Preparing for Tre White to never be the same post-injury

[Beerball]

12 hours ago, Einstein said:

This post may draw some knee-jerk reactions of anger, but please know that it wasn't written to make anyone upset. Unfortunately, the topic is naturally upsetting - We all love Tre White and want him to return to his typical dominant play. To that end, I've done some research on ACL injuries in NFL players. The common refrain from NFL fans is that ACL injuries are no longer the career-ender they once were, and I wanted to see if that was true. Unfortunately, research on players returning post ACL surgery is not optimistic, even in the modern era.

 

One study, Return to Play and Decreased Performance After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Defensive Players published in the The American Journal of Sports Medicine (2017), shows that:

 

• After the season of surgery, athletes in the ACLR group who returned to play decreased to 57% games started and 2.38 ± 1.24 solo tackles per game, while their matched controls suffered no significant decreases. (link)

And the result of the study indicated rather succinctly:

 

• Players who successfully returned were above-average NFL players before their injury but comparatively average after their return.

 

Another study, this one published in 2022, titled Return to Play and Performance After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Players shows similar results. Published in the Orthopaedic Journal of Sports Medicine, the results stated:

 

• Of the eligible players, only 28.5% (n = 59/207) remained in the league 3 years postinjury. Within the first 3 years postinjury, players played in fewer games (8.7 vs 13.7; P < .0001), started in fewer games (3.0 vs 8.3; P < .0001), had lower AVs (1.5 vs 4.3; P < .0001), and had decreased snap counts (259.0 vs 619.0; P < .0001) compared with preinjury. (link)

 

The conclusion of the study is no better:

 

• The study findings indicated that NFL players are severely affected by ACL injury, with only 28.5% still active in the league 3 years after the injury. Running backs, defensive linemen, and linebackers performed the worst after injury. v

 

Lastly, a 2019 study that examined ACL tears in Wide Receivers (I used this study because the WR position requires similar impact on the ACL). This study is titled 

Decreased Performance and Return to Play Following Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Wide Receivers. Published in The Arthroscopy Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation issue, the study found that:

 

• When we compared the tear group with the matched control cohort, players with ACL tears ended their careers on an average of 1.9 seasons earlier (2.2 vs 4.1 seasons, P < .001) and also played less than half the number of games (25.5 vs 56.6 games, P = .001), respectively. Those that RTP also saw decreased performance statistics in targets (353.6 vs 125.2 P < .001), receptions (208.0 vs 74.4, P = .001), receiving yards (2691.0 vs 987.9, P = .001), and touchdowns (17.4 vs 6.2, P = .002). (link)
• One potential good tidibt: "no significant differences were present between preinjury and postinjury in-game in all in-game statistics for the wide receiver"

 

Overall Conclusion? Concern.

 

There is a legitimate chance that Tre never returns to the level of play he showed in 2021 and prior, and there is a potential that his career will be shorter than we once thought.

 

 

Study from 2006-2012 and you quote it here? I had a knee reconstruction including ACL in 1975, why don't you go back that far to make the numbers say what you want them to?

[eball]

13 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

I've also  pounded this drum for a while because

 

…I’m a troll.

[Spiderweb]

13 hours ago, Einstein said:

This post may draw some knee-jerk reactions of anger, but please know that it wasn't written to make anyone upset. Unfortunately, the topic is naturally upsetting - We all love Tre White and want him to return to his typical dominant play. To that end, I've done some research on ACL injuries in NFL players. The common refrain from NFL fans is that ACL injuries are no longer the career-ender they once were, and I wanted to see if that was true. Unfortunately, research on players returning post ACL surgery is not optimistic, even in the modern era.

 

One study, Return to Play and Decreased Performance After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Defensive Players published in the The American Journal of Sports Medicine (2017), shows that:

 

• After the season of surgery, athletes in the ACLR group who returned to play decreased to 57% games started and 2.38 ± 1.24 solo tackles per game, while their matched controls suffered no significant decreases. (link)

And the result of the study indicated rather succinctly:

 

• Players who successfully returned were above-average NFL players before their injury but comparatively average after their return.

 

Another study, this one published in 2022, titled Return to Play and Performance After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Players shows similar results. Published in the Orthopaedic Journal of Sports Medicine, the results stated:

 

• Of the eligible players, only 28.5% (n = 59/207) remained in the league 3 years postinjury. Within the first 3 years postinjury, players played in fewer games (8.7 vs 13.7; P < .0001), started in fewer games (3.0 vs 8.3; P < .0001), had lower AVs (1.5 vs 4.3; P < .0001), and had decreased snap counts (259.0 vs 619.0; P < .0001) compared with preinjury. (link)

 

The conclusion of the study is no better:

 

• The study findings indicated that NFL players are severely affected by ACL injury, with only 28.5% still active in the league 3 years after the injury. Running backs, defensive linemen, and linebackers performed the worst after injury. v

 

