of the Super Bowl.  Dallas was the better team that day (they outgained us by 150 yards) but turned the ball over a ton and we just sort of went into a shell and held on.  Given how the previous year's Super Bowl had gone and the way that the earlier game played out, I think Marv (and maybe the players too) thought the only chance they had to win was to play super conservative, try not to turn it over and hope that our bend but don't break defense could produce enough turnovers from Dallas to win in a squeaker.  They knew in their bones that Dallas was the superior team and would boat race them in a track meet type of game.    And based on the first half, the gameplan just might have actually worked if not for Thurman's fumbles.

[gonzo1105]

While the Bills were the cream of the crop in the AFC, the NFC was a far superior conference at that time. Kelly was never really good in big games. Even the playoff games against the Dolphins he was not great, or he was injured. The only SB the Bills should have won was the first one. They had a great chanced in the 4th SB but they let a sleeping giant off the mat and got rolled in the 2nd half. 

 

I remember thinking man the Bills owned that first half and their only up 13-6. When the fumble happened and they returned it I knew in my heart it was over.

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree about the speed, and size, but there was something else going on, too.   In the 50s, the game was naturally under control.  Players tended to stay on their feet, and do classic blocking and tackling.   It was more like a big wrestling match among strong me.   It wasn't gentlemanly, to be sure, but the line play in particular was more about pushing the other guy back so the back could gain a few yards.   Gradually, some players started realizing that if they hit with more force, they could inflict some pain and discourage the opponent.   The Raiders took it to another level, recognizing that if they could inflict pain, the other guy might actually become fearful, and then they had a big advantage.  Clearly, it worked, and the players started playing more violently because violence helped them win. 

 

It was all on television, so the college players and then the high school players began to take a more violent approach to the game.   There was a story that one high school team refused to play the team Cornelius Bennett played for unless Bennett didn't play.   He was too big, too fast, AND too accustomed to hitting with ferocity that the other team simply didn't want their kids to get hurt.  

 

Finally, as we know, the league realized (with a lot of pressure) that as spectacular as the violence was, it simply was too much like war and not enough like a game.  So, the rules changed, and they keep changing.   

Yes, and it was kind of surprising that the same team had gathered itself so well in the comeback game, stayed in the game, focused, working. 

What really created this shift was the change in equipment. In the 30's/40's/50's the helmet padding and overall padding just wasn't very good. This cautioned players to not recklessly throw themselves into another player. If they did it would be certain injury. As the game progressed the equipment just kept getting better. To the point where you could go full speed and launch yourself into another person and while you might feel some pain, the likelihood of injury was low. Then of course this style of violence was celebrated and encouraged. But IMO CTE never starts if they still have on leather helmets and cloth pads.  

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, corta765 said:

Inspired by the thread on "Why Was Thurman So Bad In The Last 3 SBs" I made the brave slightly illogical decision of watching the Bills final SB loss. This truly was a game of two halves. Here are my thoughts on not only the game but how the sport itself has changed which was cool in many ways in sad in one:

 

 

-Lead up for the game had pageantry but man does the NFL do it to the max now. I actually miss the player introductions and coming out of the inflatable helmets it was a really cool thing. 

-Having no graphics on the screen outside of the play clock counting down was actually really nice. I would like to see that as an option in the future because it was much easier and less distracting to watch the game that way.

-OJ is here! (murders happened a few months later)

-They are really excited about the new Falcons stadium.... which is now gone haha.

-Dallas 100% was more athletic then the Bills defense and you could see that. But I have to give the Bills credit the D came to play that game

-Michael Irvin was a freak and made some big catches to move the sticks where he out muscled guys

-The Bills defense despite getting pushed down to the redzone twice early on did a great job holding Dallas to a FGs to keep it 6-0. Overall the Bills defense actually kept Buffalo in this game and didn't deserve to lose. The Cowboys scored 13 pts off turnover in which Dallas started in Buffalo territory or in the Thomas fumble was a TD return. Despite Dallas getting the go ahead TD to go up 20-13 Buffalo's defense actually stood in there until Kelly's INT early in the 4th. At that point you can see they finally were worn down and Dallas offensive line was finally being able to enforce their will. I think had Buffalo got it tied 20-20 the defense probably could've made it through the 4th as you could see they were waiting for some pick me up by the offense as they kept Dallas back.

