Locked on Bills Podcast: A Case for Tremaine Edmunds

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

 

If there was a...wait a minute...this made me think, emoji, that is what I would have used on this post.  As a long time lurker, I really think this is true.  All of those threads on other players...once they dragged out for years...it seems to turn out that they were not that good.

 

Does anyone have a contrarian example?

 

It is possible that Edmunds could be the first, but....

Gilmore and Woods are the two that stick out in my mind.  Not as heavily debated as Edmunds but fans were split on their opinion of whether they should pony up and re-sign them.  Different regime(s) though who I had less faith in evaluating talent than this one.

[Mat68]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:55 AM, HappyDays said:

If the Bills really thought Edmunds was that important they would have paid him already. Since Beane took over they have paid their core players early. Allen, White, Diggs, Hyde, Poyer, Dawkins - these players all got new contracts a year before it was necessary. With Edmunds they exercised the 5th year option and are seemingly set to let him play it out this season and decide from there. So Beane and the coaches can say whatever they want in their press conferences. Their actions tell us otherwise.

Idk.  Dawkins is the closest imo.  Dawkins is more about positional value imo than outright play.  Diggs, Allen and White are top 5 in the NFL which makes them no brainers.  Hyde and Poyer were given the most money by Buffalo when they came as free agents.  They out performed those deals and most recent ones too.  
 

Edmunds is a unique player.  I think honestly it comes down to Knox or Edmunds.  If Knox becomes the best pass catcher on the team not named Diggs he is paid.  Edmunds would need to have a very good year to justify paying both.  I think they will be more willing to have Mcdermott find guys for his d vs stripping Allen in his prime from his top pass catchers. 

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Edmunds is a unique player.

 

I don't think Edmunds is that unique. He's an elite athlete who has struggled with the mental side of football. That's an entire genre of NFL player.

[ProcessTruster]

Edmunds is there for pass defense.   He is a zone cover guy.   Allows Bills to play two deep safeties the whole game.   He has a gap to cover on run defense, but that's about it.  Bills D is all about denying the play down the field and they do it very well.  Fans go nuts when teams run the ball, but Bills LBs have never been about stuffing the run.   That's the DTs job, and they have better DTs this year than ever.   Edmunds will get a mid level contract and he will take it.  He'll have another shot at another extension in 3-4 years.  He's that young.  He'd be stupid to leave this franchise anytime in the next 3 seasons.  

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't think Edmunds is that unique. He's an elite athlete who has struggled with the mental side of football. That's an entire genre of NFL player.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t think saying that he’s an elite athlete puts into perspective what he is.  There are many elite athletes.  There aren’t nearly as many elite athletes with his height/length/weight playing MLB.  None really. Ever. 
 

If he were 6’2 230 lb I’d agree with you 💯.  But he’s super sized and his size/length is what makes him potentially so much more valuable.  

Agreed about the mental side.  

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t disagree, but I don’t think saying that he’s an elite athlete puts into perspective what he is.  There are many elite athletes.  There aren’t nearly as many elite athletes with his height/length/weight playing MLB.  None really. Ever. 
 

If he were 6’2 230 lb I’d agree with you 💯.  But he’s super sized and his size/length is what makes him potentially so much more valuable.  

Agreed about the mental side.  

Right. Edmunds is very unusual.  He isn't simply an excellent athlete with poor instincts.  He's an exceptional athlete.

 

That doesn't change what Happy Days said about him, because it is true that he underperforms his abilities, at least with respect to the traditional measures. He's an interesting case.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Edmunds is there for pass defense.   He is a zone cover guy.   Allows Bills to play two deep safeties the whole game.   He has a gap to cover on run defense, but that's about it.  Bills D is all about denying the play down the field and they do it very well.  Fans go nuts when teams run the ball, but Bills LBs have never been about stuffing the run.   That's the DTs job, and they have better DTs this year than ever.   Edmunds will get a mid level contract and he will take it.  He'll have another shot at another extension in 3-4 years.  He's that young.  He'd be stupid to leave this franchise anytime in the next 3 seasons.  

