Jordan Palmer says Josh Allen is "the most talented player to ever play quarterback"

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Palmer was not involved with coaching any of these throws, to my knowledge…

 

 

Again, arm strength, not accuracy,  was the topic I was first responding to. 

 

Are you saying Josh was a very accurate passer coming out college (before Palmer)? 

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, NewEra said:

So are we talking about physical tools or talent?  Vick had the physical arm strength equal to Josh….but he was a much less accurate passer.  
 

Even if we were to agree that they had equal arm strength, no one would say Vick was more accurate.  Allens arm talent is better.  He’s a better reader of the football field and is a better thrower of the 3 nfl passes.   He makes better use of pump fakes and is adept at looking off DBs.  
 

Vick is faster.  That’s all.

 

Allen's main knock coming into the league and after his rookie season was his accuracy.  You know this.  He had better coaching and it improved.

 

Vick didn't have that kind of instruction--not sure too many guys had that 20 years ago after they already were in the league.

 

8 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

except one Josh Allen…

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/platform/amp/2018/12/12/18136447/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-breaks-michael-vicks-qb-rushing-mark-super-bowl-era

 

Maybe you didn't read the article.  It clearly says Josh broke Vicks record for rushing "in the first 8 starts of his career".  Josh had 490 yards rushing over those 8 games.  335 of those yards came in 3 games (in the other 5 he had 36, 39, 19, 19, 20).  After those first 8 starts, he would run for a total  of 141 over the rest of the season. 

 

In Atlanta Vick had seasons with 6.9, 6.4, 7.5 8.4 YPC.  3 seasons over 750 yards rushing. On the Jets, his carries declined but he still had seasons of 6.8, 7.8, 8.5 YPC.  A career 7 YPC. 

 

Josh has had a season of 7.1 and 6.3 and a single season over 750 yards. We can assume that Josh's 100+ carry seasons won't continue by design.

 

8 hours ago, Doc said:

Reid couldn’t improve Vicks accuracy. And he ran so much because he wasn’t that great of a passer. 

 

Reid never improved anyone's accuracy.  How could he?

 

8 hours ago, NewEra said:

So your argument now lies behind Vick not having the proper coaching.  Got it.  
 

great argument.  
 

You credit Rodgers and Mahomes for being more accurate than Josh.  Yet Josh can’t be given the same nod over Vick….. because Vick never had the proper coaching. 
 

Vick is faster.  That is all

 

Josh's major knock before the draft was his accuracy.  You have forgotten this maybe?  It was in all the papers. 

 

The topic of this thread is, essentially, that Josh's QB product significantly improved with a lot of coaching--Palmer being widely credited here for this.  Is your argument that none of this is true?  That Josh was fully formed upon entering the NFL?  That coaching cannot (and didn't) affect his (or anyone's) performance.

 

 

 

[julian]

21 hours ago, 3rdnlng said:

So, on top of everything else he's Marcia's gynecologist? 

Yes and obviously he’s a birthing person.. how else do you explain his 3 sons Tommy, Zac and Mac all of which he’s given birth with no help from Brittany 

[machine gun kelly]

Weo has a point in that Allen was inaccurate when entering the league.  If we remember back to 18, he tried to do everything he could to win, and as much as I’m gulping saying it Kiler called it when drafted.  He said Allen lost three of his best players in the draft his Second to last year and had to do everything his final year.  
 

That took undoing as he walked into the same hot mess in Buffalo.  We all know the purge the scary dump and be in cap hell in 18 with arguably the worst O Line and WR in the NFL and not much of a running game.  He was broken of bad habits over time with coaching in the season and out of the season to trust his guys and Beane slowly filled the well with talent around him.  
 

National analysts are so enamored with his growth over the four years, but he gets all the credit for breaking hero bad habits, surrounding him with talent (credit to McD, Daboll, and Beane) and his neverending drive to be the best.

 

I submit with his god given talent and his drive to be the best, it’s what made him who he is today.  Yes, he has the most raw talent in my eyes in the NFL, but he also took advantage of that talent and didn’t squander it.

