Doc Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 49 minutes ago, Tiberius said: He's so good people have to make up crap that he won through fraud. That's good! Morning Doc, enjoying the great western New York weather today? I'm in CT and yes I'm enjoying it. The weekend was hot but not unbearable. How is it in WNY today? As for Biden, sorry but the made-up-on-the-fly election rules made it the most insecure and bogus election in modern times. And he's proving what a fraud he is as a President. He's (unsurprisingly) underwater on everything and his once-staunched defenders are starting to turn on him. You're entrenched so you'll go down with his sinking ship. 1 1
Tiberius Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, Doc said: I'm in CT and yes I'm enjoying it. The weekend was hot but not unbearable. How is it in WNY today? As for Biden, sorry but the made-up-on-the-fly election rules made it the most insecure and bogus election in modern times. And he's proving what a fraud he is as a President. He's (unsurprisingly) underwater on everything and his once-staunched defenders are starting to turn on him. You're entrenched so you'll go down with his sinking ship. Super nice day here! Were you a Hartford Whalers fan? lol
Doc Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Super nice day here! Were you a Hartford Whalers fan? lol I'm from Rochester so nope. And they left right around the time I started living here so never got to go to a game. Edited May 23, 2022 by Doc 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 1 hour ago, DRsGhost said: It's 2022. You must fall in line with your elected leaders and media or else.... If the shoe were on the other foot in 2020 with Biden leading late in night, states announce pause in counting, and we wake up the next morning to Trump in the lead we'd have howling and like you've never seen from the other side. And rightly so. And that really is the point of all of this questioning. If you can't have elections where everyone on BOTH sides have confidence in it being free of major shenanigans then you begin to crack the foundations of the republic. You simply cannot have another election like 2020 where some 15 million unsolicited ballots are sent out with mostly unmonitored drop boxes everywhere. In what universe does the above recipe, that never happened before in US history, and had bipartisan agreement as a huge invitation for fraud, equal the most secure election in US history? It's really the "theres nothing to see here" mantra that puts it into over the top shady territory. But thats just me....and tens of millions of other Americans. ChiG is new to the board, or at least seems to be, and I think the best option is always to start by establishing certain benchmarks so we gain and understanding of where we fall on these issues. There is so much evidence historically speaking that unconditional trust in such declarations as “most secure election ever!” makes very little sense in the big picture. I understand politically why it makes sense to position it as such if one is a Biden supporter, but that doesn’t move the needle for me. So, I ask the question. I don’t alway get answers, like my question on whether or not Obama/Biden, the DOJ etc should have revealed the Clinton ties to the the Steele Dossier and Russian collusion when first made aware of it—long before the conclusion of the Mueller Report. It seems that information would have put some context in place for ordinary Americans during an extremely contentious time as we argued about treason, Putin in the White House and the like. I think for the greater good and national unity, Obama, Biden and Mueller later on should have revealed that information when briefed on it.