 

 

I disagreed with your take even though much of it was true.  

 

Because the problem is that the things he does are NOT all that he was expected to be doing.

 

You don't draft a MLB in round 1 and eventually pay a $12.7M in cap hit to just cover some areas and "cover a gap" in run defense.

 

He's supposed to make plays.

 

In effect, they just replaced Preston Brown with a younger guy who looked better in pads.

 

If they wanted this level of play they could have kept Preston for another couple years and gone from there.  

 

 At least Preston proved he could actually lead the entire NFL in tackles at the position in this defense(as Brown did under McDermott in 2017).   

 

To whom much is given..........much is expected.    He was given the pivotal, playmaking position in the McDefense.

 

The run is funneled to him and offenses are challenged to throw in front of him.   He hasn't turned that into plays.

[newcam2012]

17 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Edmunds is there for pass defense.   He is a zone cover guy.   Allows Bills to play two deep safeties the whole game.   He has a gap to cover on run defense, but that's about it.  Bills D is all about denying the play down the field and they do it very well.  Fans go nuts when teams run the ball, but Bills LBs have never been about stuffing the run.   That's the DTs job, and they have better DTs this year than ever.   Edmunds will get a mid level contract and he will take it.  He'll have another shot at another extension in 3-4 years.  He's that young.  He'd be stupid to leave this franchise anytime in the next 3 seasons.  

You would think a cover guy would make some big plays? Maybe an interception or a huge pass break up? How many big plays has he made in his career? 

 

I'm not convinced Edmunds will be happy with a " mid level" contract. I'm thinking he wants to get paid and is unlikely to take a Bill discount. Some other teams are probably willing to take a chance and pay him more than what the Bill's offer. He's a high draft pick, started every year he's played, and has athletic skills. 

 

I'm ok with a mid level contract because that is all he deserves. Anything more, doesn't justify it based on his play. We have a huge sample size to look at. I doubt Edmunds plays much better or worse this year. He is what he is. Average LB is what I see. 

[HappyDays]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t disagree, but I don’t think saying that he’s an elite athlete puts into perspective what he is.  There are many elite athletes.  There aren’t nearly as many elite athletes with his height/length/weight playing MLB.  None really. Ever. 
 

If he were 6’2 230 lb I’d agree with you 💯.  But he’s super sized and his size/length is what makes him potentially so much more valuable.  

Agreed about the mental side.  

 

I would agree more with his "uniqueness" if he was also a violent player, someone that almost never missed tackles and imposed his will on anyone that got in his way. That violence combined with his range and speed would make the mental flaws easier to ignore. As it is he's just big and fast and exceptionally long. He's capable merely of executing his "invisible role" in this defense, never rising above it.

[NewEra]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Right. Edmunds is very unusual.  He isn't simply an excellent athlete with poor instincts.  He's an exceptional athlete.

 

That doesn't change what Happy Days said about him, because it is true that he underperforms his abilities, at least with respect to the traditional measures. He's an interesting case.

I didn’t say it what he said was untrue…..

 

I said it more should be said than just an “elite athlete”. Physically, he’s much more.  

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I said it more should be said than just an “elite athlete”. Physically, he’s much more.  

 

I'm not sure that's true. If he was an elite physical specimen I would expect him to stop Leonard Fournette behind the LoS when he has him dead to rights, rather than instantly getting driven back. He looks like an elite physical specimen but he doesn't play like it. Like I said he's really big and fast. His length is the one thing I'll say is truly unique about him.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I would agree more with his "uniqueness" if he was also a violent player, someone that almost never missed tackles and imposed his will on anyone that got in his way. That violence combined with his range and speed would make the mental flaws easier to ignore. As it is he's just big and fast and exceptionally long. He's capable merely of executing his "invisible role" in this defense, never rising above it.

