Jauronimo Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 6 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Sure, I’ll print it…if I can get my time machine to visit 1988. Jeesh dude, think twice: Once for clarity, twice to save the planet. I’ll PDF it and move the laptop near the fridge. Thats the post of the day. The bar usually isn't set very high down here, but thats a winner. 2 1
FireChans Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 19 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Please go talk to an OB. Or any expert in the field. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. That’s what it is, that’s what it’s called. The treatment for most miscarriages is an abortion to remove the tissue and prevent illness. Any law that governs abortions also governs miscarriages and they are no longer required to differentiate between the two. I have been living this nightmare for four years, believe me, I know what I am talking about. Seriously, just please either consult an OB or read any of the hundreds of examples that are easily available of women whose lives were endangered by a miscarriage because abortion laws interfered with their treatment. Where are you located?
ChiGoose Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 Just now, FireChans said: Where are you located? Thankfully, I live in Chicago, where we have had little issue getting treatment for my wife’s five miscarriages. But the experience has made me really read up on miscarriages, the law, and abortion. Her first miscarriage was ectopic and while I was in the waiting room while she got a D&C for a different miscarriage, I read an article about a proposed law in Ohio that would have required doctors to re-implant an ectopic pregnancy, a procedure that does not exist. 1
Andy1 Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 When it comes to morality, hypocrites are everywhere, including in the church. The louder people shout about an issue, the more likely they are a hypocrite about it.
SCBills Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 39 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Thankfully, I live in Chicago, where we have had little issue getting treatment for my wife’s five miscarriages. But the experience has made me really read up on miscarriages, the law, and abortion. Her first miscarriage was ectopic and while I was in the waiting room while she got a D&C for a different miscarriage, I read an article about a proposed law in Ohio that would have required doctors to re-implant an ectopic pregnancy, a procedure that does not exist. Can you give any examples of this actually happening, or are these just “proposed laws” of which people have only speculated upon the ramifications? 1
FireChans Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 56 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Thankfully, I live in Chicago, where we have had little issue getting treatment for my wife’s five miscarriages. But the experience has made me really read up on miscarriages, the law, and abortion. Her first miscarriage was ectopic and while I was in the waiting room while she got a D&C for a different miscarriage, I read an article about a proposed law in Ohio that would have required doctors to re-implant an ectopic pregnancy, a procedure that does not exist. So it wasn't an existing law? I'd honestly really love to see examples of interpretation of abortion laws preventing D&C's for incomplete abortions. Hard to find.
B-Man Posted June 27, 2022 Author Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, ChiGoose said: Please go talk to an OB. Or any expert in the field. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. That’s what it is, that’s what it’s called. The treatment for most miscarriages is an abortion to remove the tissue and prevent illness. Any law that governs abortions also governs miscarriages and they are no longer required to differentiate between the two. I have been living this nightmare for four years, believe me, I know what I am talking about. Seriously, just please either consult an OB or read any of the hundreds of examples that are easily available of women whose lives were endangered by a miscarriage because abortion laws interfered with their treatment. Keep repeating the same falsehood.......it won't make it so. I personally have been present at over 2000 births, c-section and natural, the vast majority successful, thank God, but a few where the baby died. One night on the med surg floor I was running, a 5 month pregnant woman (in for a different medical reason) miscarried right into my hands before we could move her. I am tired of non-health care "experts" like you goose, trying to tell me what an abortion is or isn't A miscarriage is called a spontaneous abortion, it is apparent that you do not understand what the word spontaneous means. The bottom line is that your failure to understand what the obvious difference in the two is is really a testament to your obstinance. By the way I "Consulted" with my wife who has been an O.B./ Labor&Delivery nurse for over 30 years and she agrees that you are ignoring the forest for the trees Nitpicking about terms rather than seeing that Abortion is NOT outlawed, but left up to the ordinary voters. That seems to worry you, I wonder why ? . . Edited June 28, 2022 by B-Man 2
Gene Frenkle Posted June 27, 2022 Posted June 27, 2022 6 hours ago, SCBills said: I don’t know how I feel about denying Communion to individuals with opinions counter to the Church, but I do agree with denying it to people like Biden and Pelosi, supposed Catholics, who are actively working to make America have the most aggressive abortion access in the entire world … something completely counter to the churches teachings. We're making crackers illegal now??? Wtf
Andy1 Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 A new poll today: 54% oppose the courts decision, 40% support overturning Roe. That 54% number will only go up over time in the future as social media and news stories, etc come out about rape victims being forced to become mothers, poor women not having access to abortion in other states that wealthy women have, women suffering or dying from black market abortion services, etc. People do not remember the struggles of young women before Roe. Those who forget history are bound to repeat it. Hopefully republican states take a moderate approach. It may be wise politically.