BillsFanNC Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: So, I ask the question. I don’t alway get answers, like my question on whether or not Obama/Biden, the DOJ etc should have revealed the Clinton ties to the the Steele Dossier and Russian collusion when first made aware of it—long before the conclusion of the Mueller Report. It seems that information would have put some context in place for ordinary Americans during an extremely contentious time as we argued about treason, Putin in the White House and the like. I think for the greater good and national unity, Obama, Biden and Mueller later on should have revealed that information when briefed on it. I think you and I have discussed this previously. In short the answer to why wouldn't Obama and/or Biden come clean is simple. Because they were in on it and weren't going to implicate themselves in any wrongdoing. A January 5th, 2017 oval office meeting with these attendees is the key: Obama, Biden, Brennan, Clapper, Comey, Rice and Yates. In fact Susan Rice states in an email to herself the following: “President Obama said he wants to be sure that, as we engage with the incoming team, we are mindful to ascertain if there is any reason that we cannot share information fully as it relates to Russia,” National Security Advisor Susan Rice wrote in an unusual email to herself about the meeting that was also attended by Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, FBI Director James Comey, and Vice President Joe Biden. ...... It was this meeting that Rice memorialized in a bizarre inauguration-day email to herself that claimed Obama told the gathered to do everything “by the book.” But Rice also noted in her email that the key point of discussion in that meeting was whether and how to withhold national security information, likely including details of the investigation into Trump himself, from the incoming Trump national security team. All of it is laid out here. https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/08/obama-biden-oval-office-meeting-on-january-5-was-key-to-entire-anti-trump-operation/ 1 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 44 minutes ago, DRsGhost said: I think you and I have discussed this previously. In short the answer to why wouldn't Obama and/or Biden come clean is simple. Because they were in on it and weren't going to implicate themselves in any wrongdoing. A January 5th, 2017 oval office meeting with these attendees is the key: Obama, Biden, Brennan, Clapper, Comey, Rice and Yates. In fact Susan Rice states in an email to herself the following: “President Obama said he wants to be sure that, as we engage with the incoming team, we are mindful to ascertain if there is any reason that we cannot share information fully as it relates to Russia,” National Security Advisor Susan Rice wrote in an unusual email to herself about the meeting that was also attended by Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, FBI Director James Comey, and Vice President Joe Biden. ...... It was this meeting that Rice memorialized in a bizarre inauguration-day email to herself that claimed Obama told the gathered to do everything “by the book.” But Rice also noted in her email that the key point of discussion in that meeting was whether and how to withhold national security information, likely including details of the investigation into Trump himself, from the incoming Trump national security team. All of it is laid out here. https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/08/obama-biden-oval-office-meeting-on-january-5-was-key-to-entire-anti-trump-operation/ Right—and we agree. I believe for example, that another poster here doesn’t care one way or the other on this issue, his response boiled down to whether it was criminal or not to withhold the info. I’m just trying to gauge ChiG’s feelings on this sort of thing, as he seeks understanding from folks in the Stop the Steal camp. 1
ChiGoose Posted May 23, 2022 Author Posted May 23, 2022 4 hours ago, DRsGhost said: It's 2022. You must fall in line with your elected leaders and media or else.... If the shoe were on the other foot in 2020 with Biden leading late in night, states announce pause in counting, and we wake up the next morning to Trump in the lead we'd have howling and like you've never seen from the other side. And rightly so. And that really is the point of all of this questioning. If you can't have elections where everyone on BOTH sides have confidence in it being free of major shenanigans then you begin to crack the foundations of the republic. You simply cannot have another election like 2020 where some 15 million unsolicited ballots are sent out with mostly unmonitored drop boxes everywhere. In what universe does the above recipe, that never happened before in US history, and had bipartisan agreement as a huge invitation for fraud, equal the most secure election in US history? It's really the "theres nothing to see here" mantra that puts it into over the top shady territory. But thats just me....and tens of millions of other Americans. This is long and I'm quoting @DRsGhost here but I also am going to try to respond to other things that have been raised that I haven't had a chance to respond to. 1. It's 2022. You must fall in line with your elected leaders and media or else.... I was a Republican in 2016. I've only considered myself a Democrat for a couple of years, after spending a bit of time in the wilderness as an independent. I don't take orders from politicians, nor do I blindly follow them. They are people, they are fallible and just because I vote for someone doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I don't idolize them. I also try to read and listen to a variety of credible media sources to ensure I am getting multiple perspectives. Joe Biden was the first Democrat I've ever voted for President. 