Bills OTAs

[Rico]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Bills gave Beasley a decent contract. Crowder came here to get a decent contract next year.

 

One guy I think is going to surprise if given an opportunity is McKenzie. I think him and Allen have a thing.

No doubt if you have chemistry with Josh, you are ahead of the game AND you have a spot on this team AND you will play. Night and day from the Packers situation (ie. Rodgers-Kumerow). Josh is going to get what he wants, and rightly so.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Rico

[Rocky Landing]

29 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

First:

 

The main reason Crowder's production is down is because he has averaged missing 4 games per season the past 4 years.    

 

Last season he was never right.........he missed 5 games with 2 separate injuries.........THEN had to exit the season finale against Buffalo injured.

 

After two down seasons and 9 games missed in that time.........Crowder was available for cheap for a reason........his ypa tumbling to 8.8 in 2021 is a red flag because he used to be a good ypa guy...........but whether he's diminished by all the injuries now or not, he's simply not been available enough.

 

Beasley was hurt all season too and it hurt his averages..........but he PLAYED and produced..........he was 18th in the NFL in receptions.

 

Second:

 

The idea that receivers are at a big disadvantage in terms of being able to produce if their QB isn't a superstar like Josh Allen(who was only the 24th most accurate passer in the NFL at 63%, fwiw) is not statistically supported.

 

DJ Moore put up 93 catches and almost 1200 yards with Sam and Cam, throwing him the ball, basically.

 

I really don't need to expand on that list of huge producers on badly QB'd teams.......there are plenty.

 

Crowder was one of them in 2019.........he had an absurd 27 targets in the 2 games against the Bills that season.

 

Crowder got 6 targets per game last season.........Beasley had 7.    They both caught about 70% of those throws and had woeful ypa's in the 8's..........but availability is the most important ability. 

Well, I guess you can remove context from numbers, and then numbers from context. Beasley’s production dropped over 30% last season from the previous with more targets. 
 

As to your second point, league statistics have literally nothing to do with the point you’re refuting. Zay Jones, John Brown, Cole Beasley, Stephon Diggs are all vet WRs who have had career-high seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. Pointing out that that is a statistical outlier doesn’t refute my point. One could argue that it strengthens it. 

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, NewEra said:

People don’t loathe you because of your opinions.  People loathe you because of the way you react to others opinions. 
 

Take Scott for example.  I like Scott.  I agree with many things he says.  I disagree with many things that he says.  More than anything, I feel bad for Scott that he usually has a pessimistic outlook on almost everything that he puts to paper on this site.  I hope, for his sake, that he doesn’t take this mantra into his everyday way of thinking.  I respect Scott a lot because he is rarely (if ever) makes personal attacks on other posters.  He harps on certain people he has debates with.  He never stops reiterating the same points over and over, even though everyone already knows he feels a certain way.  He’s annoying.  But in a cute, he’s just looking for attention kind of way.  You literally make personal attacks on posters that aren’t even involved in the conversation you’re having. 

 

From my vantage point, Scott is pessimist bills fan that is bored and enjoys the banter.   I feel that you enjoy getting under peoples skin, irritating and demeaning them.  You’re not much alike as people.   You say I’m dead wrong, I hope that I am.  
 

I’ve had my share of criticism over my 20 years here.  When I was younger and boozing 5 days a week, I’d react emotionally and I’d get personal.  As time has passed I feel that I’ve learned to take the high road in most debates that get personal more often than not.   A couple glasses of wine may contribute to me getting too personal from time to time, but overall, I feel that I’ve toned down a lot over the years.  
 

Happily married 5 years, together for 9.  No kids.  Never argue.  This discussion had me thinking what your disagreements with your family would be like.   I asked because I can’t recall you ever mentioning your wife here.  I’m sure you probably have, I must’ve missed it or forgotten.  I was under the impression that you had a handful of kids. 
 

good for you that you treat your family different than members of the board.  I realize that you get a lot of negative vitriol coming your way and responding in like would be a common reaction, but knowing that you’re an intelligent, very successful in life, husband, parent, possibly grandparent, it’s just confusing to me that you would carry yourself the way that you do here.  

 

in closing, I realize that there are several kool aid drinkers here, as there are for every team and in life in general.  We can predict what several posters are going to write before even before reading their posts.   From my experience here, you’re the guy that enjoys provoking, dispelling and antagonizing the kool aid drinkers more than doing anything else.  
 

I have respect for you, I’m just disappointed that you couldn’t be more like some of the other more respected members here in the way that they receive hate and opposing views.  It would better the community if you did,  but it’s probably too late for that.  

