Bills OTAs

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Im impressed you know Fahrenheit.  I certainly don’t know celsius. 

 

Multiply by 2 add 30 is the general rule.

[Royale with Cheese]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Multiply by 2 add 30 is the general rule.

So its 93f here in Atlanta.  93x2+30.  So that means it would be 216c.  Math and common sense has always been my strong suit.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Royale with Cheese

[YoloinOhio]

 Visor Josh Allen is a vibe and should be protected at all costs 

 

 

[Warcodered]

 

[YattaOkasan]

5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I think you should lower your expectations of Saffold. He is a 34 year old guard who struggles in pass protection, something the Bills offense is built off of,  and has struggled to stay healthy…. With Williams you get Tackle/Guard flexibility. If hes an upgrade it’s not a big upgrade. 
 

I think you underestimate Williams, who in 2020, was a very good RT. He def struggled last season but ended up as a serviceable starting Guard. I don’t know why he’s unsigned. Perhaps he’s waiting until after training camp…. Who’s to say Saffold wouldn’t be doing the same thing if the Bills didn’t sign him to that contract?
 

I’m not saying Bates can’t play RG, I’m saying he won’t have an all pro LT next to him any longer so we will find out how good he really is.

 

Brown was god awful at times last season and his back up in Quessenberry allowed more sacks than anyone at Tackle last season. Quite the upgrade.😅

 

You suggested it’s much improved, that’s a really big stretch to say at this point. 

You better tell the league that they are underestimating Williams.  I was here for 2020.  he lost his spot to a rookie the next year.  clearly there are limitations in his game (they are athletic, his RAS is bad).  im not aware of him ever having a good season at guard.  Ultimately i think Williams' lack of athleticism is why teams have soured on him as a Tackle and he has never shown to be a good guard.  Seems a pretty straight forward why he doesnt have a deal yet.

 

The injury concern is really your best argument in this saffold/williams discussion, which is why im still laughing at your terrible take earlier, but at this point the bills have shown they are able to manage injuries very well.  But saffold gets to play beside an "all pro" LT this coming season so really the comparison is to Bates.  Again saffold is a clear upgrade.  

 

At this point you need to hope someone signs williams for > 5 mil or ill just have fun tagging you with that.   

 

At RG Bates had a better ratio of snaps : penalty than Williams and did not have enough snaps to qualify for a ranking (he gave up 0 though).  Yeah that might not translate to the other side but at this point youre just projecting.  If it doesnt Van Roten is very similar G to Williams (Van Roten << Williams @ T).  

 

Quessenberry is fun.  I think sacks plus penalties is just as useful to evaluate OL play.  Brown had 8 penalties last year to Quessenberry's 2.  so Quessenberry has 13 penalties and sacks to browns 9 penalties and sacks.  Quessenberry also had like double the snaps and was a clearly better run blocker.  So yeah I think he played better last year, even though I think Browns anticipated growth makes him a better RT this year.  Also quessenberry has a great story.  dude played less than 500 snaps before last year, and he turned out to be an awesome run blocking tackle.  He has played multiple positions after winning his battle with cancer.  So just overall yeah i think his play this year can be expected to be better than Browns rookie season.

 

So where does that leave us.  you need Bates to play worse on the other side, Saffold to be injured, Brown not to take a step forward, Quessenberry to take a step back as a run blocker.  That would be same level of play as last years OL (we would run Dawkin, Bates, Morse, Van Roten, Quessenberry in this scenario).  So thats all variance on one side of the mean.  I could paint a picture where we become a top 5 line this year doing the opposite of what you did to get them back in the 16-20 range (I think they will be top 10).  I think an improvement from 16-20 to top 10 would be considered much better.  But you do you and keep telling GMs they are underestimating Williams as a tackle.

[ddaryl]

3 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

So based on your premise should Allen drop back and pass? Have designed roll outs? Because the risk is also real in thoae two situations. Maybe you should advocate for a short 3 step drop and quick passes. He should be safe that way. Come on. The Bills have a stud at QB. You should never limit his legs which limits the Bills wins. Of course don't be reckless. Utilizing Allens legs imho, isn't reckless. You restrict what he does and this team will likely never sniff a super bowl ring. Play to win! In 13 seconds...

 

I'm firmly in the "limit the designed runs" from Allen camp, unless the season is on the line.

Allen can scramble when he has to but the designed runs need to be limited.