2. If the shoe were on the other foot in 2020 with Biden leading late in night, states announce pause in counting, and we wake up the next morning to Trump in the lead we'd have howling and like you've never seen from the other side. And rightly so. This is missing a crucial piece of information: we KNEW the vote totals would shift. There were a myriad of articles about it BEFORE the election. With the pandemic, millions of Americans were going to vote by mail, far more than in most elections. We also expected that Democrats would be more likely to vote by mail than Republicans because of GOP messaging about mail in votes. Some states had laws that said those votes could be counted as they came in. For those states, you would expect to see a heavier Democratic lean when the numbers first came out, and then a shift towards the Republican candidates as the election day totals were counted. Many states were prohibited from counting the mail in vote until election day or after. For those states, you would expect to see a stronger Republican showing when the polls closed and then a shift towards the Democrats as the piles of mail in ballots were counted. Here are some sources on this from before the election: September 1st: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/politics/2020-election-count-red-mirage-blue-shift/index.html October 29th: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-pennsylvanias-vote-count-could-change-after-election-night/ October 31st: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-results-timing/ And here's an explainer after the election: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-we-saw-red-and-blue-mirages-on-election-night/ It wasn't a surprise. It wasn't nefarious. It was standard election infrastructure working as designed and anticipated. 3. You simply cannot have another election like 2020 where some 15 million unsolicited ballots are sent out with mostly unmonitored drop boxes everywhere. In what universe does the above recipe, that never happened before in US history, and had bipartisan agreement as a huge invitation for fraud, equal the most secure election in US history? The idea of proactively mailing out ballots for mail-in voting actually has happened before in US history. In fact, it happens in every election in several states. Those states all send out ballots to all voters who can then send them in by mail or deposit them in drop boxes / sites. If your assertion were true, we would expect to see rampant voter fraud in these states every election. But we don't. Also, these claims just assume that every ballot sent in is automatically counted. But states have verification procedures to ensure the ballot was submitted by a valid citizen. You can even sign up as an election judge to observe / help with that process. I did it for a recount in a local election years ago. I watched as they counted the ballots and people could challenge ballots if they suspected an issue. To be able to perpetrate the fraud being alleged here, I would need to be able to steal the ballots from someone's mailbox or home, know enough about them to beat the verification procedure (whether it is their SSN, signature, whatever), complete the ballot and drop it off. I would then need to do that or have a network of people do that millions of times. And everyone would need to be so onboard that nobody ever leaks about it, comes clean, or provides hard evidence of our group of thousands(?) of people stealing ballots and personal information in order to change the election. A conspiracy that size is essentially impossible to keep secret. In fact, a much smaller effort at the same thing was uncovered in North Carolina several years back. Something at the scale being alleged here would have been discovered quickly and people would have been prosecuted. 4. But thats just me....and tens of millions of other Americans. This is worrying to me. Tens of millions of people believe a lie because a complicated conspiracy of shadowy powerful people controlling everything is more palatable than the fact that people were just tired of Trump's crap, tired of the pandemic, and found Biden to be a return to a sense of normalcy. There's a whole cottage industry of Never Trump Republicans out there with enough support to launch financially viable products. Also, Trump underperformed down-ballot Republicans. Meaning that millions of voters voted for Biden and then for the other Republican candidates. If there was a grand conspiracy that could control the elections, down-ballot Republicans would not have done as well as they did. 5. Biden enthusiasm / rallies For some reason, the lack of crowds at Biden's rallies is seen as a sign that nobody wanted to vote for him. In actuality, Biden's campaign was prefaced on a return to normalcy and ending the pandemic. People who took the pandemic seriously would be more likely to support Biden and LESS likely to want to go to giant in-person events (especially since this was pre-vaccines). 6. Changes in election laws People allege that states, election bodies and other officials trying to make voting safer during a pandemic was nefarious. Thankfully, we have a public record of those changes being vetted due to significant litigation on the changes. Time and time again, courts (including Trump appointed judges) found the changes to be fine. I would agree to the sentiment that *permanent* changes to election laws need to go through state legislatures. But temporary emergency changes to keep voters safe made by those with authority (as confirmed by the courts) also seems reasonable. People are looking for evidence of nefarious actions by a shadowy cabal when the truth is staring them in the face: Trump was incredibly unpopular, the pandemic was upending everyone's lives and Biden provided a promise of an opportunity for people to try to return to a less chaotic time. 1 1
ChiGoose Posted May 23, 2022 Author Posted May 23, 2022 18 minutes ago, Doc said: The first Dem you voted for was Biden? Oh boy. Joe Biden was the first Democrat I've ever voted for President.