-With that said Buffalo's strength 100% was their front 7, the secondary let some pretty big pass plays go through. The fact they hung in the way they did is a credit to the effort of the D and coaching

-With that said the game did change on the fumble to tie but it was not the way I expected. It 100% fired Dallas up but like I said the defense after allowing the TD to Dallas to go up 20-13 hung in there. The offense just gave up in a sense. Thurman was beyond despondent and I am surprised a teammate didn't punch him for how bad his attitude was. The Bills also did not finish drives. The fact they didn't attempt a TD at the end of the 1st half and just played for the FG was mind blowing. In general the first half felt like each team trading punches and the Bills landed a few that had Dallas back. Yes the game momentum 100% turned on the fumble, but I would argue it actually started with the Bills not getting a TD to go up 17-6. You could feel Dallas walking into half that they dodged a possible knockdown punch there.

-If I had watched that game live I would've thrown my TV remote in anger with the play calling in the 2nd half and in general. The 1st half the offense had tempo, but they played a very vanilla ten yards or less attack style for the most part. Kelly missed Beebe on a deep bomb and that was the only major deep pass that stuck with me. Buffalo's inability to test Dallas on mid range to long range passes certainly caught them in the 2nd half. The kept trying this stupid shovel pass which Thurman got maybe 2-3 yards each time. The best plays Buffalo had were either screen passes or slant routes that negated some of Dallas speed. The coaching staff never adjusted for the fact Dallas kept eating up misdirection plays like crazy.

-Please appreciate in general the level of passing we see today and the skill associated. Aikman had quite a few well thrown balls as did Jim, but in todays NFL they probably each would've been picked 2-3 times. The skill of the league and speed is just so much more noticeable now with how the game is played it is impressive to see the evolution.

-With that point both teams for being the peak of the league offensively in the early 90s really liked to run the ball right into the middle for 3-4 yards. It is 100% in the NFL's best interest it is a passing league now because it is more entertaining.

-Watching Bruce Smith manhandle guys made me think of Aaron Donald. The pure power and strength of both players is insane and Bruce 100% could play today and I do not doubt he would eat players all day.

-I am happy the NFL did adjust their headshot rules because there 100% are guys with CTE with how the game was played. I like hitting and I do not like the penalties on QBs now, watching the game Kelly and Aikman took hits that were perfectly fine but would be penalties today. That stinks and I wish we moved back a bit on, but the headshot stuff is 100% for the best to be gone.

-Don Beebe deserved the SB ring he got with GB for his effort in his time in BUF. The dude fought all game and his play stuck out as one of the few offensive players that actually did something and kept fighting to the end.

-On the flipside Marv Levy had the personality of a rock on the sideline. Especially in the 2nd half as the offense saw the floor collapse under them he realllyyyy needed to get some energy going. Has anyone ever said if he even talked to Thurman who on the sideline was borderline on suicide watch after the fumble? 

-Jim Kelly actually had a solid 1st half. He picked apart Dallas pretty well and had them off balance which negated their speed. Once Dallas got up and Thurman removed himself from the game Dallas pinned their ears back and attacked. If you have seen the movie The Replacements with Keanu Reaves he speaks about when things start going wrong its like quicksand. Watching Kelly in the second half I would apply that quote to his play. You can see he starts pressing rather then taking what he is given, but you can understand it after 3 SB losses and the position they are in. My greatest criticism for the coaching staff was not reeling him in a little and going off script with the game plan for some easy yardage plays like screens or quick passing plays. You watch and see he is trying so hard to make a play to keep the Bills in it but it isn't there. The INT in the 4th quarter that iced the game was 100% this in a nutshell.

-Emmitt Smiths greatest thing in this game was evading/breaking tackles which allowed him at the end of the game to finish Buffalo off. You could see the Bills didn't have the energy on D by the 4th and he was able to shake them with ease.

