Locked on Bills Podcast: A Case for Tremaine Edmunds

[SDS]

11 hours ago, TC in St. Louis said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjyNXYJVBJY

 

Joe Marino gets into some depth about Edmunds.  If you don't listen to "Locked on Bills," you should give it a try.  

Why not take the time to differentiate this topic and focus the title on the podcast? When you name it something that is indistinguishable from the other topic, then what’s the point?

[BillsFan130]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

If the Bills really thought Edmunds was that important they would have paid him already. Since Beane took over they have paid their core players early. Allen, White, Diggs, Hyde, Poyer, Dawkins - these players all got new contracts a year before it was necessary. With Edmunds they exercised the 5th year option and are seemingly set to let him play it out this season and decide from there. So Beane and the coaches can say whatever they want in their press conferences. Their actions tell us otherwise.

Bingo. Been saying this all along.

 

Basically picking up his 5th year option means, "he's ok, we would like to see more and he's got potential to get better ".

 

If they truly thought he was the cornerstone player, he would have been extended already as you mentioned.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, I've of two minds about this.   First, I'd say you're correct.   If his impact is as great as Marino suggests, then he IS as valuable as the highest paid linebackers, just in a different way.   If he's a unicorn who affects the game as he say, yes, you pay him. 

 

However, Beane may have decided to pay him already, but in their overall cap-strategy it may have been better to wait a year to pay him.  I don't capology, so I can't really say, but it certainly may be the case.  Maybe they were going to extend Edmunds until it became possible to get Miller, and that may have forced the Bills to wait a year on Edmunds.   I don't think we can know the answer to that. 

 

Could be too that Beane first wants the dust to settle on the Proyer contract situation, maybe a Knox extension and any late unexpected signings either due to some team releasing a good player that fills a need Sept 1st or Bills need to sign someone due to training camp injury. Maybe he signs a new deal right before week one once team has a better handle on $$ available.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

 

Here’s a perfect example where the arms don’t help because they’re attached to a body that is in the wrong spot:

 

https://www.chiefs.com/video/touchdown-travis-kelce-uses-double-move-on-tremaine-edmunds

 

I know it’s the best tight end in football but it’s just an example of what Edmunds does far too often. 

 

 

That's a great example of Edmunds lack of instincts and just general inability to think quickly on his feet.

 

He jumps HARD inside even though he should know there is no chance that Mahomes would ever throw that ball.    Ever.    He took the most egregious of cheese like he was a preseason camp body MLB. 

 

[Mr. WEO]

make it stop...

 

 

if it takes this many years and this many threads to decide whether a guy is worth pay...he probably isn't

[Brand J]

53 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That's a great example of Edmunds lack of instincts and just general inability to think quickly on his feet.

 

He jumps HARD inside even though he should know there is no chance that Mahomes would ever throw that ball.    Ever.    He took the most egregious of cheese like he was a preseason camp body MLB. 

 

Maybe Edmunds doesn’t know the defense well enough to know that his teammate, Taron Johnson, is playing a zone to his immediate left and would light Kelce up if he was to continue that route. It’s just lack of awareness and responsibility on Edmunds’ part. His lack of instinct didn’t even matter on that particular play. You’ve gotta know where your help is and where it isn’t and he’s just not a natural field general despite what some others would have you believe. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

So you're saying Edmunds plays like a little girl? Jeez man, I've criticized him, but take it easy.

I started by pointing out it was not a  perfect analogy, but also have you watched middle school basketball lately? It would not be  nearly the insult you think it is. 🙂

[benderbender]

Happy for Joe Marino to get some extra clicks. I've enjoyed his podcast for a few years now and he is actually willing to reply to your questions directly. He's tried to sound like he's taking a middle ground on Edmunds which is overly optimistic in my opinion. 