 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

 

I'm firmly in the "limit the designed runs" from Allen camp, unless the season is on the line.

Allen can scramble when he has to but the designed runs need to be limited.



 

Isn't scambling dangerous? Aren't you concerned he can be injuried scrambling? Why wouldn't you advocate limit the scrambles? Can't Allen just run (aka RPO) when he has to? Maybe like five RPOs a game. 

 

Inside the opponents 10 yard line he should absolutely be limited running the ball? Pound it in with Motor, Moss, and Cook. Really?  Allen was by far the best Bills rusher inside the opponents 10 yard line. I suspect that won't change.  Hopeful the Bills will improve in that regards. However, to limit Allen's ability to score in the red zone via his legs is pretty crazy. I'm all for playing smart but playing scared, passive, and not going to your strengths doesn't sound like a winning recipe for me. Maybe I'm wrong...

[YattaOkasan]

53 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Saffold has sucked at pass protection and has shoulder problems. 
 

You said “much better” offensive line. They have basically replaced one starter with a guy who’s struggled in protecting the QB for an offense that predominantly passes the ball. 
 

Everything being equal, based on last years performance you can’t possibly convince me the offensive line is “much better” on paper. So we can agree to disagree buddy.👍🏻

One starter from the end of the year.  Considering who took the majority of snaps we got improvement at 3 places. Bates better than Ike, mongo, ford (you agree with me on this) Brown improves (I think you would agree odds are that he does), Saffold. That’s better at three positions which equates to much better.  Did they get anyone to surpass Morse or Dawkins?  Nah but they did turnover the bottom part of that line.
 

Go be miserable about something else like why Bates got less snaps than Cody ford. 

[unbillievable]

3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 Visor Josh Allen is a vibe and should be protected at all costs 

 

 

 

I see wobble. Passes too high. 86 Tavon Austin only got 1 foot in-bounds.

 

These are Josh Low-lights. Not impressed.

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Im impressed you know Fahrenheit.  I certainly don’t know celsius. 

Did he specify Fahrenheit?

He might literally be melting.

[The Wiz]

26 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

 

I see wobble. Passes too high. 86 Tavon Austin only got 1 foot in-bounds.

 

These are Josh Low-lights. Not impressed.

The Bills haven't even made it to training camp and I can see you're already in mid-season form. 

 

Nice work staying in shape. 😆

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

That's fair. I don't think we are that far apart. Agree on still using his legs. How much is always debatable. Lots of variables that are known and unknown come into play. 

 

Perhaps it's semantics. I don't like term "preserving" him. To me, it has a negative connotation. It seems passive rather then being assertive. Seems like it's playing scared. I know you and others will advocate it's playing smart. Perhaps, we are splitting hairs.

 

I have no issues with the Bills calling limited RPOs. I believe it keeps defenses honest and it's a great weapon for the Bills. Why limit their offense, skill set, and dynamic play calling? 

 

Lastly, as stated previously I don't think the Bills can abandom RPOs all season and then turn it on in the playoffs. That's wishful thinking at best. 

Word.  
 

Never take away his legs… we just

CAN’T use him the way we did vs Atlanta and the jets all season.  If we do, we’ll likely take years off of his career

Edited June 18, 2022 by NewEra

[BADOLBILZ]

On 6/14/2022 at 8:26 PM, Logic said:

Other than...

re-signing Isaiah McKenzie (who plays a useful role in the offense year after year)
re-signing Ryan Bates (starter)
signing Jamison Crowder (presumed new starting slot receiver)
signing OJ Howard (presumed TE2)
signing Roger Saffold (presumed new starting left guard)
signing Tavon Austin

signing Duke Johnson

drafting James Cook (high capital on a pass catching back for Josh)

drafting Khalil Shakir (long term slot receiver and WR depth)

...You nailed it.

Totally sacrificed offensive investment.

 

 

The Bills guaranteed $90M to just 4 defensive free agents plus their first round pick this offseason.

 

This to benefit what had been the league's #1 ranked defense in 2021.

 

They guaranteed just $25M combined to 12 offensive-side free agents/draft picks.......9 of which you listed.  

 

A relative pittance. 

 

This after they cut 15 and 16 game starters Williams and Beasley and also their second most productive boundary receiver(Sanders). 

 

They lost as much or more production on offense as they had on defense.      

 

So yes.........as @ScottLaw said......."they sacriced investment on offense" to the benefit of the defense.