Orlando Buffalo Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 5 hours ago, cle23 said: My original comment was in regards to someone saying they were fine with the Catholic Church denying people like Biden and Pelosi communion. I said at that point, it would obviously be political. You can't pick out one point and make that your rallying cry, and then ignore all other things. And I think the church should accept people with varying backgrounds as people change and improve all the time, but what makes their stance on this different from all the other people they serve who have dark backgrounds? The Catholic Church has no business being high and mighty in regards to the unborn when they (not all obviously) actively engaged in sexual abuse on tens of thousands of living, breathing children, and the higher ups knew and covered it up. My whole premise is they can do and feel as they like within the law, but when they start injecting themselves into politics, by definition, that changes their tax exempt status. Once again your statement is that denying communion is political because they praise something that is decidedly anti Catholic. If they publicly praise people who are satanic would that be political also? The argument about abortion to anyone who is not a political hack of the highest order is not political but a discussion about the rights of the mother vs the rights of the baby. As I stated this is not a political argument, which is why both liberal and conservative Catholics in general are pleased with the outcome
cle23 Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: Once again your statement is that denying communion is political because they praise something that is decidedly anti Catholic. If they publicly praise people who are satanic would that be political also? The argument about abortion to anyone who is not a political hack of the highest order is not political but a discussion about the rights of the mother vs the rights of the baby. As I stated this is not a political argument, which is why both liberal and conservative Catholics in general are pleased with the outcome And again, it is political because this is the only issue they stand like this against. Do they ask every person who enters what their beliefs are? Are they questioned in regards to their pasts? What happened to a vast majority of the Catholic priests accused of child sexual assault? Nothing. In fact, many were promoted or simply moved elsewhere after the accusations where they could just simply start over on a new group of kids. If they single out 2 politicians as suggested, and no one else, that is 100% political. Edited June 28, 2022 by cle23 1
ChiGoose Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 4 hours ago, SCBills said: Can you give any examples of this actually happening, or are these just “proposed laws” of which people have only speculated upon the ramifications? Here are some examples based on current laws, laws pre-Roe, and laws in other countries to give an example of the potential dangers being faced here from lack of access to abortions or unclear / ambiguous abortion laws. Connecticut (pre-Roe): Woman dies from at-home abortion Quote Ms. Santoro had been fearful of what her estranged and violent husband would do to her if he discovered she was pregnant with a lover’s child. Her boyfriend attempted to perform an abortion on Ms. Santoro, accidentally killing her in the process. Washington (pre-Roe): Woman dies from botched abortion Quote On February 8, 1967, the body of 24-year-old Raisa Trytiak, a Seattle bank employee and former University of Washington student, was found in a garbage dump in Snohomish County. The young woman, who lived with her parents, had died from an embolism caused by a botched abortion. She had been six months pregnant. A different woman dies from a botched abortion Quote One month after Raisa Trytiak’s fatal abortion, Elizabeth Zack Staley died in Olympia. She was 22 years old and newly married. Her husband, Ronald Jae Staley, and a 19-year-old female friend evidently performed the botched surgery. At least 13 women died from botched abortions in the Seattle area between 1945 and 1969 Quote We have scoured the Seattle Times and other newspapers and have found thirteen reported fatalities between 1945 and 1969. This is by no means a complete count. Newspapers reported only cases that came from the police blotter involving criminal charges and did not report all of them. Other cases never came to the attention of the police. Medical authorities underreported abortion deaths, missing some, reluctant to embarrass families by reporting others. Texas: Woman with ectopic pregnancy is turned down by doctors, drives 12 hours for treatment Quote The patient ended up driving between 12 and 15 hours to a hospital in New Mexico, Lachenauer said, where she was able to terminate her pregnancy. That kind of delay could cost patients their lives, said Alan Peaceman, a maternal fetal medicine professor at Northwestern University’s Feinberg School of Medicine who specializes in high-risk cases and fetal anomalies. Patients who are miscarrying cannot get a pharmacy to fill their prescription Quote Dr. Lauren Thaxton, an OB-GYN and assistant professor at the Dell Medical School at the University of Texas-Austin, has already heard about local patients who have been miscarrying, and couldn't get a pharmacy to fill their misoprostol prescription. "The pharmacy has said, 'We don't know whether or not you might be using this medication for the purposes of abortion,'" she said. Pharmacy will no longer provide methotrexate Quote At least several OB-GYNs in the Austin area received a letter from a pharmacy in late 2021 saying it would no longer fill the drug methotrexate in the case of ectopic pregnancy, citing the recent Texas laws, said Dr. Charlie Brown, an Austin-based obstetrician-gynecologist who provided a copy to KHN. Methotrexate also is listed in the Texas law passed last year. Woman has a miscarriage on wedding day but has to travel out of state for treatment Quote In the emergency room on their wedding night, Anna and Scott say the doctors appeared nervous and concerned but could do little to help them…. ...But even through tears, Anna says she knows she was lucky to have several thousand dollars in savings to cover the cost — and to get an appointment in Colorado at all. Despite the fetus being incompatible with life, woman has to leave the state for treatment Quote She had flown to Kansas for an abortion that was outlawed in her home state, though she and her doctor considered it medically appropriate. Scans had shown the fetus inside her had a lethal form of skeletal dysplasia. If it survived childbirth, which was extremely unlikely, doctors expected the newborn to soon suffocate from under-developed lungs. The baby’s bones would be so brittle, they would break just from being held. Malta: American Woman experiences partial miscarriage and has to be airlifted out of the country for treatment Quote A pregnant American woman who suffered an incomplete miscarriage while vacationing in Malta will be airlifted to a Spanish island on Thursday for a procedure to prevent infection because Maltese law prohibits abortion under any circumstances, the woman's partner said. Jay Weeldreyer told The Associated Press by phone from a hospital in the island nation that his partner, Andrea Prudente, is at risk of a life-threatening infection if the fetal tissue isn’t promptly removed. Poland: Woman dies in Poland after doctors refused to perform abortion when the fetus's heart stopped beating Quote The first foetus died in the womb on 23 December, but doctors refused to remove it, quoting the current abortion legislation, and Agnieszka’s family claim “her state quickly deteriorated”. The hospital waited until the heartbeat of the second twin also stopped a week later, and then waited a further two days before terminating the pregnancy on 31 December. Agnieszka died on 25 January after weeks of deteriorating health. Another woman died in Poland after doctors were unsure if they could perform an abortion under the current law Quote “For now, because of the abortion law, I have to stay in bed and they can’t do anything,” Izabela – whose surname has not been made public– wrote in a text message to her mother after being admitted to a hospital in Pszczyna, south-western Poland. “Alternatively, they will wait for the baby to die or for something to start happening. If it doesn’t, then great, I can expect sepsis.” She died the next morning at 07:39am. Ireland: Woman dies in Ireland during miscarriage after doctors refused to perform an abortion Quote Savita Halappanavar's family said she asked several times for her pregnancy to be terminated because she had severe back pain and was miscarrying. Her husband told the BBC that it was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat. Ms Halappanavar's death, on 28 October, is the subject of two investigations. Nicaragua: Woman with ectopic pregnancy dies after treatment refused because of abortion ban Quote The fertilised egg had implanted itself outside her womb and the embryo, at about six weeks old, could not survive but was threatening her life: Reyes was bleeding to death. Doctors delayed treatment, fearful of the repercussions of the ban on therapeutic abortions that had been introduced only months earlier Dominican Republic: Pregnant 16 year old with cancer dies after being denied treatment due to pregnancy Quote Doctors were hesitant to give her chemotherapy because such treatment could terminate the pregnancy – a violation of the Dominican Constitution, which bans abortion. Some 20 days after she was admitted to the hospital, she finally started receiving treatment. She died Friday, a hospital official said. Generally: Abortion laws complicate treatment for pregnant women with cancer Quote Katherine Van Loon, a specialist in gastrointestinal cancers at UCSF who helped write the 2020 review, said that pelvic radiation for rectal cancer is one such treatment that can’t safely be done on pregnant women because it would damage the fetus. “It puts us in a situation of withholding necessary treatments to preserve a mother’s health if we can’t terminate a pregnancy that is interfering with our ability to deliver curative therapy,” she said. Ideally, doctors treating pregnant cancer patients in situations like these would be able to discuss the risks and benefits of all medical options — terminating the pregnancy and starting treatment, or waiting to treat the cancer until later in the pregnancy or until the baby is born — and let the mother choose. But abortion restrictions curtail that choice. Study finds states with more restrictive abortion laws had higher rates of maternal mortality Quote The researchers found that states with the higher score of abortion policy composite index had a 7% increase in total maternal mortality compared with states with lower abortion policy composite index. Among individual abortion policies, states with a licensed physician requirement had a 51% higher total maternal mortality and a 35% higher maternal mortality (i.e. a death during pregnancy or within 42 days of being pregnant), and restrictions on state Medicaid funding for abortion was associated with a 29% higher total maternal mortality. Colorado study finds that banning abortion nationwide would lead to a 21% increase in pregnancy-related deaths Quote Banning abortion nationwide would lead to a 21% increase in the number of pregnancy-related deaths overall and a 33% increase among Black women, according to new CU Boulder research. Published Oct. 25 in the journal Demography, the study estimates only the portion of increased deaths that would be due to complications of being pregnant and of delivering a baby. Any increased death due to unsafe abortions or attempted abortions would be in addition to these estimates. Avoiding these kinds of negative externalities requires very well informed legislatures who write tight laws with little to no ambiguity. Without any kinds of guardrails now, I sincerely doubt that is the world that women will find themselves in.
B-Man Posted June 28, 2022 Author Posted June 28, 2022 For the posters on the board with actual interest in the truth. FACT CHECK: The Truth About Miscarriages, Ectopic Pregnancies, and the End of Roe v. Wade BY PAULA BOLYARD JUNE 27, 2022 I can’t recall a time when the mainstream media, celebrities, and left-wing types have been so dishonest about a public policy issue. I’m referring to the hysterical claims that the Dobbs decision—which sent the issue of regulating abortion back to the states—would somehow criminalize women who have miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies. Here’s one such assertion from a blue-check “law professor”: Another (sound familiar ?) This activist claims that women will be arrested for having miscarriages. She instructs them on how to “self-manage” their abortions by popping a bunch of pills. Oh, and if they have to go to the emergency room, “Don’t say s**t. You’re having a miscarriage because they don’t know the difference.” Sadly, a lot of women are buying these lies. But here’s the truth: There is no law, nor will there ever be, that punishes women whose babies die through no fault of their own or who develop an ectopic pregnancy or a septic uterus. (YOU WANT AN EXPERT OPINION?) Dr. Brent Boles, a Tennessee OB-GYN, noted that in 30 years of practice he has never had to intentionally kill a baby to save the life of a mother. And even if he would have at some point been faced with that decision, “saving women with miscarriages and ectopics also isn’t abortion.” (but what does he know?) Lots of disinformation about ectopic and miscarriage care, and lots of use of the term ‘septic uterus’. Where do the majority of septic uteri come from? In 30 years of doing GYN, the vast majority of septic uteri I have cared for were post-abortion complications. MORE: Dr. Christina Francis, a board-certified OB-GYN, said in a recent video: “Let’s be clear about one thing: Treating ectopic pregnancies or miscarriages is not an abortion. I think it’s really important that we clear up this misconception that’s out there that if a state outlaws abortion, it will prevent physicians like me from taking care of women with ectopic pregnancies or miscarriages.” The bottom line: The Dobbs decision and the end of Roe v. Wade will not criminalize women who suffer miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies. https://pjmedia.com/columns/paula-bolyard/2022/06/27/fact-check-the-truth-about-miscarriages-ectopic-pregnancies-and-the-end-of-roe-v-wade-n1608551 . 1
SCBills Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Here are some examples based on current laws, laws pre-Roe, and laws in other countries to give an example of the potential dangers being faced here from lack of access to abortions or unclear / ambiguous abortion laws. Connecticut (pre-Roe): Woman dies from at-home abortion Washington (pre-Roe): Woman dies from botched abortion A different woman dies from a botched abortion At least 13 women died from botched abortions in the Seattle area between 1945 and 1969 Texas: Woman with ectopic pregnancy is turned down by doctors, drives 12 hours for treatment Patients who are miscarrying cannot get a pharmacy to fill their prescription Pharmacy will no longer provide methotrexate Woman has a miscarriage on wedding day but has to travel out of state for treatment Despite the fetus being incompatible with life, woman has to leave the state for treatment Malta: American Woman experiences partial miscarriage and has to be airlifted out of the country for treatment Poland: Woman dies in Poland after doctors refused to perform abortion when the fetus's heart stopped beating Another woman died in Poland after doctors were unsure if they could perform an abortion under the current law Ireland: Woman dies in Ireland during miscarriage after doctors refused to perform an abortion Nicaragua: Woman with ectopic pregnancy dies after treatment refused because of abortion ban Dominican Republic: Pregnant 16 year old with cancer dies after being denied treatment due to pregnancy Generally: Abortion laws complicate treatment for pregnant women with cancer Study finds states with more restrictive abortion laws had higher rates of maternal mortality Colorado study finds that banning abortion nationwide would lead to a 21% increase in pregnancy-related deaths Avoiding these kinds of negative externalities requires very well informed legislatures who write tight laws with little to no ambiguity. Without any kinds of guardrails now, I sincerely doubt that is the world that women will find themselves in. Did you just hit me with a bunch of pre-Roe stories, as if medical advances/technology have remained stagnant in these past decades and the current laws will be exactly the same? Only to follow those examples up with a bunch of stories from other countries? I appreciate the links and effort, but that’s not a serious response. Edited June 28, 2022 by SCBills 1
Doc Brown Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Andy1 said: A new poll today: 54% oppose the courts decision, 40% support overturning Roe. That 54% number will only go up over time in the future as social media and news stories, etc come out about rape victims being forced to become mothers, poor women not having access to abortion in other states that wealthy women have, women suffering or dying from black market abortion services, etc. People do not remember the struggles of young women before Roe. Those who forget history are bound to repeat it. Hopefully republican states take a moderate approach. It may be wise politically. You make a great case of why it should be left up to the voters. 2
Doc Brown Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 7 hours ago, FireChans said: The non-college educated are generally not seeking reimbursement for college education loans to the best of my knowledge. About 37% of student loan debt is amongst those who didn't graduate from four year schools so are they considered non-college educated? 2
ChiGoose Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, SCBills said: Did you just hit me with a bunch of pre-Roe stories, as if medical advances/technology have remained stagnant in these past decades and the current laws will be exactly the same? Only to follow those examples up with a bunch of stories from other countries? I appreciate the links and effort, but that’s not a serious response. The Texas stories are pretty recent and generally deal with their recent abortion law. What we are looking at is a debate about how competent state legislatures are at understanding the science and nuance around pregnancy. Given the examples and legislatures in general, it’s hard to feel optimistic about that.
ALF Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot makes profane attack on SCOTUS at Pride event: 'F--- Clarence Thomas' Lori Lightfoot defended her vulgar attack on Justice Thomas with a tweet: 'I said what I said' https://www.foxnews.com/politics/lori-lightfoot-chicago-clarence-thomas-profanity I think black people are starting to like him 🙂 1
FireChans Posted June 28, 2022 Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Doc Brown said: About 37% of student loan debt is amongst those who didn't graduate from four year schools so are they considered non-college educated? I don’t know, but 63% of them are. Don’t they usually put them in the “some college” category? Edited June 28, 2022 by FireChans
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