BillStime Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 4 hours ago, Doc said: I'm in CT and yes I'm enjoying it. The weekend was hot but not unbearable. How is it in WNY today? As for Biden, sorry but the made-up-on-the-fly election rules made it the most insecure and bogus election in modern times. And he's proving what a fraud he is as a President. He's (unsurprisingly) underwater on everything and his once-staunched defenders are starting to turn on him. You're entrenched so you'll go down with his sinking ship. Can you tell us about the political make up of those state legislatures that made -up-on-the-fly election rules in said swing states?
Doc Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: Joe Biden was the first Democrat I've ever voted for President. Yeah, I got that the first time.
BillsFanNC Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 3 hours ago, ChiGoose said: This is missing a crucial piece of information: we KNEW the vote totals would shift. There were a myriad of articles about it BEFORE the election. With the pandemic, millions of Americans were going to vote by mail, far more than in most elections. We also expected that Democrats would be more likely to vote by mail than Republicans because of GOP messaging about mail in votes. Some states had laws that said those votes could be counted as they came in. For those states, you would expect to see a heavier Democratic lean when the numbers first came out, and then a shift towards the Republican candidates as the election day totals were counted. Many states were prohibited from counting the mail in vote until election day or after. For those states, you would expect to see a stronger Republican showing when the polls closed and then a shift towards the Democrats as the piles of mail in ballots were counted. Here are some sources on this from before the election: September 1st: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/politics/2020-election-count-red-mirage-blue-shift/index.html October 29th: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-pennsylvanias-vote-count-could-change-after-election-night/ October 31st: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-results-timing/ And here's an explainer after the election: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-we-saw-red-and-blue-mirages-on-election-night/ It wasn't a surprise. It wasn't nefarious. It was standard election infrastructure working as designed and anticipated. It was a lot of things. Standard wasn't one of them. I remember quite well the media telling us all of this this non stop leading up to the election. That doesn't change the fact that it was an unprecedented election with in some cases unconstitutionally altered election rules and unprecedented opportunities for fraud. 3 hours ago, ChiGoose said: The idea of proactively mailing out ballots for mail-in voting actually has happened before in US history. In fact, it happens in every election in several states. Those states all send out ballots to all voters who can then send them in by mail or deposit them in drop boxes / sites. If your assertion were true, we would expect to see rampant voter fraud in these states every election. But we don't. There is fraud every election. 2020 was rampant. 3 hours ago, ChiGoose said: Also, these claims just assume that every ballot sent in is automatically counted. But states have verification procedures to ensure the ballot was submitted by a valid citizen. You can even sign up as an election judge to observe / help with that process. I did it for a recount in a local election years ago. I watched as they counted the ballots and people could challenge ballots if they suspected an issue. To be able to perpetrate the fraud being alleged here, I would need to be able to steal the ballots from someone's mailbox or home, know enough about them to beat the verification procedure (whether it is their SSN, signature, whatever), complete the ballot and drop it off. I would then need to do that or have a network of people do that millions of times. And everyone would need to be so onboard that nobody ever leaks about it, comes clean, or provides hard evidence of our group of thousands(?) of people stealing ballots and personal information in order to change the election. A conspiracy that size is essentially impossible to keep secret. In fact, a much smaller effort at the same thing was uncovered in North Carolina several years back. Something at the scale being alleged here would have been discovered quickly and people would have been prosecuted. That's precisely what they claim and show evidence for in 2000 mules. It's enough to to seriously raise eyebrows at minimum and have reasonable people asking for serious investigations in most cases. I strongly suggest you find an opportunity to watch the film and make your own conclusions. When you send out ballots to not just the active voters, but EVERYONE on the voter rolls or in some states applications were sent to all voters on the rolls then you invite more opportunity for fraud. Those who are dead, moved away, ineligible etc. This scenario ends up with a ***** ton more ballots and/or applications floating around than there otherwise would be. It's not hard to imagine finding these ballots and applications sitting around in bulk all over the place and that's exactly what happened. Again, covered in 2000 mules. This type of fraud happens in every election, but it was put on steroids in 2020 because of a pandemic so that "we can vote safely." More on that later. I want to make my position more clear. I'm not saying that you can prove that Trump won or that we should be doing audits forever to try to overturn and election or anything of that nature. That ship sailed the moment the opportunity was set in motion for this type fraud to occur. I'm saying that there is more than ample evidence of rampant voter fraud during the 2020 election and steps need to be taken to make sure this never happens again. It's laughable to say there is no widespread evidence of fraud. Moreover, it's insulting to almost everyone's intelligence to call an election run the way 2020 was the most secure election in US history. 