-The biggest sad change for me from the NFL is the crowd at the SB. When Buffalo scored the shout song is playing and it is a very loud audible crowd of Bills fans singing. When Dallas made their good plays or scored their fans were 100% into it. You do not get that anymore as it has become a rich corporate affair. It really stuck out to me that regular fans were in attendance and you could 100% hear and feel them. This is 100% a loss for the NFL and the fans of their teams.

-Final remark watching it back as a fan of the Bills was frustrating as you could see it was a game they 100% were in if not actually had control of for a while. It is a shame the offense never got out of its way in the 2nd half as they had their shot. With that said it was really cool to see though our guys in the big game and everything that went with it. Time has benefited the Bills of those days well with how they are now remember because they were a great team and deserve to be remembered so. On to 2022 and the Josh Allen SB train!

Too soon bro…too soon.

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, SF Bills Fan said:

I remember nothing from this game other than we were winning and driving with Dallas struggling to stop us and Thurman fumbled on what could have been a big gain and they scored and it was game over right there. 

 

Basically, yes. Once that happened,  Thomas was no longer a factor and Dallas was able to wear down the Bills OL just that much more quickly with their superior DL depth and were able to pressure Jim Kelly into mistakes after he'd played a solid first half.  It was a perfect example of a game won and lost in the trenches.  Dallas was simply better up front on both sides of the ball. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, sven233 said:

I get it.  We like Marv because those teams won a ton of games, but let me tell you.....I don't think he was a great head coach, he was one of the most conservative coaches I have ever seen, and didn't make a lot of great decisions in game.  Yes, we won a lot back then, but it was mainly because of the talent on that team.  Now, was Marv a great people person?  Could he manage all of those egos?  Yes.  He did that well.  But after re-watching most of these games, if the internet existed back then, I think there is a good chance he would have been ripped apart a lot for his actual coaching.

In hindsight I think Marv was a great leader.  A guy that got the team to rally around each other and the objective and kept them focused in a way few other coaches could have at the time.  Getting them them back to the SB 4 straight times when failure to win the big game added an extra psychological burden on the staff and the players going into the next season.  But i do agree his head coaching performance wasn't anywhere near his leadership level for the reasons and examples you stated.  Some of that I think might have been a style that delegated a bit too much authority and input to the offensive and defensive assistants to game plan and play call on game days.  And when things didn't go well just sticking to that instead of taking charge and jumping into the drivers seat. 

The biggest of these blunders was to not pull aside Marchibroda and Kelly during SB25 where they simply refused to run the ball when the yards where there for the taking.  Thomas had what, 15 carries for 135.  I would have run him until his legs fell off and forced the Giant out of that defense and then let Kelly air it out.

Edited July 15, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Nextmanup]

I enjoyed reading the OP's synopsis, because like the other 3 Bills SBs----I have only ever watched this game once, live, and don't really remember a lot of its details.  

 

I have never had any desire to watch any of them a second time.

 

[Santana]

Too much JIm Kelly...not enough Thurman Thomas

[gomper]

While SB28 was so deflating, SB25 was the all-time heartbreaker for me. So many things could have gone different but didn't. One sticks out. 3rd down conversions.

 

BUF 1-8 with the only one coming on the last drive.

 

NYG 9-16

 

Marv got taken to coaching school that night and not just by Belichick. Ron Airhart called a great game as the Giants OC.

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, ALLEN1QB said:

I could never watch it again one time is enough thank you for your analysis. Buffalo could have easily won 2 or 3 of those grrrrr. Out couched in all 4.

 

 

Two? Yeah, maybe. They had a real shot in the 1st and 4th games.

 

Three? No way in hell. They were completely and totally outclassed in the two games in the middle. Just came up against much better teams.

[Richard Noggin]

The Bills practicing the shovel pass was actually briefly shown in a brief local TV news segment leading up to the game, and I swear I knew that play was going to be featured. By 1994 the Bills offense was becoming a predictable facsimile of its earlier self, and any new wrinkles were not exactly destined for success.