 

I don’t think Lalmer is really saying he’s the best QB yet, but he has the most talent and can ascend to being the best over the next decade.  Even more than Mahomes and Herbert.  Significant challenges and struggles can break a man, or can help him be the man he is today, and he’ll never forget it.

 

You guys will hate this example, but one of the reasons Brady is who he is today after 22 years is he won’t let himself forget his struggles being overlooked in college, and in the draft, and only had a chance with a life threatening injury to His predecessor.  Think about and I mean really think about Brady his first starting year.  He was nothing compared to what he was 5 and 10 years later.  He had an incredible defense, and everything on offense to get to that Rams SB, but he had tj e hunger to win and overcome his failings.

 

Thats an example of what I see from Allen 5, 10, and he’s 15, years from now with these new WB rules.  He’ll just need to keep evolving and using his running skills more sparingly as the decade progresses as he can remain uninjured if so. 
 

Talent yes, called the best get, no. (He needs the ring to get in that conversation). He’ll do it!  I’m 100% confident.  Maybe it’s this year.  He’s certainly put in the work.

[HOUSE]

I am not betting $10,000 on the Bills

-nice try

[Dr. Who]

25 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

I am not betting $10,000 on the Bills

-nice try

If you do, make sure you don't tell your wife.

[LeGOATski]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

If you do, make sure you don't tell your wife.

And then make sure to post about it on TSW

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Reid never improved anyone's accuracy.  How could he?

 

How could Palmer improve Josh's accuracy?

 

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Weo has a point in that Allen was inaccurate when entering the league.  If we remember back to 18, he tried to do everything he could to win, and as much as I’m gulping saying it Kiler called it when drafted.  He said Allen lost three of his best players in the draft his Second to last year and had to do everything his final year.  
 

That took undoing as he walked into the same hot mess in Buffalo.  We all know the purge the scary dump and be in cap hell in 18 with arguably the worst O Line and WR in the NFL and not much of a running game.  He was broken of bad habits over time with coaching in the season and out of the season to trust his guys and Beane slowly filled the well with talent around him.  
 

National analysts are so enamored with his growth over the four years, but he gets all the credit for breaking hero bad habits, surrounding him with talent (credit to McD, Daboll, and Beane) and his neverending drive to be the best.

 

I submit with his god given talent and his drive to be the best, it’s what made him who he is today.  Yes, he has the most raw talent in my eyes in the NFL, but he also took advantage of that talent and didn’t squander it.

 

I don’t think Lalmer is really saying he’s the best QB yet, but he has the most talent and can ascend to being the best over the next decade.  Even more than Mahomes and Herbert.  Significant challenges and struggles can break a man, or can help him be the man he is today, and he’ll never forget it.

 

You guys will hate this example, but one of the reasons Brady is who he is today after 22 years is he won’t let himself forget his struggles being overlooked in college, and in the draft, and only had a chance with a life threatening injury to His predecessor.  Think about and I mean really think about Brady his first starting year.  He was nothing compared to what he was 5 and 10 years later.  He had an incredible defense, and everything on offense to get to that Rams SB, but he had tj e hunger to win and overcome his failings.

 

Thats an example of what I see from Allen 5, 10, and he’s 15, years from now with these new WB rules.  He’ll just need to keep evolving and using his running skills more sparingly as the decade progresses as he can remain uninjured if so. 
 

Talent yes, called the best get, no. (He needs the ring to get in that conversation). He’ll do it!  I’m 100% confident.  Maybe it’s this year.  He’s certainly put in the work.

 

That's hardly a revelation.  It's the main reason why many, myself included, thought he'd be a bust.  But he hired Palmer to help him correct his flaws, and proved many of us wrong.

[McBean]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:40 PM, extrahammer said:

 

I will not debate this either way, I just love to hear it. 

With all the horrid QB play I’ve seen the past 20+ years, it amazes me some out saying we have the best player on the planet on our team.

 

Like, pinch me.

 

Is it September 8th yet?

[Mr. WEO]

46 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

How could Palmer improve Josh's accuracy?