 

Obviously.

 

Taking offense to that with your snarky list of tired vets and injury fliers was laughably illogical..........but that's why your screen name is an antiaptronym.........the opposite of what you are and what you do.

 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Word.  
 

Never take away his legs…,we nust

CAN’T use him the way we did vs Atlanta and the jets all season.  If we do, we’ll

likely take years off of his career

I don't think anyone here is advocating the Bills use Allen like the Bills did in those two games. Those games were an anomaly. The debate is really about how to utilize Allen's legs to win games and not subjecting  Allen to hits and or injury. 

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

You better tell the league that they are underestimating Williams.  I was here for 2020.  he lost his spot to a rookie the next year.  clearly there are limitations in his game (they are athletic, his RAS is bad).  im not aware of him ever having a good season at guard.  Ultimately i think Williams' lack of athleticism is why teams have soured on him as a Tackle and he has never shown to be a good guard.  Seems a pretty straight forward why he doesnt have a deal yet.

 

The injury concern is really your best argument in this saffold/williams discussion, which is why im still laughing at your terrible take earlier, but at this point the bills have shown they are able to manage injuries very well.  But saffold gets to play beside an "all pro" LT this coming season so really the comparison is to Bates.  Again saffold is a clear upgrade.  

 

At this point you need to hope someone signs williams for > 5 mil or ill just have fun tagging you with that.   

 

At RG Bates had a better ratio of snaps : penalty than Williams and did not have enough snaps to qualify for a ranking (he gave up 0 though).  Yeah that might not translate to the other side but at this point youre just projecting.  If it doesnt Van Roten is very similar G to Williams (Van Roten << Williams @ T).  

 

Quessenberry is fun.  I think sacks plus penalties is just as useful to evaluate OL play.  Brown had 8 penalties last year to Quessenberry's 2.  so Quessenberry has 13 penalties and sacks to browns 9 penalties and sacks.  Quessenberry also had like double the snaps and was a clearly better run blocker.  So yeah I think he played better last year, even though I think Browns anticipated growth makes him a better RT this year.  Also quessenberry has a great story.  dude played less than 500 snaps before last year, and he turned out to be an awesome run blocking tackle.  He has played multiple positions after winning his battle with cancer.  So just overall yeah i think his play this year can be expected to be better than Browns rookie season.

 

So where does that leave us.  you need Bates to play worse on the other side, Saffold to be injured, Brown not to take a step forward, Quessenberry to take a step back as a run blocker.  That would be same level of play as last years OL (we would run Dawkin, Bates, Morse, Van Roten, Quessenberry in this scenario).  So thats all variance on one side of the mean.  I could paint a picture where we become a top 5 line this year doing the opposite of what you did to get them back in the 16-20 range (I think they will be top 10).  I think an improvement from 16-20 to top 10 would be considered much better.  But you do you and keep telling GMs they are underestimating Williams as a tackle.

Great post.  
 

The only place where we disagree is them being a top 10 unit. I think they can be a top 10 unit…..but I think they’re closer to 12-18. We saw how devastating an OL injury can be and how our OL play suffered and crippled out offense.  Our run blocking was putrid and left us one dimensional.  I like the additions and feel much more comfortable with our depth.  If we face injuries, quessenberry and Van rotens play could decide our fate.  If their play in relief is = to Spencer Browns play @ RT….. we’re doomed if they have to play long term.  
 

injuries are inevitable along the OL.  The severity of our OL injuries will play a role in our success/failure based on our backups play

 

I think they can be a top 10 unit thanks to Kromer moreso than our talent.  

Edited June 18, 2022 by NewEra

[BADOLBILZ]

46 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I don't think anyone here is advocating the Bills use Allen like the Bills did in those two games. Those games were an anomaly. The debate is really about how to utilize Allen's legs to win games and not subjecting  Allen to hits and or injury. 

 

 

An anomaly?   He had 42 rushing attempts in the 4 games from Tampa thru Atlanta.     And that's counting the Carolina game where they tried to have him just throw from the pocket the week after injuring his foot being tackled on a running play in Tampa.    He rushed only 3 times that day but behind his ineffective OL he struggled with 55% completion and was sacked 4 times.    After that, they went right back to using him like a RB with 27 carries over next two weeks.     He also had the 11 rush game early in the season in KC and 2 other games with 9.    Running Allen heavily was far from an anomaly.    He ran a young-Cam-Newton-esque 122 times on the year........with a per game rate like his rookie season when he was basically just running around trying to figure it out.     