Lastly, a 2019 study that examined ACL tears in Wide Receivers (I used this study because the WR position requires similar impact on the ACL). This study is titled 

Decreased Performance and Return to Play Following Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Wide Receivers. Published in The Arthroscopy Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation issue, the study found that:

 

• When we compared the tear group with the matched control cohort, players with ACL tears ended their careers on an average of 1.9 seasons earlier (2.2 vs 4.1 seasons, P < .001) and also played less than half the number of games (25.5 vs 56.6 games, P = .001), respectively. Those that RTP also saw decreased performance statistics in targets (353.6 vs 125.2 P < .001), receptions (208.0 vs 74.4, P = .001), receiving yards (2691.0 vs 987.9, P = .001), and touchdowns (17.4 vs 6.2, P = .002). (link)
• One potential good tidibt: "no significant differences were present between preinjury and postinjury in-game in all in-game statistics for the wide receiver"

 

Overall Conclusion? Concern.

 

There is a legitimate chance that Tre never returns to the level of play he showed in 2021 and prior, and there is a potential that his career will be shorter than we once thought.

 

 

I have no reason to doubt any of this, but I remain grateful that Thurman Thomas was an outlier in an earlier time when surgical techniques were not of today's standards. I think he had a pretty good, lengthy career as a RB (HOF).

[4merper4mer]

12 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I understand not reading a post that you're not interested in. 

 

I do not understand not reading the post, but then still commenting on it.

 

The studies are from 2022, 2019 and 2017. All recent. Nothing old. All relevant today.

The studies may have been from those years but that is completely irrelevant if the injuries were from longer back.  The 2017 study may have included injuries from 1978 but certainly did not include injuries from after 2017.

[Saxum]

5 minutes ago, Spiderweb said:

I have no reason to doubt any of this, but I remain grateful that Thurman Thomas was an outlier in an earlier time when surgical techniques were not of today's standards. I think he had a pretty good, lengthy career as a RB (HOF).

 

Thurman was a unicorn.  He never got surgery on it just using a knee brace his entire career.  Posted this earlier in thread.

 

Buffalo Bills HOF RB Thurman Thomas played entire career with partially torn ACL

Quote

When a fan asked how long Thomas played with the torn ACL, Thomas responded by saying he played the rest of his career with the injury. He'd later add that his ACL was about 85 percent torn.

 

[JellyBeane]

Obviously the ACL injury has grounded the Tre White Goalie Academy---Aaron Dell has suffered with the lack of proper coaching

[jletha]

14 hours ago, Einstein said:

The study findings indicated that NFL players are severely affected by ACL injury, with only 28.5% still active in the league 3 years after the injury. Running backs, defensive linemen, and linebackers performed the worst after injury. v

 

Maybe its in the study but what were the odds most of these guys were out of the league in 3 years anyway? To me youd have to compare All-Pro level CBs to get a good study. You cant loop all NFLers into it.

[T master]

14 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Pretty sobering.

 

my only response would be to hope that these stats reflect more of the “average” NFL player. A lot of the NFL “elite” tore their ACL’s and went onto have productive careers. Von Miller and Darrell Revis both come to mind. 

 

Guys like those you mentioned are different they have that it factor & i feel Tre has that to being elite not only in his play but in how he takes care of & listens to what his body tells him and his mentality .

 

I think he may struggle a bit this year & could very well not be the same as he was last year before the injury but i think he will get there the more he plays the mental aspect has to be very tough once he realizes his knee is fine he should be good .

 

My daughter had both knees done in high school (which i know is different) but when she came back was very tentative until a coach told her play like she use to & that her knee is fine & even stronger than before after that given her trust in this coach she started playing harder & came back to be her self .

 

I think that could be the same with Tre he will have to mentally realize his knee will do what he needs it to & when he realizes that he'll be fine but that could take some time .

[uticaclub]

It's not just the ACL, word there is meniscus damage and he wont be ready to return until october/november, almost a full calendar year.

 

Not to mention this is the last year with Hyde & Poyer over top. 
 

Championship windows close fast & we pissed away 2020 & 2021

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by uticaclub

[dje85]

6 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

It's not just the ACL, word there is meniscus damage and he wont be ready to return until october/november, almost a full calendar year.

 

Not to mention this is the last year with Hyde & Poyer over top. 
 

Championship windows close fast & we pissed away 2020 & 2021

 

 

If only we had an elite qb and offense so we didn't have to rely only on our defense to win every game we play.. Oh wait..

[North Buffalo]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:35 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

I'm not disputing the facts of these studies. I would just add that the overall career length for all NFL players is less than 3 years. So you are taking a player that tears his ACL, then not even adjusting for how long they have already been in the league and then saying only 28% are still playing after 3 years.  White is only 27. If he tore his ACL at age 31 it might be a whole different story. In fact he might not be in the league at age 34 even without an ACL tear.  