3 hours ago, ChiGoose said: People allege that states, election bodies and other officials trying to make voting safer during a pandemic was nefarious. Thankfully, we have a public record of those changes being vetted due to significant litigation on the changes. Time and time again, courts (including Trump appointed judges) found the changes to be fine. I would agree to the sentiment that *permanent* changes to election laws need to go through state legislatures. But temporary emergency changes to keep voters safe made by those with authority (as confirmed by the courts) also seems reasonable. So you're ok with judges ignoring the constitution on a temporary emergency basis (depends on who defines the emergency, right?) if it makes it safer? What about the guy who shaped covid policy nationwide? Do you think he is more qualified than a judge to weigh in on whether or not in person voting is safe? I mean we deferred to him on everything else, so why not on how we vote? Here's what the esteemed Dr. Fauci had to say on the issue: Dr. Anthony Fauci, chief medical advisor for the Trump administration’s coronavirus task force, said this week that he sees “no reason” Americans should avoid voting in-person as long as social distancing guidelines are followed. “I think if carefully done, according to the guidelines, there’s no reason that I can see why that not be the case,” Fauci said of in-person voting during a National Geographic event that aired Thursday. “If you go and wear a mask, if you observe the physical distancing, and don’t have a crowded situation, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be able to do that.” https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-no-reason-americans-t-163906602.html 3 hours ago, ChiGoose said: People are looking for evidence of nefarious actions by a shadowy cabal when the truth is staring them in the face: Trump was incredibly unpopular, the pandemic was upending everyone's lives and Biden provided a promise of an opportunity for people to try to return to a less chaotic time. To whatever extent Trump was unpopular Biden had him beat in spades on the unpopularity scale. And for anyone who bought that Joe Biden offered any promise at all to return to a less chaotic time....lol....well welcome to May 2022, things are going just swimmingly don't you think?
BillStime Posted May 23, 2022 Posted May 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, DRsGhost said: It was a lot of things. Standard wasn't one of them. I remember quite well the media telling us all of this this non stop leading up to the election. That doesn't change the fact that it was an unprecedented election with in some cases unconstitutionally altered election rules and unprecedented opportunities for fraud. There is fraud every election. 2020 was rampant. That's precisely what they claim and show evidence for in 2000 mules. It's enough to to seriously raise eyebrows at minimum and have reasonable people asking for serious investigations in most cases. I strongly suggest you find an opportunity to watch the film and make your own conclusions. When you send out ballots to not just the active voters, but EVERYONE on the voter rolls or in some states applications were sent to all voters on the rolls then you invite more opportunity for fraud. Those who are dead, moved away, ineligible etc. This scenario ends up with a ***** ton more ballots and/or applications floating around than there otherwise would be. It's not hard to imagine finding these ballots and applications sitting around in bulk all over the place and that's exactly what happened. Again, covered in 2000 mules. This type of fraud happens in every election, but it was put on steroids in 2020 because of a pandemic so that "we can vote safely." More on that later. I want to make my position more clear. I'm not saying that you can prove that Trump won or that we should be doing audits forever to try to overturn and election or anything of that nature. That ship sailed the moment the opportunity was set in motion for this type fraud to occur. I'm saying that there is more than ample evidence of rampant voter fraud during the 2020 election and steps need to be taken to make sure this never happens again. It's laughable to say there is no widespread evidence of fraud. Moreover, it's insulting to almost everyone's intelligence to call an election run the way 2020 was the most secure election in US history. So you're ok with judges ignoring the constitution on a temporary emergency basis (depends on who defines the emergency, right?) if it makes it safer? What about the guy who shaped covid policy nationwide? Do you think he is more qualified than a judge to weigh in on whether or not in person voting is safe? I mean we deferred to him on everything else, so why not on how we vote? Here's what the esteemed Dr. Fauci had to say on the issue: Dr. Anthony Fauci, chief medical advisor for the Trump administration’s coronavirus task force, said this week that he sees “no reason” Americans should avoid voting in-person as long as social distancing guidelines are followed. “I think if carefully done, according to the guidelines, there’s no reason that I can see why that not be the case,” Fauci said of in-person voting during a National Geographic event that aired Thursday. “If you go and wear a mask, if you observe the physical distancing, and don’t have a crowded situation, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be able to do that.” https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-no-reason-americans-t-163906602.html To whatever extent Trump was unpopular Biden had him beat in spades on the unpopularity scale. And for anyone who bought that Joe Biden offered any promise at all to return to a less chaotic time....lol....well welcome to May 2022, things are going just swimmingly don't you think?