 

Please don't get me wrong, I would love for Tremaine to become something more. Nothing would make me happier than for our revamped DL to wreak so much havoc that all he has to do is concentrate on his read/gaps/fits. What the podcast highlighted, perhaps unintentionally, is the pro side of the argument rests solely on two factors: he's got great length/speed and he's not easily replaceable. That's it. The cons are many:

1. he can't shed a block by a slot WR
2. he's not good at blitzing
3. for his touted wingspan, he doesn't have impressive numbers of passes defended or batted down
4. for his role--that he's been in for multiple seasons--when he misdiagnoses a play its disastrous. Maybe we're expecting too much from him but that would be a conceit that the coaching staff expects too much. 
5. he's had these issues since he was drafted. Either he doesn't spend any time working on them, or he's reached his ceiling

I think Marino had the right way to approach his contract, if he doesn't make strides and is the same player you pay him as such and tell him to test the market but we have a locker for him if he wants one. Maybe he walks and we recoup a compensatory pick. If he shows some block shedding skills, bats down passes, and channels Von Miller to blitz like a banshee, you pay him to stay. 

[Don Otreply]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

make it stop...

 

 

if it takes this many years and this many threads to decide whether a guy is worth pay...he probably isn't

  All this noise about his re-signing is likely already settled business for OBD, and is not more than a timing issue with multiple contracts being on the table currently, or some such a thing.  He may walk after this season, he may be making 15 million a year give or take, for three ish years after this season, no one here knows for certain, but back to the OP’s initial point, Marino lays it out in a reasonable fashion, with TE’s pluses and minuses in plain view…, not much else to say about the topic. My gut feeling is he gets re-signed at whatever rate that is I don’t care so much, the cap is “just accounting”  and totally manipulated at need. 

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

  All this noise about his re-signing is likely already settled business for OBD

 

I really don't think it is. I think they are in genuine wait and see mode. 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I really don't think it is. I think they are in genuine wait and see mode. 

“Settled” in which they know what they are willing to pay relevant to performance goals being met/ the Poyer(sp) outcome, hence, “or some such a thing” , OBD knows the steps they will take going forward concerning TE and Poyer(sp) 

[Sharky7337]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:26 AM, TC in St. Louis said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjyNXYJVBJY

 

Joe Marino gets into some depth about Edmunds.  If you don't listen to "Locked on Bills," you should give it a try.  

Joe really usually does a nice iob. This one is not one of his better.  It's more of a, why you should not hate Tremaine and that's OK! But it's not super insightful.

 

I mean we get it, they said he's a leader, he's got a lot on his plate, he's young, and he's a physical specimen.

 

This is all stuff we already know. Would have been cool to see how he compares in his last few seasons to his rookie scouting report or something.

 

I listen to it everyday and enjoy it but I was a little left with wanting something more  then a lecture on why I should appreciate Tremaine vs more factual stuff. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Sharky7337

[strive_for_five_guy]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I really don't think it is. I think they are in genuine wait and see mode. 

And it might be this way with some of the other impending free agents like Poyer and Knox.  If everyone balls out, probably can’t retain everyone.  If not, then that’s their answer of who to try and retain.  I personally think Edmunds is going to have his best year yet, given the improved D-Line talent in front of him, it’s a contract year, and he’s in his prime.

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, benderbender said:

Happy for Joe Marino to get some extra clicks. I've enjoyed his podcast for a few years now and he is actually willing to reply to your questions directly. He's tried to sound like he's taking a middle ground on Edmunds which is overly optimistic in my opinion. 

 

Please don't get me wrong, I would love for Tremaine to become something more. Nothing would make me happier than for our revamped DL to wreak so much havoc that all he has to do is concentrate on his read/gaps/fits. What the podcast highlighted, perhaps unintentionally, is the pro side of the argument rests solely on two factors: he's got great length/speed and he's not easily replaceable. That's it. The cons are many:

1. he can't shed a block by a slot WR
2. he's not good at blitzing
3. for his touted wingspan, he doesn't have impressive numbers of passes defended or batted down
4. for his role--that he's been in for multiple seasons--when he misdiagnoses a play its disastrous. Maybe we're expecting too much from him but that would be a conceit that the coaching staff expects too much. 
5. he's had these issues since he was drafted. Either he doesn't spend any time working on them, or he's reached his ceiling

I think Marino had the right way to approach his contract, if he doesn't make strides and is the same player you pay him as such and tell him to test the market but we have a locker for him if he wants one. Maybe he walks and we recoup a compensatory pick. If he shows some block shedding skills, bats down passes, and channels Von Miller to blitz like a banshee, you pay him to stay. 