 

 

That's hardly a revelation.  It's the main reason why many, myself included, thought he'd be a bust.  But he hired Palmer to help him correct his flaws, and proved many of us wrong.

 

He is a QB coach.  Are you saying he did not?

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Allen's main knock coming into the league and after his rookie season was his accuracy.  You know this.  He had better coaching and it improved.

 

Vick didn't have that kind of instruction--not sure too many guys had that 20 years ago after they already were in the league.

 

 

Maybe you didn't read the article.  It clearly says Josh broke Vicks record for rushing "in the first 8 starts of his career".  Josh had 490 yards rushing over those 8 games.  335 of those yards came in 3 games (in the other 5 he had 36, 39, 19, 19, 20).  After those first 8 starts, he would run for a total  of 141 over the rest of the season. 

 

In Atlanta Vick had seasons with 6.9, 6.4, 7.5 8.4 YPC.  3 seasons over 750 yards rushing. On the Jets, his carries declined but he still had seasons of 6.8, 7.8, 8.5 YPC.  A career 7 YPC. 

 

Josh has had a season of 7.1 and 6.3 and a single season over 750 yards. We can assume that Josh's 100+ carry seasons won't continue by design.

 

 

Reid never improved anyone's accuracy.  How could he?

 

 

Josh's major knock before the draft was his accuracy.  You have forgotten this maybe?  It was in all the papers. 

 

The topic of this thread is, essentially, that Josh's QB product significantly improved with a lot of coaching--Palmer being widely credited here for this.  Is your argument that none of this is true?  That Josh was fully formed upon entering the NFL?  That coaching cannot (and didn't) affect his (or anyone's) performance.

 

 

 

At the 54:40 mark, the interviewers bring up Joe Burrow being more talented, palmer immediately dismisses him due to “physical talent”.  They aren’t just discussing “learned technique”.  Cam, Vick and Lamar are on the lower side of learned technique, and on the top of the physical talent spectrum.  Yet, they are in this conversation……not because of what they learned as passers but because of their physical talent.  They are discussing both.  Josh has it all in spades.  He has learned talent from his improvement as a passer and he has the physical talent from he’s being and the work he’s put in.  
 

We’ve beaten this poor horse and now it seems that we are pulling it around while moving the goal posts.  You’ll find a way to make this for your ideas.  You’ve moved the conversation from talent to being coached up.

 

have fun

[Doc]

27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

He is a QB coach.  Are you saying he did not?

 

Obviously I'm saying he did.  Are you?

 

And Reid was a QB coach as well.  To think that Vick didn't receive coaching when he entered the NFL is absurd.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Doc

[Bill from NYC]

Remember, Josh played at freaking Wyoming.  He didn't have the great coaching that most top QBs received.

 

In terms of pure physical talent, the only qbs that enter my mind to have talent like Josh are Elway, Mahomes, and perhaps Trevor Lawrence and; I put Josh at the top of this list.  The man is a freak.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Bill from NYC

[Mr. WEO]

19 minutes ago, NewEra said:

At the 54:40 mark, the interviewers bring up Joe Burrow being more talented, palmer immediately dismisses him due to “physical talent”.  They aren’t just discussing “learned technique”.  Cam, Vick and Lamar are on the lower side of learned technique, and on the top of the physical talent spectrum.  Yet, they are in this conversation……not because of what they learned as passers but because of their physical talent.  They are discussing both.  Josh has it all in spades.  He has learned talent from his improvement as a passer and he has the physical talent from he’s being and the work he’s put in.  
 

We’ve beaten this poor horse and now it seems that we are pulling it around while moving the goal posts.  You’ll find a way to make this for your ideas.  You’ve moved the conversation from talent to being coached up.

 

have fun

 

Actually I haven't.  I was responding to specific posts.  

 

Adios!

 

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Obviously I'm saying he did.  Are you?

 

And Reid was a QB coach as well.  To think that Vick didn't receive coaching when he entered the NFL is absurd.

 

Who was Vick's private QB tutor from the draft to his 4th year in ATL?  