B-Man Posted May 24, 2022 Posted May 24, 2022 1 hour ago, 716er said: 2,000 Mules is a pretty terrible source. LOL.
716er Posted May 24, 2022 Posted May 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, B-Man said: LOL. Odd that a man pardoned by Trump would release the documentary. No conflict of interest there. LOL
BillsFanNC Posted May 24, 2022 Posted May 24, 2022 "Informed" by their masters and dutifully parroting their 2000 mules "debunking" points. Just like the good useful idiots that they are. Meanwhile, those of us living in reality consume media and primary source material for ourselves and then formulate opinions independently.
716er Posted May 24, 2022 Posted May 24, 2022 (edited) How does the cell phone data referenced in the film distinguish between someone who walked by a drop box on the sidewalk and someone who stopped and dropped a ballot/ballots off? Edited May 24, 2022 by 716er 1
ChiGoose Posted May 24, 2022 Author Posted May 24, 2022 (edited) I think it's always helpful to see what people say when there is actually a penalty for lying. As we saw in the election lawsuits, the moment that Trump's lawyers were sworn in at a courtroom, they generally refused to claim there was election fraud, even going so far as to explicitly state that they are not alleging fraud. Why? Because lying under oath is a crime and they could be fined or jailed for it. They will lie outside of court in order to gin up the masses and, crucially, get donations to line their pockets. But when they have to face a penalty for lying, they suddenly hesitate. They know they are lying. They are doing it for money and fame but the minute they personally could face consequences for lying, they shut their mouths. 2,000 Mules has been debunked. I will list some of the sources of the debunking, but I doubt it will make any difference for anyone who finds a grifter like D'Souza to be credible as they wouldn't read the articles or change their minds. But the thing I want to ask is, if D'Souza actually believes what he is saying is true, why has he not filed police reports for the individuals he identified in 2,000 Mules? If he has geolocation data, he can tell where they live, if he knows that, he can identify the mules. At the very least, if he cannot name the specific individual, he can give information that one of the people are a particular residence is a mule and the police can take it from there. He can tell the police, they can investigate, the mules will get arrested and this whole thing will be exposed to the public as truly real. Libs will cry. Trump will rejoice. D'Souza will be hailed as a hero. He doesn't do that because there would be a consequence to lying to police. He could get in trouble for filing a false report. If he went to the FBI, he would be facing the same problem Sussman is facing now. Instead, he would much rather have people pay him $20-30 to watch his video because it makes him money he can rub all over his MyPillow pajamas that you can buy with his promo code (so he can get a cut). Which is what this has always been about: money. Why else would someone claim they have definitive proof that an election was stolen but make people pay to see it? There are few people who have more disdain for Republican voters than Republican officials and pundits. People like D'Souza think that Republican voters are rubes that are ripe to hand over their money to a snake oil salesman. They will say everything and anything to get that money and support, unless it will cause them to face consequences personally. Some helpful reading on 2,000 Mules: WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/17/discussing-gaps-2000-mules-with-dinesh-dsouza/ Bulwark: https://www.thebulwark.com/dinesh-dsouzas-2000-mules-is-a-hilarious-mockumentary/ Edited May 25, 2022 by ChiGoose 1 1
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