And not to be too harsh. But I kind of don't care about three years from now.  I want to win now. So just be smart and not bring him back too early.  Him playing in Dec/Jan/Feb is far more important than Sept.

 

Agree with above poster as well, he never had elite speed.  As long as he has adequate speed he should be fine.  Long term he could be your replacement for Hyde in 2024.  

Speed with an ACL is not the big issue, it confidence in quick twitch recovery to the ball ie cutting ability... it takes time, strengthening, flexibility and burst... Strength comes back quickest, flexibility and burst and confidence along with that take time... each little pain jab often associated with these type of injuries affect confidence even though its likely nothing and each athlete is different... plus ligaments are low blood flow tissues and blood carries cells that carry away (actually eat) damaged tissues and others are embryonic "repair" cells.  Working out stimulates this whole process if done correctly and speeds the healing process but it still takes time.  We will see... a great unknown.

Edited May 27, 2022 by North Buffalo

[Solomon Grundy]

Was really hoping that Kyle Fuller would have been an option, but he signed with Ravens 

[blacklabel]

Schmeh. I dunno, I guess it's kind of weird to me that fans spend time going over this stuff. I won't say they obsess over it because that'll just bring a defensive "it's not obsessed!" or whatever. 

 

Seems like guys come back from tough injuries better than ever these days. I'm certain they've drawn up a rehab plan that makes use of the most advanced and modern techniques used today. 

 

Might he struggle some right off his return? Sure. But we got some folks on here talking about moving him to free safety lol. 

 

The kid is an elite athlete getting the absolute best treatment in sports medicine, and on top of that he's a highly determined and confident person. He's gonna be driven to get back to the level he feels he can perform at. I think he'll be alright. 

[Nextmanup]

For me, this falls under the heading "let's see how it plays out."
 

 

[HamptonBillsfan]

15 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

How do you know Elam won't be as good as White as a rookie?

 

DB is the last of my concerns on this team. The coaches seem to play a system that both gets everything possible out of these players and makes it easy for them to step in with little drop off when need be.

OK, expecting quality corner play from a rookie usually comes from fans who don't realize there's a learning curve in the NFL. Tell me about getting everything out of depth dbs when they got lit up by KC with everything on the line. Love your optimism though.

[machine gun kelly]

19 hours ago, The Jerk said:

Hes gonna blow em away.

 

Everyday is Tre day, ya dig?

Thanks for you’re neverending fun quotes.

 

Tre will be fine.  An ACL is not the same as the repairs are light years ahead of even 5 years ago and even better from 10 years ago.

 

AP came back in 6 months and had banner years.  He played until late 30’s.  Besides not every ACL is the same.  He’s on pace per McD and that guy will 10 years from now be a HOF coach.  Not now as too short, but he’ll hook his wagon for at least the 12-15 years to Allen.  You have a great GM, and a great QB, and you become a winner.  McBeane will be a winning tandem for a decade.  These guys will be the next Tomlinson and company crew.  I’ve always respected the Steelers culture, and believe the Pegulas know how to stay out of the way and even though

politicians hate it, (NYC Democrats) have secured our franchise here for the next 30 years.

 

What more can you ask for in a team.  Let’s not forget this team has the state of the art training facility and staff as

they value health and why we don’t have a lot of soft tissue injuries like many teams.  We are so very fortunate.  Lastly, Tre has been here per Sal and Vic almost all off season  with the staff as he knows his best rehab is with our guys.

 

He’ll be fine.  He may have an adjustment in September, but by October he’ll be back to form.  He injured last November.  By October, that will be 11 months.

 

Guys stop with the overthinking and over worrying.  Stop looking for everything that will go wrong to be right and have faith.  Wrex and Maroone are not our coaches.  Neither is Skeletor, or Kay Stephenson.

[Big Turk]

52 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

OK, expecting quality corner play from a rookie usually comes from fans who don't realize there's a learning curve in the NFL. Tell me about getting everything out of depth dbs when they got lit up by KC with everything on the line. Love your optimism though.

 

Please...save it for the breeze...your takes are old and smell funky like cottage cheese.

 

We see quality play from rookie DBs every year...stop acting like it's something that never happens.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Big Turk

[PonyBoy]

19 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I read enough, in my opinion.  How do we know how injuries from 2022 are going to turn out? Useless data. They are much better at the surgery and PT than just 5 years ago in 2017. 

 

It’s a legit concern that he might not be ready early, but it took an Eyore to start a thread implying he might be out of the league or never be “himself”. He will be back, it’s just a matter of when. 

 

.

I used to know a guy named Eyore spelled Ihor. He was a donkey too..😀

[1ManRaid]

We've had this exact thread before.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Cooper Kupp tore his ACL in November a couple years ago and didn’t miss a game the following season. No contact injury. Very similar injury and time table to White.

 

This is why each individual injury is different. Don’t look at stats because it’s pointless. 
 

But here’s a feel good video for those worried.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede