Locked on Bills Podcast: A Case for Tremaine Edmunds

[Ethan in Cleveland]

6 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Gilmore and Woods are the two that stick out in my mind.  Not as heavily debated as Edmunds but fans were split on their opinion of whether they should pony up and re-sign them.  Different regime(s) though who I had less faith in evaluating talent than this one.

McD was here when they let Gilmore walk. He could have franchised him. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:51 AM, JayBaller10 said:

I didn’t like the Terel Bernard pick in the 3rd (liked the position, not the name), but by all accounts he’s really popped in practice and showcased his speed. He and Edmunds are entirely different players, but if Bernard excels more than we could’ve hoped for, it makes Edmunds that much more expendable. Like Beane said, their styles are totally different, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Milano/Bernard pairing going into next year if the rook keeps killing it. The MLB position in this defense isn’t typical anyway since they do run so much nickel. 

Not a chance. If they decide not to extend Edmunds they will draft his replacement in round 1 next year. Beane drafts for need in round 1.  I suppose a free agent replacement is possible too but my guess is they draft his replacement.

[Pete]

I would prioritize extending Knox, Oliver and Motor.  Sorry no cap room for you Edmunds

[nosejob]

14 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think Edmunds is that unique. He's an elite athlete who has struggled with the mental side of football. That's an entire genre of NFL player.

  Well put. I mentioned earlier that in the K.C. playoff game, he looked...to me, like a bewildered rookie. However K.C.'s rookie Nick Bolton looked like a seasoned vet. Fred Warner Tremaine ain't. Also agree about the mental side. You can just tell when you hear players talk during interviews and I heard a lengthy one recently. I'm not too optimistic about any drastic improvement.

 

  I have a ton of respect for players who try hard to improve their craft in the off season. TE university, Pass rush summit, Jordan Palmer etc. Even Singletary did it. I don't get the idea that Edmunds thinks he needs any of that. Maybe that's because ( and let us not forget), he was pick no. 16.  He says he just needs to trust his instincts and what he sees more.

 

  I won't be surprised if Bernard impresses in some way this year and they bring in new talent be it draft or Free agency. next year.

[Shaw66]

13 hours ago, SDS said:

nothing you have said relates to what anyone sees on the field. I get his combine measurements. At some point I would like to see it in game. The number of times I say “only he could make that play” is so infrequent, if ever, that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

Maybe you haven't read all that I've written here, so I'll say it once more.   Marino's point, and one that I think has at least some validity, is that the thing that makes him special is invisible - it doesn't show up in any of the stats that are traditionally compiled and are publicly available, although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the team analytics people do quantify it.  The point is that the combination of Edmunds' size, length, speed, and quickness allows him to cover a defensive zone larger than the zone covered by any other middle linebacker in the game.   He doesn't shut down that zone, to be sure, but he's good enough to cause offenses not to attack to the Bills disadvantage.   What that means, in turn, is that each of six pass defenders can concentrate on zones that are smaller than the zones other pass defenders in the league cover.  That, in essence, makes six players on the team better than they would be on any other team.  

 

As I say, there are no stats that proves that, but multiple coaches and players around the league have said that he makes it very difficult to throw into the middle.   They are aware of him, and apparently they reshape their offensive approach in response to his presence.   If that is true, and I can't prove it to you, it would help explain why the Bills pass defense is so good consistently.  If it is true, the Bills may be more than willing to live with Edmunds' shortcomings, when measured against traditional linebacker play, because they're getting better overall defensive play out of the team with Edmunds on the field.   And if it's true, it is true only because Edmunds is a unique physical talent, even though he may not have the particular physical skills that make him a great traditional linebacker, the kind of skills you and I think we can see on the field.   

 

I think Dramond Green is a Hall of Fame player, even though he has no Hall of Fame stats over his career.   He makes a substantial, almost irreplaceable contribution to his team, and they do not play nearly as well without him.  Your analysis would say he's not a great shooter, he not a great scorer, he's not a great rebounder, how can he be a great player?   My answer is that some players are great in non-traditional ways.  

Edited July 4, 2022 by Shaw66

[GunnerBill]

15 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

He definitely has top notch closing burst to ball carriers 

 

that’s about his biggest athletic trait that jumps 

 

Unfortunately not always the best tackler when he gets there.

[Shaw66]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Unfortunately not always the best tackler when he gets there.