 

 

My takeaway from that is you had a drinking problem that you blamed for out of control behavior........and you don't have any kids but you want to make a condescending remark about how I treat posters on here (all who have initiated any negativity that followed) by using my family as a reference.

 

You're not a young man, you should know you don't go there. 

 

This is why we keep it to football on the main board.

 

If you want to speak to me about personal things.........that's what PM's are for.

 

And btw, what you don't see on TSW is that I often bypass responding to negativity and just respond to unsolicited personal attacks on the board with PM's.........and with rare exception those people shut right the f*ck up or back pedal like a mofo on PM.........which tells you all you need to know about what their intention was in the public forum.    

 

I'm not paid to do this........so you can expect me to be gracious to assh*les in one hand and take a dump in the other and see which one fills up first.   

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

17 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Well, I guess you can remove context from numbers, and then numbers from context. Beasley’s production dropped over 30% last season from the previous with more targets. 
 

As to your second point, league statistics have literally nothing to do with the point you’re refuting. Zay Jones, John Brown, Cole Beasley, Stephon Diggs are all vet WRs who have had career-high seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. Pointing out that that is a statistical outlier doesn’t refute my point. One could argue that it strengthens it. 

In their 1st year Diggs, Beasley, and Brown posted career best in at least 1 category of receptions, yards, touchdowns.

 

If the trend continues expect Crowder to top at least one of these stats. 847 yards, 78 catches, or 7 TDs. 
 

I think we can all admit we’d be very happy with that outcome.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Dr. Who]

5 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Noted that Davis is not high on your list.  Many teammates, front office. and coaches have been singing his praises this offseason. 

 

That's what this truly boils down to for many...is Davis who we think can be a solid/consistent #2 opposite Diggs.  Those in your camp think we needed to upgrade, while others have seen enough to have faith he will deliver for us.

Davis looks great when he looks great. I am not sold he can do it consistently, but he might. I hope he does, obviously. I'd still like to have a talented player at the position for depth and in case Davis falters.

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Well, I guess you can remove context from numbers, and then numbers from context. Beasley’s production dropped over 30% last season from the previous with more targets. 
 

As to your second point, league statistics have literally nothing to do with the point you’re refuting. Zay Jones, John Brown, Cole Beasley, Stephon Diggs are all vet WRs who have had career-high seasons with Allen throwing them the ball. Pointing out that that is a statistical outlier doesn’t refute my point. One could argue that it strengthens it. 

 

 

Regardless of your 30% drop number........there is no argument to be made that Beasley wasn't more productive than Crowder last season........and 3 of the last 4 seasons since Crowder's injury problems began to derail his promising career.

 

I like Crowder's talent........early in his career he was better than Beasley IMO.........but he's only been "that" guy once in the last 4 seasons.

 

The Bills are hoping he bounces back after two successive down seasons and the contract fairly reflects the risk/significant chance that he's seen better days.

 

OJ Howard is the same situation.....he went from 1,000+ combined receiving yards in '18 and '19 down to nothing the past two seasons (with Tom Brady).

 

The problem is that these guys are stepping into a lineup that has lost a SIGNIFICANT amount of production in the pass game in Beasley and Sanders.

[Rocky Landing]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Regardless of your 30% drop number........there is no argument to be made that Beasley wasn't more productive than Crowder last season........and 3 of the last 4 seasons since Crowder's injury problems began to derail his promising career.

 

I like Crowder's talent........early in his career he was better than Beasley IMO.........but he's only been "that" guy once in the last 4 seasons.

 

The Bills are hoping he bounces back after two successive down seasons and the contract fairly reflects the risk/significant chance that he's seen better days.

 

OJ Howard is the same situation.....he went from 1,000+ combined receiving yards in '18 and '19 down to nothing the past two seasons (with Tom Brady).

 

The problem is that these guys are stepping into a lineup that has lost a SIGNIFICANT amount of production in the pass game in Beasley and Sanders.

Did I argue that Beasley wasn’t more productive than Crowder last season? No, I did not. 
 

(That qualifies as a straw man argument, btw)

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Rocky Landing

[Putin]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I looked at the Crowder deal as him taking less here because he saw what Beasley did. Crowder was probably the 4th best slot WR on the market behind Kirk, JuJu, and Landry. Landry is the guy I think if the Bills waited until after the draft for a WR they probably go get Landry. I’m sure his price dropped a lot from the start of free agency.

 

OG was a position I liked in the draft. But neither Zion Johnson or Kenyon Green fell to our pick.  Skyy Moore didnt fall to us in the 2nd.

 

 I’m perfectly fine with what the Bills did on offense. 
 

