Epenesa, Ford & Moss -Are they outta here?

[BillsFanForever19]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:10 AM, newcam2012 said:

What do you see in Epanesa? 

 

Honestly, it's completely beside the point. You don't cut a 2nd Round Pick after 2 seasons unless the guy is just plain not getting the playbook or has serious character issues. You have to give them at least 3 years.

 

Look at Cody Ford. As bad as he's looked, he got 3 years and he may very well get 4. You don't wash your hands of premium investments on inexpensive rookie deals without giving them every chance to succeed and justify your investment.

 

Epenesa hasn't impressed. But he hasn't been so awful that you can completely close the book on the idea that he could still take steps forward this early in his career.

 

Beyond that, just from a roster standpoint, we only have 5 Edge Rushers between Von Miller, Greg Rousseau, AJ Epenesa, Boogie Basham, and Shaq Lawson (unless you have high hopes for career PS Player Mike Love or UDFA's Kingsley Jonathan and Daniel Joseph).

 

Last season, we kept 6 on the active roster. If they had no faith in Epenesa's potential for growth or entertained the idea they'd move on him from that quickly, they'd have Drafted another DE or added another in Free Agency.

Edited June 26, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[Shake_My_Head]

No.

[ColoradoBills]

AJ and Boogie will be given every chance to become the top 2 rotational DEs.

If one can't cut it Lawson will get the role.  No way is AJ getting cut or traded this year.

Worse case he is the 5th DE.

 

Moss is in head-to-head competition with Duke Johnson and the winner makes the team IMO.

Once Cook gets his "sea legs" the winner won't even be dressing for games unless there's an injury.

Bills are not dressing 4 RBs and a FB.  This of course is dependent on Taiwan Jones making the team again.

 

Ford is relegated to fighting for a depth role and it will be all up to him as to whether he can improve enough to battle the

others and make the team.

 

Nothing is written in stone for any of these guys.  Camp/Preseason play will decide each of their fates.

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Ford is gone

Moss is staying

Epenesa stays if they keep 10 linemen.  If they only go with 9 it will come down to him vs Lawson.

[maddenboy]

16 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

High draft pedigree. Teams always seem willing to take flyers on these guys as reclamation projects. Especially if I see Bills OL coach being junk, and I believe my coach is better. Probably several teams that fit that, just depends on if any have a need and spare draft capital.

this is even better.

 

I forgot the other trade-value argument would come from an actual market for his services.   Because then we wouldnt need to convince anybody of anything.  Just play them off each other a bit, pull the trigger, and move on.

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by maddenboy

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Ford is gone

Moss is staying

Epenesa stays if they keep 10 linemen.  If they only go with 9 it will come down to him vs Lawson.

 

If they keep 10? Last year we went into the year with 11. There's no way they go from having 6 DE's last year down to 4 this year. We'll keep no less than 5.

 

I'd say even in the unlikely event we only kept 9, it's way more likely we'd keep 5 DE's and 4 DT's than the other way around when you look at the talent depth at both positions. You're talking keeping Brandin Bryant or Eli Ankou over a guy we took in the 2nd Round just over 2 years ago.

 

And the idea that Moss is safe and Epenesa is questionable is just as crazy to me. Moss was a healthy scratch often last season.

 

And this year they drafted James Cook and signed Duke Johnson with only Matt Breida exiting the team (2 in, 1 out). Wherein at the DE position, we brought in Von Miller and Shaq Lawson with Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison, and Efe Obada exiting the team (2 in, 3 out).

 

Singletary and Cook are locks. McDermott has only kept 3 true RB's on the team every year since he's been here with 1 Special Teams "RB". And he only dresses 2 true ball carriers.

 

So Moss will have to beat Duke Johnson in Camp to stay. Even if he does, he'll be in that Matt Breida/T.J. Yeldon role of "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" RB3 who isn't active on Game Days.

Edited June 26, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[RocCityRoller]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:37 AM, Richard Noggin said:

 

I think we DO know what caused Moss to fall out of favor: he wasn't a good fit as the Bills rushing attack moved away from zone blocking schemes down the stretch last season.

 

Throughout his tenure, McDermott has wanted the Bills to be a primarily zone-based rushing offense (more specifically outside zone), evidenced by his early hires (Dennison et al) and by his most recent hires (and interviews), but not previously matched by the personnel dept (too many subpar athletes on the OL to run it effectively). I commend them for adapting last year to the pin-and-pull and more gap-based approach that the line could actually execute at a high level.

 

Aside from Kromer, the Bills interviewed OL coach candidates who were all proponents of zone blocking (and again, wide zone specifically). Moss fits into this organizational desire to run that kind of offense. I think, with two years remaining on his rookie deal, and a potentially better fit, he gets more time. 

Good points for Moss. I still get the feeling Moss gets a lot of looks in pre-season as a show case. Buffalo has done it in the past with this leadership group.