He is one of the most unimpressive hitters I've ever seen at middle linebacker.  He gets there and tries to hold on until the hitters arrive, or he watches as someone else makes the tackle.  In his defense, tall guys often are not big hitters, because they don't naturally get low enough to pop tacklers easily.   But it's more than that.   Some guys love to hit; Edmunds doesn't.  

[Brand J]

10 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Not a chance. If they decide not to extend Edmunds they will draft his replacement in round 1 next year. Beane drafts for need in round 1.  I suppose a free agent replacement is possible too but my guess is they draft his replacement.

Sure there is, but it’s contingent on Bernard showing up and showing out. Beane already said he believes he could play both spots. If he proves adept at MLB whenever Edmunds has to step out, it lessens the need of a first round MLB, or a highly sought after FA. In that instance (and if Edmunds doesn’t return) don’t be surprised if he’s paired with Milano in the nickel going into next year. 

[ColoradoBills]

We all know that Edmunds wears the "green dot" helmet and relays the plays in from Frazier setting up the defense.

Does anyone know if it ends there, or does he have audible responsibilities as well?  If so, how good is he at resetting D's?

 

My question is does he have responsibilities that we are not privy to but the coaches and players know about? 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Not a chance. If they decide not to extend Edmunds they will draft his replacement in round 1 next year. Beane drafts for need in round 1.  I suppose a free agent replacement is possible too but my guess is they draft his replacement.

 

 

Man.........if they use another 1st rounder on a defensive player.........making it 6 out of 8 (Allen and Diggs being the exceptions).........this board will be heated.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

We all know that Edmunds wears the "green dot" helmet and relays the plays in from Frazier setting up the defense.

Does anyone know if it ends there, or does he have audible responsibilities as well?  If so, how good is he at resetting D's?

 

My question is does he have responsibilities that we are not privy to but the coaches and players know about? 

I don't know, but I think it's different from the offense.   The defense doesn't call plays; it calls schemes, and the defenders have varying responsibilities within the scheme, depending on what the offense is showing.    That is, the players, individually or in groups, modify their responsibilities depending on what they see.  That's why we always see the safeties repositioning themselves or others.   It's why you see a linebacker or safety tapping a down-four lineman and repositioning him.   

 

At it's simplest level, look at when the play call puts the DBs in man to man.   It may be that given what the offense is about to run, zone would be better, but the defense never flips to zone.    One, it would be too hard to get the change made and be sure everyone got it. Also, it's very hard to understand what the offensive play call is just by how the offense lines up.   The defense already has changed personnel to match the offensive personnel.  But more importantly, if you audible the defense, the offensive play would change, too.   If the offense comes out and sees man, they all know their assignments.   If the defense switches to zone, the assignments change. 

 

I think that's why McDermott loves to rely on disguise.   His philosophy is to gain an advantage by making it difficult for the offense to understand what they're looking at until after the snap.  For McDermott, it's all about that instantaneous edge he gets from disguise - there's a second where the defense knows where it's going and the offense doesn't, and in that second the offense sometimes makes a bad decision, a mistake, or just delays so that the offensive execution is off.   

[ColoradoBills]

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know, but I think it's different from the offense.   The defense doesn't call plays; it calls schemes, and the defenders have varying responsibilities within the scheme, depending on what the offense is showing.    That is, the players, individually or in groups, modify their responsibilities depending on what they see.  That's why we always see the safeties repositioning themselves or others.   It's why you see a linebacker or safety tapping a down-four lineman and repositioning him.   

 

At it's simplest level, look at when the play call puts the DBs in man to man.   It may be that given what the offense is about to run, zone would be better, but the defense never flips to zone.    One, it would be too hard to get the change made and be sure everyone got it. Also, it's very hard to understand what the offensive play call is just by how the offense lines up.   The defense already has changed personnel to match the offensive personnel.  But more importantly, if you audible the defense, the offensive play would change, too.   If the offense comes out and sees man, they all know their assignments.   If the defense switches to zone, the assignments change. 

 

I think that's why McDermott loves to rely on disguise.   His philosophy is to gain an advantage by making it difficult for the offense to understand what they're looking at until after the snap.  For McDermott, it's all about that instantaneous edge he gets from disguise - there's a second where the defense knows where it's going and the offense doesn't, and in that second the offense sometimes makes a bad decision, a mistake, or just delays so that the offensive execution is off.   

 

Thanks Shaw.  So other than being a mouthpiece for the DC he has no other real responsibilities.  I guess I always thought there was more to it.

If they decide to move on from Tre this won't be an issue.