We have lost 3 significant WRs the last couple years, John Brown, Sanders, and Beasley. A lot of snaps and production. All of them are unsigned today. Diggs, Brown, and Beasley all had career years in Buffalo. All became better in Buffalo. On the OL, Feliciano and Williams became better players in Buffalo. Williams is also on the street. 
 

 

I’m surprise Williams is still on the street , is he asking too much ? 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Putin

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

100% accurate.  But it won't change his mind, until he sees it...even then who knows.  Crowder is more explosive with ball in his hands, can also play outside in a pinch.  Although, I think Shakir will be the top backup outside.  

 

I still don't get the opinions some have about this skill group, it's top 5 in the NFL.  A bunch of weird anxiety about losing Beas, who clearly lost a step or 2, and Manny Sanders who ran hot/cold during the season.   We were a better/more explosive offense when Davis and McKenzie were both on the field.  Not to mention Motor was improving, which I think was a playcalling issue all season long (balanced attack and type of run/blocking schemes).

 

Now, add in Crowder, Cook, Shakir, and Howard...I am lost on what these posters wanted? Who did they want to sign or draft?  It would have put Davis on the bench, maybe that's what this comes down to.

Excepting Howard, I might agree this group might be very productive if Josh has the time .

and yes the calls might be changing to allow the check downs to be the better options and keep the defense honest

Josh really grew last year as to seeing the whole field in motion !

[Doc]

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Regardless of your 30% drop number........there is no argument to be made that Beasley wasn't more productive than Crowder last season........and 3 of the last 4 seasons since Crowder's injury problems began to derail his promising career.

 

I like Crowder's talent........early in his career he was better than Beasley IMO.........but he's only been "that" guy once in the last 4 seasons.

 

The Bills are hoping he bounces back after two successive down seasons and the contract fairly reflects the risk/significant chance that he's seen better days.

 

OJ Howard is the same situation.....he went from 1,000+ combined receiving yards in '18 and '19 down to nothing the past two seasons (with Tom Brady).

 

The problem is that these guys are stepping into a lineup that has lost a SIGNIFICANT amount of production in the pass game in Beasley and Sanders.

 

Beasley had 693 yards and 1 TD last season.  Sanders had 626 and 4.  That's decent but hardly significant.  Davis and Crowder can provide, and probably surpass those totals, health-willing, which is the biggest question mark with Crowder.

 

As for Howard, even if he provides what he did last season, that's still about 100 more yards than the TE's not named Knox provided.

[eball]

2 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

100% accurate.  But it won't change his mind, until he sees it...even then who knows.  Crowder is more explosive with ball in his hands, can also play outside in a pinch.  Although, I think Shakir will be the top backup outside.  

 

I still don't get the opinions some have about this skill group, it's top 5 in the NFL.  A bunch of weird anxiety about losing Beas, who clearly lost a step or 2, and Manny Sanders who ran hot/cold during the season.   We were a better/more explosive offense when Davis and McKenzie were both on the field.  Not to mention Motor was improving, which I think was a playcalling issue all season long (balanced attack and type of run/blocking schemes).

 

Now, add in Crowder, Cook, Shakir, and Howard...I am lost on what these posters wanted? Who did they want to sign or draft?  It would have put Davis on the bench, maybe that's what this comes down to.

They are just too entrenched in opinions that they seem believe represent facts.

Scott doesn’t really offer anything particularly insightful, in my opinion; his mantra is that McD and Beane only know defense, despite the fact they identified and developed Josh Allen and they’ve put together one of the most dynamic offenses in the NFL. He’ll cite Kelvin Benjamin as his evidence.  The glass is always half empty with him. I find it amusing but I don’t dislike him.  He owns it. 
 

Badol is obviously a smart, thoughtful fan who analyzes the game.  I have learned things about football reading his posts, and he’s even occasionally humorous. Unfortunately, he also has much too high an opinion of himself for my taste. If he thinks something is or should be a certain way, he rarely (in my experience) is willing to even consider any contradictory thought.  He says he is trying to promote discussion but all he does is demean and belittle those who present any sort of challenge to what he has proffered. Maybe he really is the great, funny, footloose and carefree guy he keeps telling us he is, but “the lady doth protest too much” comes to mind. 

 

But whatever, we’re all here because we share a passion for the Bills.  It should be a fun year for us all, even if we disagree over our opinions regarding what they should or shouldn’t have done with personnel. 
 

It certainly would be nice if everyone treated each other with some measure of respect. I know it’s difficult in a nameless and faceless online forum but it’s a worthwhile goal. 
 

Go Bills!

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

My takeaway from that is you had a drinking problem that you blamed for out of control behavior........and you don't have any kids but you want to make a condescending remark about how I treat posters on here (all who have initiated any negativity that followed) by using my family as a reference.