 

By contrast..........Patrick Mahomes killed the Bills defense with his feet in the playoff game.........but he only ran the ball 62 times in the regular season.   

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Logic]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills guaranteed $90M to just 4 defensive free agents plus their first round pick this offseason.

 

This to benefit what had been the league's #1 ranked defense in 2021.

 

They guaranteed just $25M combined to 12 offensive-side free agents/draft picks.......9 of which you listed.  

 

A relative pittance. 

 

This after they cut 15 and 16 game starters Williams and Beasley and also their second most productive boundary receiver(Sanders). 

 

They lost as much or more production on offense as they had on defense.      

 

So yes.........as @ScottLaw said......."they sacriced investment on offense" to the benefit of the defense.

 

Obviously.

 

Taking offense to that with your snarky list of tired vets and injury fliers was laughably illogical..........but that's why your screen name is an antiaptronym.........the opposite of what you are and what you do.

 

Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 

But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

An anomaly?   He had 42 rushing attempts in the 4 games from Tampa thru Atlanta.     And that's counting the Carolina game where they tried to have him just throw from the pocket the week after injuring his foot being tackled on a running play in Tampa.    He rushed only 3 times that day but behind his ineffective OL he struggled with 55% completion and was sacked 4 times.    After that, they went right back to using him like a RB with 27 carries over next two weeks.     He also had the 11 rush game early in the season in KC and 2 other games with 9.    Running Allen heavily was far from an anomaly.    He ran a young-Cam-Newton-esque 122 times on the year........with a per game rate like his rookie season when he was basically just running around trying to figure it out.     

 

By contrast..........Patrick Mahomes killed the Bills defense with his feet in the playoff game.........but he only ran the ball 62 times in the regular season.   

 

 

Let me ask you this. How effective has Allen been as a runner since he became a Bill? Yards, big plays, and touchdowns. Surely, any Bills fan knows the answer. Please stop with your feeble argument. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by newcam2012

[Logic]

38 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yes, but you understood my point… you ran off a list of meh offensive signings/players resigned that are pale in comparison to the investment made defensively… but you knew that. 

I illustrated my disagreement with the notion that the team didn’t invest in the offense. I did not claim that the levels of investment in offense and defense were commensurate in terms of dollars and cents.

The way you dismiss the offensive signings/re-signings make it sound as if they didn’t address that side of the ball at all. I disagree. I think moves like re-signing the #1 WR (in an offseason that saw many teams unwilling to do so), spending a 2nd round pick on a running back, and upgrading at guard and TE2 represented at least some degree of reasonable investment on offense. Note, again, that I’m not claiming they spent the same on offense on defense, but simply that I disagree with this notion that they didn’t lift a finger to help the offense.

 

By the way, it’s not as if investing heavily on defense is something that only silly, old school Sean McDermott wants to do. We just saw the Chiefs part ways with Tyreek Hill to free up cap space to spread around the rest of the team, then use 7 of their 10 draft picks on defense. We just saw the Chargers spend big on Khalil Mack and JC Jackson. We saw the Raiders shell out big bucks for Chandler Jones.

It’s not just the Bills. Defense is important.
 

And before you say “but the Bills already fielded the number 1 defense last year”, well, they were also 2nd in the league offensively in pts/game two years running. They were also the best offense in the playoffs last season at 41.5 pts/game. You’ll point to the stretch of offensive ineffectiveness in the third quarter of the Chiefs game, but I’ll point again to the defense giving up 42 points. Round and round we go. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Logic

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Simply saying that your statement of “much better” is a gigantic stretch means I’m miserable? 😅

 

“Much better” is not out of the realm of possibility but it will take several “what ifs” to come to fruition for that to take place… I’ll take better considering the cluster ***** it was last season… personally I don’t think they did enough to address the offensive line and offense in general.

This is a very fair post. I agree with your take. 

[Magox]

Seems as if there seems to be some amnesia as to why the Bills didn't advance into the AFC Championship game.

 

Aside from the coaching gaffe

 

- The Bills couldn't get after the QB

- The Bills couldn't cover their receivers

 

That was addressed this offseason in a major way.

 

With that said, the offensive line on paper is slightly better and so is the backfield, tight ends with the WR's essentially being a push.

 

Get one more veteran depth CB and boundary WR and the team is set.