[MasterStrategist]

14 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

“You can take WRs later in the draft and develop them”…. But that same logic doesn’t apply to MLBs. 😅

Obviously a lot of ways to build a roster, but at the end of the day, it's about filling "critical" positions and building best sustainable success under the same cap/budget imposed rules that all teams follow.

 

Doesn't matter if Gabe/Knox/Dawkins (even Motor/Cook/Moss) were all 2nd-4th round selections. or if they were all 1sts.  If we find talent elsewhere in the draft, it shouldn't matter that we haven't invested as much of our 1st round capital into offense.

 

Biggest problem has been serious lack of "pass rush", given how much they have invested into that position group.  It's been our biggest hole, and hopefully with Von and another year of progression of our young DEs, that changes.  

 

Because our biggest opportunity to improve our overall success, is to be able to field a defense capable of slowing down high powered offenses in thr playoffs.  That hasn't happened near enough, we were even fortunate to get past the Colts... Josh and the offense have plenty of weapons, we've been missing elite play from our front 4 to become a championship team.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Thanks Shaw.  So other than being a mouthpiece for the DC he has no other real responsibilities.  I guess I always thought there was more to it.

If they decide to move on from Tre this won't be an issue.

Right.  It's also why he could do it as a rookie.  

 

I think Hyde is the brains of the operation. 

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Maybe you haven't read all that I've written here, so I'll say it once more.   Marino's point, and one that I think has at least some validity, is that the thing that makes him special is invisible - it doesn't show up in any of the stats that are traditionally compiled and are publicly available, although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the team analytics people do quantify it.  The point is that the combination of Edmunds' size, length, speed, and quickness allows him to cover a defensive zone larger than the zone covered by any other middle linebacker in the game.   He doesn't shut down that zone, to be sure, but he's good enough to cause offenses not to attack to the Bills disadvantage.   What that means, in turn, is that each of six pass defenders can concentrate on zones that are smaller than the zones other pass defenders in the league cover.  That, in essence, makes six players on the team better than they would be on any other team.  

 

As I say, there are no stats that proves that, but multiple coaches and players around the league have said that he makes it very difficult to throw into the middle.   They are aware of him, and apparently they reshape their offensive approach in response to his presence.   If that is true, and I can't prove it to you, it would help explain why the Bills pass defense is so good consistently.  If it is true, the Bills may be more than willing to live with Edmunds' shortcomings, when measured against traditional linebacker play, because they're getting better overall defensive play out of the team with Edmunds on the field.   And if it's true, it is true only because Edmunds is a unique physical talent, even though he may not have the particular physical skills that make him a great traditional linebacker, the kind of skills you and I think we can see on the field.   

 

I think Dramond Green is a Hall of Fame player, even though he has no Hall of Fame stats over his career.   He makes a substantial, almost irreplaceable contribution to his team, and they do not play nearly as well without him.  Your analysis would say he's not a great shooter, he not a great scorer, he's not a great rebounder, how can he be a great player?   My answer is that some players are great in non-traditional ways.  

Shaw you make some very good points regarding TE's contributions. The problem is his ability to "take up space" doesn't translate to keeping good offensive teams like KC/ from completing passes.  Hill and Kelce both caught those balls over the middle during those last 2 plays.  They didn't attack outside. I just can't justify Tremaine staying on this team with all his flaws. The negative outweighs the positive. Especially at 15M/ yr.  I'd rather spend that money on Oliver, Knox and future pass rush support. 

[TheWeatherMan]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:29 PM, NewEra said:

This needed its own thread 💯 

People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones!  
 

 

Locked on Bills Podcast: A Case for Tremaine Edmunds > Josh Allen is a God

Edited July 4, 2022 by TheWeatherMan

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

 

Biggest problem has been serious lack of "pass rush", given how much they have invested into that position group.  It's been our biggest hole, and hopefully with Von and another year of progression of our young DEs, that changes.  

 

Because our biggest opportunity to improve our overall success, is to be able to field a defense capable of slowing down high powered offenses in thr playoffs.  That hasn't happened near enough, we were even fortunate to get past the Colts... Josh and the offense have plenty of weapons, we've been missing elite play from our front 4 to become a championship team.

 

 

Thanks for this.   It's the 20,000 foot view, but it's correct.   Obviously, they needed a cornerback in the short-term, between the White injury and Levi likely to (and eventually did) leave.  What the Bills identified early as problem number 1 was better Dline play.   The back seven are holding up very well, thank you very much, but if you want the defense to really hum, you need dlinemen in the QB's face.   QB's need to feel threatened every time they're about to take a snap.   When that happens, the defensive backfield will really take off.  

 

Exit Hughes and Addison, nearing the ends of their useful careers, enter Von Miller.   Settle and Jones arrive, Shaq and Phillips return.  And then there are the youngsters, who should improve.   All in all, if you wanted the team to get better, the way to do it was to make the Dline first-rate. 

 

Back seven is already very good, assuming White is back, and Elam should be a big plus.   Passing game should continue to be good.   Allen alone makes it good, and Diggs means that the Bills can keep putting other guys through the 2 and 3 spots and doesn't really much matter.   Yes, get a really stud #2 and wow!, but that's more of a luxury than a necessity.   Defense is designed to have disruptive Dline, and it's always been underpowered.   

 

Running game simply isn't a priority.   The Bills obviously have been happy so long as they have effective running.   They haven't been built to have a dominant running game, because with Allen, they aren't going to take the ball out of his hands.   What did the Bills do to help the running game?  They drafted a pass-catching running back.  Dominant run game simply isn't a priority. 

 

Oline is always a priority, but given that running isn't a priority, what's needed on the line are guys who can protect Allen.   If Kromer can mold that, anything he can do in the run game is a plus, but again not a necessity.   If Saffold makes a real change in the run game, great! 

 

In any case the needs presented by the Dline were more urgent and more directly related to greater success.   The Bills certainly seem to have addressed that about as well as they could.  And they got a corner and Cook.   They got a legitimate backup quarterback.   They got a quality offensive lineman.  They got a receiver who's likely to contribute.  

 

Pretty tough to quibble about things the Bills MIGHT have done.   What they did - get Miller without getting in the way of addressing other needs, has got to be viewed as a successful off-season for a team with high expectations.   

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Shaw you make some very good points regarding TE's contributions. The problem is his ability to "take up space" doesn't translate to keeping good offensive teams like KC/ from completing passes.  Hill and Kelce both caught those balls over the middle during those last 2 plays.  They didn't attack outside. I just can't justify Tremaine staying on this team with all his flaws. The negative outweighs the positive. Especially at 15M/ yr.  I'd rather spend that money on Oliver, Knox and future pass rush support. 

I agree with your analysis of the problem, but I'm not sure the Bills agree the negative outweighs the positive.   I've said over and over, I don't know if it does, and I don't there's any way for us to know, because there aren't any meaningful stats to measure the positives.  

 

But I agree that if he's valuable as I describe it, it still doesn't help when you're facing elite offenses.   I'm sure KC any longer is the example, but more or less wherever Hill is able to attack the weakness in the middle.  When it's Cooper Kupp and OBJ coming at you, they're going to attack that weakness.   If McDermott Frazier don't have that answer, then I agree that Edmunds' value is less. 

 

What I'm hoping is that Edmunds is just obviously better this season (although I don't know that would mean he's improved - playing MLB in this scheme will get easier if the Dline plays the way McDermott envisions it).  If that happens, the question becomes moot and the Bills will write a big check.  Beyond that, I expect that the Bills' pass defense in those game-end situations will be better because McDermott will create better solutions.  You know that problem number for the Bills' head coaches was "How do we succeed in those 13-second situations?  We must succeed."   And some of that solution will be how to tighten up the middle.  

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones!  
 

 

Locked on Bills Podcast: A Case for Tremaine Edmunds > Josh Allen is a God

Your obsession is flattering 

[3rdand12]

22 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I disagreed with your take even though much of it was true.  

 

Because the problem is that the things he does are NOT all that he was expected to be doing.

 

You don't draft a MLB in round 1 and eventually pay a $12.7M in cap hit to just cover some areas and "cover a gap" in run defense.

 

He's supposed to make plays.

 

In effect, they just replaced Preston Brown with a younger guy who looked better in pads.

 

If they wanted this level of play they could have kept Preston for another couple years and gone from there.  

 

 At least Preston proved he could actually lead the entire NFL in tackles at the position in this defense(as Brown did under McDermott in 2017).   

 

To whom much is given..........much is expected.    He was given the pivotal, playmaking position in the McDefense.

 

The run is funneled to him and offenses are challenged to throw in front of him.   He hasn't turned that into plays.

 

well stated.
 U gave worried about his vision on some plays. I have worried about his instincts. I have worried about how he struggles to shed blocks and or recover when he chose the wrong gap, or chose one at all when should have stacked his player.

 kid drives me nut to be honest, And yet i still hold out hope.
as big as he is I would hope to see him blow up a few blockers each game instead of trying to finesse his attacker