I really don't know where the Bills are going with Edmunds, but continuing to read an interesting collection of posts from smart people suggests to me that they will move on from Edmunds unless he has a big year.  

 

I would add to your list that for all his size and speed, he is not an impressive hitter.  He rarely blows up anyone.  

 

Marino's point, and the argument I've been fleshing out, is all of those complaints add up to the same thing: he isn't a great, traditional linebacker.  His value, if Marino is correct, is invisible.   His value, if Marino is correct comes from things that the opponent doesn't do when he's on the field.   

 

It's like how a shut down corner usually has very few interceptions.  Why?  Because the offense doesn't throw in his direction.   The value of the guy is not found in a traditional measure of quality corner play; the shut down corner's value is that he takes away more than 1/11 of the field, which means the other ten each have less than 1/11th to defend.  

 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Shaw66

[LeGOATski]

47 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said:

Joe really usually does a nice iob. This one is not one of his better.  It's more of a, why you should not hate Tremaine and that's OK! But it's not super insightful.

 

I mean we get it, they said he's a leader, he's got a lot on his plate, he's young, and he's a physical specimen.

 

This is all stuff we already know. Would have been cool to see how he compares in his last few seasons to his rookie scouting report or something.

 

I listen to it everyday and enjoy it but I was a little left with wanting something more  then a lecture on why I should appreciate Tremaine vs more factual stuff. 

You didn't like the factual stats comparing Edmunds to his contemporaries?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

And it might be this way with some of the other impending free agents like Poyer and Knox.  If everyone balls out, probably can’t retain everyone.  If not, then that’s their answer of who to try and retain.  I personally think Edmunds is going to have his best year yet, given the improved D-Line talent in front of him, it’s a contract year, and he’s in his prime.

 

I agree. I think they have Ed Oliver in "likely retain" territory but I think the rest of those guys (add Devin too) are genuine wait and sees.

[FireChans]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

make it stop...

 

 

if it takes this many years and this many threads to decide whether a guy is worth pay...he probably isn't

This is correct.

 

The players that ALWAYS have topics about them on TBD are pretty much not good.

Trent

Maybin

Losman

Whitner

McKelvin

EJ

Brandon Reilly

Edmunds

 

Millions of topics. Not good players.

 

When was the last “Tre White” topic? Probably 2 years ago. Because he’s a good player and it’s obvious to everyone.

 

When was the last “Milano” topic? Again, probably 2 years ago, because he’s good and we all know this.

 

Edmunds is mediocre. Time to accept it.

Edited July 3, 2022 by FireChans

[TC in St. Louis]

18 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

let me ask you 

 

How many Edmunds threads do we need?

 

Search Edmunds and you will see half a dozen or more 

 

Oh look. Front Page 

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/239576-can-we-talk-about-tremaine-edmunds/page/16/#comment-7781845

 

 

I just shared some new information about the Joe Marino podcast from 3 days ago.  If you want to search through all those other topics, go right ahead.  Does it cost people anything to look at new information without having to scroll through posts created in April?  

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

His value, if Marino is correct, is invisible.   His value, if Marino is correct comes from things that the opponent doesn't do when he's on the field.   

 

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I really don't think it is. I think they are in genuine wait and see mode. 

 

 

If he takes that next step..........and to this point, starting to play "instinctively" has proven to be a huge step too far for him..........he would be an All Pro........then the question is do they pay him $20M per year?    

 

For reference, the "Legion of Boom" Seahawks paid their back 7 big bucks at the expense of the rest of the team and look where that lead them to.

 

If he stays where he was at in 2021..........I don't see him being retained even for Milano money.   

 

So there is, or at least "should be", a pretty narrow runway to him landing long term deal in Buffalo, IMO.