His athletic traits don’t make it more difficult for QBs to throw the ball over his head in the zone.  His size does.  His length does.  
 

like I said, I wasn’t disagreeing with your statement, I just think that there is more to be said than him being and elite athlete that has struggled with the mental side of the game. 

[MJS]

Hasn't everything that can be said about Edmunds been said a million times over? Nobody is breaking any new ground here.

 

Just have to wait and see what happens.

[Saxum]

46 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Right. Edmunds is very unusual.  He isn't simply an excellent athlete with poor instincts.  He's an exceptional athlete.

 

That doesn't change what Happy Days said about him, because it is true that he underperforms his abilities, at least with respect to the traditional measures. He's an interesting case.

 

So did Josh according to traditional measures.  He has been described as a unicorn from other Defense Coordinators.  I am wondering what his trade value is.

[BillsFan130]

I like Joe marino, but he is extremely biased towards Edmunds.

 

If i am not mistaken, he was part of his scouting region and he loved Edmunds/gave him a great draft review goiing into the NFL draft.

 

He made some good points in the podcast, but it was extremely one sided.

 

He is trying to correlate Edmunds with the bills great passing defence. But didn't bring up the facts they have 2 pro bowl safeties, one of the best corners in the game, one of the best slot corners in the game, AND didn't even mention that they are always in nickel...

 

Cherry picked stats to make him look good, but didn't pick any stats that made him look bad,and just casually brought up some of his flaws...

 

I love joe, but thought it was a very biased podcast.

Edited July 3, 2022 by BillsFan130

[SDS]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Right. Edmunds is very unusual.  He isn't simply an excellent athlete with poor instincts.  He's an exceptional athlete.

 

That doesn't change what Happy Days said about him, because it is true that he underperforms his abilities, at least with respect to the traditional measures. He's an interesting case.

other than his draft review, what makes you say he’s an exceptional athlete? I watch every game and I’m never impressed by any particular display of exceptional athleticism by him.

 

I see him chase players from behind and jump on top of the pile, usually after failing to shed a block.

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, SDS said:

other than his draft review, what makes you say he’s an exceptional athlete? I watch every game and I’m never impressed by any particular display of exceptional athleticism by him.

 

I see him chase players from behind and jump on top of the pile, usually after failing to shed a block.

He definitely has top notch closing burst to ball carriers 

 

that’s about his biggest athletic trait that jumps 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, SDS said:

other than his draft review, what makes you say he’s an exceptional athlete? I watch every game and I’m never impressed by any particular display of exceptional athleticism by him.

 

I see him chase players from behind and jump on top of the pile, usually after failing to shed a block.

There are no guys in the league, so far as I know, that combine his size, including his wingspan, and his speed and his quickness.  He is quite unusual in that regard.  In fact, i think he is unique in that regard.  

[Brand J]

Edmunds IS an elite athlete based on testing, but as SDS said, he doesn’t maximize those athletic gifts. Part of that is his lack of play and processing speed, the other is just a lack of physicality or “dog.”
The Leonard Fournette play was brought up, but I think this play against #25 from the Patriots was even more egregious: Edmunds Blitz Attempt

I’ve never seen a LB with a full head of steam, much less one with Edmunds size, get completely stonewalled on a blitz by a flat-footed RB. He should’ve sent that guy flying into Mac Jones’s lap. Edmunds struggles to get off the blocks of non traditional TEs (big WRs) as well. If he had the temperament of a Ray Lewis, John Randle, Mike Singletary, etc., we’d probably want him to cash in on a big payday because he’d probably make more plays just being nastier. But that’s not who he is and that temperament isn’t something he’ll ever bring.

Edited July 4, 2022 by JayBaller10

[SDS]

42 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

There are no guys in the league, so far as I know, that combine his size, including his wingspan, and his speed and his quickness.  He is quite unusual in that regard.  In fact, i think he is unique in that regard.  

nothing you have said relates to what anyone sees on the field. I get his combine measurements. At some point I would like to see it in game. The number of times I say “only he could make that play” is so infrequent, if ever, that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.