1) evaluate his health and how well he runs behind this OL and blocking scheme, he may be improved and have more benefit to the Bills

2) he shows out and another team offers a decent pick for him. Duke Johnson becomes the reserve 'break in case of emergency' RB like Yeldon or Breida in seasons past.

 

Still a bit bummed Antonio Williams left. I liked his running style and thought he was a tough North-South style runner. I could see Williams having a solid season for the Giants spelling Barkley or filling in if Saquon Barkley gets injured. Daboll and Schoen jumped on him early and the G-men don't have great depth behind Barkley if I recall correctly. Breida and Williams will probably be fighting for RB2.

Edited June 26, 2022 by RocCityRoller

[PJBrown7]

I’m curious to see what Kromer can do with Ford. 

[newcam2012]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:26 PM, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Honestly, it's completely beside the point. You don't cut a 2nd Round Pick after 2 seasons unless the guy is just plain not getting the playbook or has serious character issues. You have to give them at least 3 years.

 

Look at Cody Ford. As bad as he's looked, he got 3 years and he may very well get 4. You don't wash your hands of premium investments on inexpensive rookie deals without giving them every chance to succeed and justify your investment.

 

Epenesa hasn't impressed. But he hasn't been so awful that you can completely close the book on the idea that he could still take steps forward this early in his career.

 

Beyond that, just from a roster standpoint, we only have 5 Edge Rushers between Von Miller, Greg Rousseau, AJ Epenesa, Boogie Basham, and Shaq Lawson (unless you have high hopes for career PS Player Mike Love or UDFA's Kingsley Jonathan and Daniel Joseph).

 

Last season, we kept 6 on the active roster. If they had no faith in Epenesa's potential for growth or entertained the idea they'd move on him from that quickly, they'd have Drafted another DE or added another in Free Agency.

I totally agree. The Bills have very little to lose with keeping AJ for another year. I didn't advocate for the Bills franchise to axe him this year. I get the optimism and hope that he develops. Thus far, he appears to be overmatched. Hope and optimism is about all you can hang your hat on. 

[ganesh]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:57 PM, Buffalo Timmy said:

When it comes to Moss I had completely forgotten what he brings, I am wondering if they can do a three headed monster this year or maybe rotate Singletary and Moss by the week to keep them fresh. I don't think either is built to be a 17 week workhorse, but then again I only think there are 3 or 4 guys like that in entire league 

I think this is what Brian Daboll tried to artificially create into the system and did not work.  Then he gave all the carries to Moss, only for him to get injured at the end of the season and then giving it back to Singletary in the last season. 

 

The Bills should go with the hot hand RBI ad RB2 in the game.

[Nelius]

The thing with Moss is that he has the easiest path to sticking by way of injury, or by being able to provide something different. Doesn't he pass protect well? He's also still the best power option. Ford and Epenesa have too many people in front of them and won't easily benefit from a single injury. I think they could all remain Bills for other reasons raised in this thread, but just chiming in to say that Moss is not a guaranteed departure considering he seems to be one of the current players that everybody's dumping on. Do you really need Gilliam if Moss steps up for example?

[Jay_Fixit]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:58 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Ford is gone

Moss is staying

Epenesa stays if they keep 10 linemen.  If they only go with 9 it will come down to him vs Lawson.

Moss sucks. He’s gone.

[Udubalum07]

I think they hold onto all three. Cody Ford will be cheap guard depth and Moss, I hope, can become a sorry yardage back, and offer some pass pro, not anymore than that. 

 

I watched Expenses a lot in college. I'm hoping I see not of what I thought he could be this year. Something like 6 sacks would be big.

[Son of a K-Gun]

Moss should only need to beat out Duke Johnson and the only way that does not happen is if the team has really soured on him and just want to cut ties...can't see that happening.  Many forget how good Moss looked through his rookie season...below are some of highlights.  One thing you will notice is the yards he gains after contact.  Didn't see much of that last season but a significant difference between 2020 and 2021 is the ability to get Moss the ball with space catching balls out of the backfield along with handing the ball off with a couple of steps before contact to get going.  The line was horrid at run blocking for the majority of last season and by the time the Bills implemented pin-pull and gap running schemes Moss was planted on the sidelines.

 

Then there were these runs to start the 2021 season after Moss was benched week 1...thought he was going to be on to something but it never developed.  If this Moss shows up in August there is sure to be a role on the 2022 Bills for him.   I just don't see giving up on a third year guy for Duke Johnson.  Pretty sure Duke is so old he actually played with Dorsey at Miami 😉

 

[T master]

I don't know that McD is one to cut bait with a player quickly seeing as he has given Ford every chance to make good on drafting him & given that they have brought in Kromer this will be a last ditch effort for him & i think Kromer could be the deciding factor on if he stays with the team or not .