 

Reid made his career with 2 top 10 1st round picks at QB.  These weren't projects, so there wasn't a lot of heavy lifting to get these 2 ready to play.  He was a QB for 2 seasons in GB --well after Favre was already a star (4 time PB, All Pro by then) having two of his career best seasons before Reid got that job.  He must have fixed Favre's game too?  lol

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Who was Vick's private QB tutor from the draft to his 4th year in ATL?  

 

Reid made his career with 2 top 10 1st round picks at QB.  These weren't projects, so there wasn't a lot of heavy lifting to get these 2 ready to play.  He was a QB for 2 seasons in GB --well after Favre was already a star (4 time PB, All Pro by then) having two of his career best seasons before Reid got that job.  He must have fixed Favre's game too?  lol

 

I don't know.  Did Vick ever try to improve his passing abilities?  By his own words, he didn't.  He was probably too busy fighting and killing dogs in his off-season.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, McBean said:

With all the horrid QB play I’ve seen the past 20+ years, it amazes me some out saying we have the best player on the planet on our team.

 

Like, pinch me.

 

Is it September 8th yet?

 

 

The context of your astonishment is that nobody on TSW had less optimism than you about the Josh Allen draft selection.

 

You were REALLY upset about that pick.

 

I think we are all surprised.........not even the biggest Josh Allen fan saw him turning into a GREAT running QB in addition to his arm talent...........but the people who hated the choice to select Allen gotta' be questioning their reality.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The context of your astonishment is that nobody on TSW had less optimism than you about the Josh Allen draft selection.

 

You were REALLY upset about that pick.

 

I think we are all surprised.........not even the biggest Josh Allen fan saw him turning into a GREAT running QB in addition to his arm talent...........but the people who hated the choice to select Allen gotta' be questioning their reality.

 

Even Gunner Bill?

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Even Gunner Bill?

 

 

Yes,  McBean was distraught.

 

@GunnerBill didn't like the Allen pick but there were some people who were just beside themselves.

 

McBeane set that stage by basically implying that they were all-in on the 2018 QB class by McD passing on a QB in 2017 and then trading core prime-aged players for picks that summer to get ammo for the 2018 draft.    It was the most prolonged build-up to a QB selection in Bills history so there were some people ready to emote by the time draft day arrived.

[NewEra]

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Actually I haven't.  I was responding to specific posts.  

 

Adios!

 

 

Who was Vick's private QB tutor from the draft to his 4th year in ATL?  

 

Reid made his career with 2 top 10 1st round picks at QB.  These weren't projects, so there wasn't a lot of heavy lifting to get these 2 ready to play.  He was a QB for 2 seasons in GB --well after Favre was already a star (4 time PB, All Pro by then) having two of his career best seasons before Reid got that job.  He must have fixed Favre's game too?  lol

I quoted your first post, which was responding to no one.  I wasn’t involved in your debates with other posters
 

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The context of your astonishment is that nobody on TSW had less optimism than you about the Josh Allen draft selection.

 

You were REALLY upset about that pick.

 

I think we are all surprised.........not even the biggest Josh Allen fan saw him turning into a GREAT running QB in addition to his arm talent...........but the people who hated the choice to select Allen gotta' be questioning their reality.

People should be “questioning their reality” because they weren’t optimistic that a Buffalo Bills coaching staff and FO would be able to surround Josh Allen with the right tools to succeed?  
 

People should be “questioning their reality” because they didn’t know what kind of heart and motivation to be great that Josh had inside of him?

 

talk about going overboard……

[stinky finger]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:34 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Has this board ever heard of John Elway? Same size, arm strength, and athletic ability.  Played in an era where it was much harder to be a passer.

 

Or Brett Favre? He wasn't as fast running but obviously had the toughness and the arm strength. 

 

Steve Young was an amazing passer and runner though his running was not as violent as JA's. 

 

Montana was also sneaky mobile early on. Obviously not the arm strength of JA though.

 

 

 

 

I got Randall Cunningham on the line. WIll you take his call?