Mass shooting in Buffalo (Those wishing to exchange on the political aspects of this situation should do so in the thread located in PPP) - edit by moderator

[billsfan1959]

34 minutes ago, TH3 said:

It’s expensive and doesn’t change crime and innocent people get killed. Texas was hours away from executing a woman two weeks ago who has no business being in jail let alone death row.

 

17 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

so only more expensive and not actually impactful as a deterrent?

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by billsfan1959

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

ultimately, I appreciate the civil tone… but… you argument amounted to:

 

conceding it is indeed more expensive, offering that it is in fact a punishment (well yea, but is it a better punishment?), and a distasteful at best or disingenuous at worst twisting of the point that it’s got finality that other options don’t. 
 

not great and honestly, I suggest we detour back to the case at hand and not the merits of the death penalty philosophically. honestly, both this and my prior comment are less about capital punishment and more about lackluster arguments

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

There have been between 14,000 and 22,000+ murders a year in this country since 1969. That is an average of over 17,000 per year, and a total of over 1 million people murdered in this country in that period. The only time people seem to really care is when they can use a murder (or murders) for their own ends.

 

The real impact of lethal violence on victims, their families, and communities, as well as any real honest discussion about it seem to get lost in the rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs.

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs" if it doesn't address a broader category of issues (murder in this country)

 

 

[Einstein]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This thread was not moved.  It was opened here.

 

My apologies then:

 

On the main Bills forum it has a moved icon next to it and I had to click it in order to get here.
 

So I assumed it was moved.

[BillsFan4]

Woke up hoping this was just a bad dream… 😢

[Dr. Who]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs".

 

 

There's no doubt it is a heinous crime and that the disturbed individual who commited it is reprehensible. I've not researched the fella's social media, but there are reports out there that in addition to white supremacy, he expressed even more anti-Semetic rage, that he hated libertarians and identified as "mild moderate authoritarian left, national socialist" with environmentalist proclivities. The "Whattaboutism" comes about because folks are going to ghoulishly use a horrific event to advance ideological political agendas. If one focuses on the specifics of an event, it ought to be about the unique individual who perpetrated it. Contributing factors should not include reactively branding half the country complicit in a monstrous action, which unfortunately is what often happens.

[716er]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs".

 

 

 

It could also easily be argued minimizing the tragedy so it's not about white nationalism also suits certain peoples' needs.

[BillsFan4]

😢

[Rc2catch]

I’m in Tennessee and not really from the area anymore. But my heart goes out to you guys in the area or affected by this. So sad for all the families. 

[billsfan1959]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This could be just me, but I find "Whattaboutism" antithetical to the "honest discussion" said to be desired . 

 

This appears to be a form of "Whattaboutism" (citing an overall murder statistic of 17,000 people per year in a response to reporting on a specific tragic event of violence). 

 

I think a specific event involving the deliberate planned murder of 10 people who were grocery-shopping, based on their skin color and the murderer's self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs, is horrific.  It seems natural and normal to care about this and discuss it, and somewhat puzzling to dismiss or minimize this discussion as a "rush to use tragedies in a way that best suits our needs".

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong. The facts of this case, as we know them, certainly indicate the offender set out to murder people based on "his self-expressed racist white supremicist beliefs." I have no problem with discussing it in that sense. I fully understand that there are certain crimes that will inherently draw more attention than others, for a variety of reasons. Again, that is not my issue. My issue is when the motive becomes greater than the central tragedy and used by some people in ways it shouldn't be.

 

The truth is, that there are literally thousands of people, every year, that are intentionally murdered for all kinds of motives. The overwhelming majority of them never garner more than a headline on page 5 of the local paper because the circumstances or motives surrounding their murders don't provide a platform for broader uses. 

 

It is not "Whattaboutism." Nor is it antithetical to "honest discussion." Mass murder victims comprise an incredibly small percentage of homicides. As stated, I fully understand the reasons they become national stories. However, to me, they always seem get hijacked for one reason or another, while the lack of interest in the overwhelming percentage of homicides in this country that actually represent the more typical homicides never allow us to engage in real honest discussion of the underlying issues.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by billsfan1959

[YoloinOhio]

This is so heartbreaking.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

1. It's expensive because of the entirely different manner in which capital cases are prosecuted and the fact that the government is paying the cost of, on average, of approx 14 years of the appeal process.