 

You're not a young man, you should know you don't go there. 

 

This is why we keep it to football on the main board.

 

If you want to speak to me about personal things.........that's what PM's are for.

 

And btw, what you don't see on TSW is that I often bypass responding to negativity and just respond to unsolicited personal attacks on the board with PM's.........and with rare exception those people shut right the f*ck up or back pedal like a mofo on PM.........which tells you all you need to know about what their intention was in the public forum.    

 

I'm not paid to do this........so you can expect me to be gracious to assh*les in one hand and take a dump in the other and see which one fills up first.   

 

 

 

His key words is used to be. Has grown up to become a better person (we all do).  I'm happy for you NewEra keep it up! Always the high road is way to go.  You're a wonderful poster NewEra.

 

Anyway's not going to use family to anyone. But ya noone should go to pm and do personal attacks on you Badol. Would never do that to anyone. That's pretty low. Always treat others with respect.  Disagree with people is ok, ignore people is ok but doing something personal is not. 

 

Last reply you said to me Badol. I'm excited for season noone going to change that for me. I'm always going to root for Bills every way. Might criticism them or praise them when they do good or bad.  Always loyal to them. 

 

Badol understand what key points iv'e been there it hurts by others said in person. But always ended up taking high road.  

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Rocky Landing said:

Did I argue that Beasley wasn’t more productive than Crowder last season? No, I did not. 
 

(That qualifies as a straw man argument, btw)

 

 

I think it is a over use problem.   Its not like Crowder is a big physical WR to begin with and he has been the "main" weapon on his team with the jets and the commanders.

 

He wont have that problem with us........this team is loaded with WR talent and Josh is gonna have to spread that ball around a bit.

4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Exactly my thoughts…. They are basically expecting Davis to add an additional 700 yards and 45-50 more receptions to take the place of Sanders…. A lot to ask of a guy who hasn’t shown he can consistently be relied upon or stay healthy consistently… but maybe this is the year he stays on the field and puts it all together.

At some point you gotta see if he can do it.  On a lesser team they would already be putting Gabe in that situation.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Exactly my thoughts…. They are basically expecting Davis to add an additional 700 yards and 45-50 more receptions to take the place of Sanders…. A lot to ask of a guy who hasn’t shown he can consistently be relied upon or stay healthy consistently… but maybe this is the year he stays on the field and puts it all together.

Did I miss something? I don’t remember injuries keeping him off the field much. Josh Allen said Davis wanted to play more last year but Allen kept telling him to be patient.

 

Knox is also expected to get more targets this year. Knox and Davis should be around 100 targets.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

😉

 

[Rico]

Mount Rushmore of Bills #80 WR’s:

Jerry Butler

James Lofton

Eric Moulds…

 

Jamison Crowder!

 

(Never liked Bill Brooks, what a downgrade from Lofton).

 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Did I miss something? I don’t remember injuries keeping him off the field much. Josh Allen said Davis wanted to play more last year but Allen kept telling him to be patient.

 

Knox is also expected to get more targets this year. Knox and Davis should be around 100 targets.

He missed one game last year for covid but played 16 games in 2020 and 16 games in 2021. Hasn’t shown he can stay healthy consistently? Not sure where that comes from. 

[Doc]

30 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

He missed one game last year for covid but played 16 games in 2020 and 16 games in 2021. Hasn’t shown he can stay healthy consistently? Not sure where that comes from. 

Yeah. Or even expecting 700 more yards and 45-50 more receptions. He had 35 catches for 549 yards last year. That would be 80 to 85 catches for 1250 yards.  No one is expecting that. 

[Logic]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

😉

 

I think the competition at slot WR is shaping up to be the most interesting of camp.

 

I don’t expect Shakir to overtake the vets this season, but McKenzie vs Crowder vs Austin should be a good battle. Each guy offers something a little bit different.

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Exactly my thoughts…. They are basically expecting Davis to add an additional 700 yards and 45-50 more receptions to take the place of Sanders…. A lot to ask of a guy who hasn’t shown he can consistently be relied upon or stay healthy consistently… but maybe this is the year he stays on the field and puts it all together.

Davis isn't replacing Sanders production alone, who is saying that? Those who believe in Gabe think he's a solid/capable #2....he's never been given this opportunity before and he's deserved it.  But we also have Knox and Crowder/McKenzie in the slot, along with Shakir.  Not to mention, we didn't draft Cook in the 2nd for him to ride the pine.

 

Plenty of weaponry.  Davis is the least of my concerns heading into the season.  Eager to see how Dorsey plans to utilize, what I'd consider one of our most versatile skill position groups in quite a while.