 

I personally have never liked the choice to draft Moss not that he isn't a decent player but for what he was drafted to be he just doesn't have enough A** for it i would heave thought if they were going to get a physical back that they would have got a guy that was more in the 230 lb range .

 

If you factor in the draft pick this year in Cook i think he could be gone Epenesa i think he will stick due to the fact he has shown flashes & is usually around the QB putting pressure on him so i think that Von could help him hone his craft a bit to be a bit better player .

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, T master said:

I don't know that McD is one to cut bait with a player quickly seeing as he has given Ford every chance to make good on drafting him & given that they have brought in Kromer this will be a last ditch effort for him & i think Kromer could be the deciding factor on if he stays with the team or not .

 

I personally have never liked the choice to draft Moss not that he isn't a decent player but for what he was drafted to be he just doesn't have enough A** for it i would heave thought if they were going to get a physical back that they would have got a guy that was more in the 230 lb range .

 

If you factor in the draft pick this year in Cook i think he could be gone Epenesa i think he will stick due to the fact he has shown flashes & is usually around the QB putting pressure on him so i think that Von could help him hone his craft a bit to be a bit better player .

 

My only thing on Moss and DS as well for that matter - Moss had a 1.5 yards before contact and DS had a 2.3.  Some of that could be... apprehensiveness or not hitting holes hard.  But also, neither of those are good numbers at all.  Which directs me back to offensive line struggles. Hopefully saffold can help there, as well as kromer - but i think a lot of the offenses success and failure will fall back to that unit.  

[T master]

14 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

My only thing on Moss and DS as well for that matter - Moss had a 1.5 yards before contact and DS had a 2.3.  Some of that could be... apprehensiveness or not hitting holes hard.  But also, neither of those are good numbers at all.  Which directs me back to offensive line struggles. Hopefully saffold can help there, as well as kromer - but i think a lot of the offenses success and failure will fall back to that unit.  

 

No but last year DS had over 800 yds & a 4.6 npc average & he didn't get going until late so if they would have figured out how to use him more early on he could have been a 1K back possibly Moss on the other hand not so much I think Kromer will have a good effect on the run game this season .

 

The Bills are a passing offense so i don't see them having a huge jump like a Titans offend would in their running game but it would be great to have it be another weapon especially against some teams in the play offs ...

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

Moss should only need to beat out Duke Johnson and the only way that does not happen is if the team has really soured on him and just want to cut ties...can't see that happening.

 

I agree (bolded).  Moss will have a slight advantage going into camp over Johnson.  Duke Johnson is a decent RB so I don't see Zach as a lock. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Ford agree could be gone, depends how many lineman they keep and likely come down to him, Mantz, and VanRoten.  IMO they will keep two of the three.  Ford has been given multiple chances and so far hasn't worked out.  The one thing Ford has going for him is a relatively cheap contract, though don't know how that compares with the other two as believe Ford is due about $2.5 mil this season.

 

Epenesa and Moss likely are safe this year.  They've never really been penciled in as the starter as there was someone else on the roster who was perceived to be better whereas Ford was given the chance to start and failed at 2 different positions.  No shame in being beating out by a 1st rounder or well seasoned vets.

 

Epenesa and Moss also has had a rough road to the NFL in that no rookie mini camp or pre-season games their first year.  Thought even in year 2 there were still some restrictions.    Anyone drafted two years ago has had a tougher time, some have worked out, some have taken longer.  Also seems like Epenesa still hasn't figured out what the correct weight is he should be playing at to be strong enough, but not give up speed.  Could argue they have 1.5 season of NFL experience at this point.

 

Moss also has advantage as on paper gives the Bills RB room something that none of the others in that room possess, size!  For that reason he likely will stick.  Duke Johnson would have to clearly bet him out for him to be cut.  Epenesa on the other hand doesn't really give them anything different than their other DE's have.  So for him while I think this season he's safe, he will need to take a big step forward to make it to season 4 with the team.

[blacklabel]

Epenesa is gonna get plenty of chances so hopefully he makes the best of it. 

 

They like Moss and Ford both quite a bit. Beane talked about Moss at the end of the year press conference and said that Moss had surgery on his left ankle before last season and was struggling with it for most of the season. Maybe with a full off season to rest it will benefit him. He started off alright last year, had like four TDs in four games and a couple of nice goal line runs, one where he ran over a Dolphins defender was pretty good. If I had to guess, their ideal RB group would be Singletary, Cook, and Moss. 

 

Ford almost got Josh killed by Washington last season. That was rough. However, towards the end of the season he played quite a bit better than he had earlier in the year. Don't know if that's because the competition wasn't so great or he just had a good day but this is definitely his make or break year. Maybe Kromer finds a way to get something out of him. Pretty sure the guard spots will be Bates and Saffold with Ford as the primary backup. 

 

Honestly, the only one that I think that's really on the bubble is Ford.