2. No sentences actually deter criime. Sentences are first and foremost about punishment for an offense.

3. There have always been Innocent people convicted and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Mistakes are inherent in any system run by human beings. By that logic, we shouldn't engage in any harsh sentences for crimes. 

 

 

Wrongly convicted people sometimes get released. The wrongly executed don't have that option.

 

I'm curious, what is an acceptable number of innocent people executed to you? 100? 30? 10? Are they the unavoidable collateral damage in the pursuit of blood lust?

[stuvian]

My heart goes out to the wonderful people of Buffalo. A city I have grown to love through its teams and its people. This city did nothing to deserve such horror.

 

Racist hatred and gun violence can destroy everything we love. We need to work for peace everyday.

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, 716er said:

 

It could also easily be argued minimizing the tragedy so it's not about white nationalism also suits certain peoples' needs.

 

Honestly. Nobody is trying to minimize the murder of ten people or the fact that the offender did it for vile and reprehensible reasons based on race and views of other human beings as inferior and worthless in some way. It should turn everyone's stomach and be condemned in every way possible. 

 

People can express an opinion about something without their motivations turned into this.

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by billsfan1959

[Nextmanup]

So we can all agree "this is horrible."

 

But what can we all agree to do about this?

 

This happens twice a week in this country!  And we never--as a society--do a THING about it!

 

We love this stuff!  It's America's new national pastime!  Screw baseball!  We love mass shootings.

 

I see big time politicians talking about this RIGHT NOW on CNN....

 

You know what will be done?  NOTHING!

 

Get ready to be sickened by the next one, too!

 

🤝

[Nextmanup]

As an aside: it's worth noting (especially for younger Bills fans) that this shooting took place about 3 blocks north from the old main entrance to the Rockpile, Buffalo War Memorial Stadium.

 

Extremely close to where the stadium used to be and where people like OJ played lot of football.

 

 

[Just Jack]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

My apologies then:

 

On the main Bills forum it has a moved icon next to it and I had to click it in order to get here.
 

So I assumed it was moved.

 

Someone opened a thread on the main forum, and it was merged with this one, that's why you see the moved icon over there.  

[billsfan1959]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Wrongly convicted people sometimes get released. The wrongly executed don't have that option.

 

I'm curious, what is an acceptable number of innocent people executed to you? 100? 30? 10? Are they the unavoidable collateral damage in the pursuit of blood lust?

 

I am actually not a proponent or an opponent of the death penalty. I would have no problem if this country did away with it tomorrow. My stance is that, as long as it is an allowable form of punishment under the law, I can support it being given as a form of punishment in an extremely small percentage of cases that meet certain criteria. 

 

Part of the criteria (not all) in those small percentage of cases is physical evidence that is conclusive. Believe it or not, there are cases where the evidence is conclusive.

 

Saying that there have always been innocent people convicted in criminal justice systems run by human beings is not the same as saying I am fine with it. I have no lust for blood and I never want to see an innocent person convicted, much less given the death penalty.

 

Like I said, if the people in this country wanted to do away with the death penalty to ensure an innocent person was never put to death, I would have no opposition to it.

 

 

[Beerball]

21 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

So we can all agree "this is horrible."

 

But what can we all agree to do about this?

 

This happens twice a week in this country!  And we never--as a society--do a THING about it!

 

We love this stuff!  It's America's new national pastime!  Screw baseball!  We love mass shootings.

 

I see big time politicians talking about this RIGHT NOW on CNN....

 

You know what will be done?  NOTHING!

 

Get ready to be sickened by the next one, too!

 

🤝

Coffers will be filled. Coffers on both sides of the aisle.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

There's no doubt it is a heinous crime and that the disturbed individual who commited it is reprehensible. I've not researched the fella's social media, but there are reports out there that in addition to white supremacy, he expressed even more anti-Semetic rage, that he hated libertarians and identified as "mild moderate authoritarian left, national socialist" with environmentalist proclivities. The "Whattaboutism" comes about because folks are going to ghoulishly use a horrific event to advance ideological political agendas. If one focuses on the specifics of an event, it ought to be about the unique individual who perpetrated it. Contributing factors should not include reactively branding half the country complicit in a monstrous action, which unfortunately is what often happens.

So in your mind, citing a person’s ‘environmentalism’ in a case where he murdered black people is just as relevant as the fact that he’s a white nationalist…all while lecturing folks on being ghoulish😂😂😂