Reported Bills UDFA signing - 11 signed, 3 Camp Invites *Updated* 09:32 (4 open spots)

[Buffalo Barbarian]

13 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Agreed, but right now he's still the 2nd best G on the roster after Saffold. I hope 1 of these rookie OL turns out to be the steal of the year.

 

Hes not better than Bates, not even close, id put Doyle and Quessenberry in guard over Ford.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Difficult to disagree with anything here. Maybe it's about what you're omitting, then?

 

Don't think I'm omitting anything

 

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

For starters: Bates. He's a fine young starting-caliber IOL piece with tons of flex and plenty of athleticism to fit the zone-heavy scheme he'll be in. 

 

I'm not an NFL GM.  But in his post-season presser, a man named "Beane" who is referred to our OL with Bates as "a starting place".    Not a finished product; not "good to go"; "A Starting Place."

1) Bates has started 4 games.  He left the first one when he was injured after 10 snaps.  We have yet to see how he'll hold up as a starter over a full season

What's the plan if he can't hold up?

2) Bates played well at LG.  Now we want him to play RG.  Some guys can move over seamlessly, some can't.

3) And again - the guy who is an NFL GM referred to the OL that ended the season as "a starting place".  So why is staying at "the starting place" good?

 

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Next: Saffold. We can sidestep his pro bowl status last season in favor of something like this: aging LG with history of high-end zone run blocking and declining average-ish pass blocking. Probably a solid one-year stop-gap on-the-field and a vital resource for installing Kromer's wide-zone scheme. 

 

1) We can't sidestep the fact that while he played in 15 games last year, he played less than 60% of the snaps in 4 of them.  That would imply that in 6 of 17 games, he was not "full go" - that's 35% of the games.  What's the plan to compensate for that?  Maybe our S&C staff will get him right.  Maybe they won't.

2) Saffold's pro bowl was for his prowess in run blocking.  Saffold is undoubtedly an upgrade over Williams for run blocking, but we're a passing team.

 

And again - this is not new writing for me, I've detailed all this before.

 

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Depth is underwhelming with respect to starting pipeline management, but we shouldn't ignore Ford's adequate replacement performances late in the season, or Quessenberry's value with RT/RG flex. Of course we'd prefer a 3rd starting-caliber OG. I don't know much at all about Mercz (or even if I'm spelling his name correctly). And Boettger would represent SOLID OG depth if he hadn't torn his achilles last year. 

 

I believe I heard somewhere that Quessenberry gave up a league leading number of sacks.  I don't think we should ignore that.

 

Mancz is a career journeyman.  He had a chance to start for Houston his 2nd season, and couldn't hang on to the job.  He can play at C and both G positions, just not well enough to have been able to hold down a starting position.  Basically, Feliciano lite.  He's a good fill-in, but probably not good enough to anchor a spot for 35% of the season.

 

I agree, Boettger would represent solid OG depth (and maybe contend as a starter) if he hadn't torn his Achilles.  If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.....

 

Again - when the Bills GM refers to our line as "a starting place", then returns the same line with one substitution for a guy who is arguably better at one aspect of his job, but worse at the aspect that is most important to the Bills (pass blocking) - and worse at availability.....it's not a situation that raises confidence in the "investors"

18 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Agreed, but right now he's still the 2nd best G on the roster after Saffold. I hope 1 of these rookie OL turns out to be the steal of the year.

 

"I'm a chicken wing!  I'm a ***** chicken wing!" says "no"

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Without searching for it did we cut anyone? Yesterday this thread said we were at 90 already. Was that inaccurate?

 

Yes the OP double counted the draft picks and therefore was off by 8.

 

The updated roster numbers already included the draft picks - then he added them to the updated roster - putting us at 83 rather than the 75 we were at.

 

Now with 10 UDFAs - we have 5 spots left.

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Don't think I'm omitting anything

 

 

I'm not an NFL GM.  But in his post-season presser, a man named "Beane" who is referred to our OL with Bates as "a starting place".    Not a finished product; not "good to go"; "A Starting Place."

1) Bates has started 4 games.  He left the first one when he was injured after 10 snaps.  We have yet to see how he'll hold up as a starter over a full season

What's the plan if he can't hold up?

2) Bates played well at LG.  Now we want him to play RG.  Some guys can move over seamlessly, some can't.

3) And again - the guy who is an NFL GM referred to the OL that ended the season as "a starting place".  So why is staying at "the starting place" good?

 

 

1) We can't sidestep the fact that while he played in 15 games last year, he played less than 60% of the snaps in 4 of them.  That would imply that in 6 of 17 games, he was not "full go" - that's 35% of the games.  What's the plan to compensate for that?  Maybe our S&C staff will get him right.  Maybe they won't.

2) Saffold's pro bowl was for his prowess in run blocking.  Saffold is undoubtedly an upgrade over Williams for run blocking, but we're a passing team.

 

And again - this is not new writing for me, I've detailed all this before.

 

 

I believe I heard somewhere that Quessenberry gave up a league leading number of sacks.  I don't think we should ignore that.

 

Mancz is a career journeyman.  He had a chance to start for Houston his 2nd season, and couldn't hang on to the job.  He can play at C and both G positions, just not well enough to have been able to hold down a starting position.  Basically, Feliciano lite.  He's a good fill-in, but probably not good enough to anchor a spot for 35% of the season.

 

I agree, Boettger would represent solid OG depth (and maybe contend as a starter) if he hadn't torn his Achilles.  If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.....

 

Again - when the Bills GM refers to our line as "a starting place", then returns the same line with one substitution for a guy who is arguably better at one aspect of his job, but worse at the aspect that is most important to the Bills (pass blocking) - and worse at availability.....it's not a situation that raises confidence in the "investors"

 

"I'm a chicken wing!  I'm a ***** chicken wing!" says "no"

 

We added 4 players in Free Agency that are Guards or who can play Guard. There are currently EIGHT on our roster:

 

Rodger Saffold, Ryan Bates, David Quessenberry, Ike Boettger, David Mancz, Cody Ford, Jacob Capra, Alec Anderson

 

You seem to have a "yeah, but" for almost every one. But your not liking what he's done is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Beane, McDermott, and Kromer see value in them or else they wouldn't have been brought in.

 

And if they were as worried about it as you are, they would have Drafted someone. The fact that they didn't speaks volumes to me (Terrel Bernard over Dylan Parham sticks out to me).

 

We're looking at the same line as last season with the following changes:

 

- Rodger Saffold - a Pro Bowl Guard we paid 6 million guaranteed to with our very first move in Free Agency - replacing Daryl Williams on the starting Line. Aaron Kromer coached him for multiple seasons. He has rapport with him and is aware of his strengths and weaknesses and will surely scheme to them.

 

- Ryan Bates moving from LG to RG. You keep going back to some "starting point" line. But the fact is, if Beane didn't see him as their Starter at RG for the season, he wouldn't have matched the long term offer from the Bears for 4 years, 17 million with 9 million guaranteed. He'd have let him walk and brought in a cheaper alternative as a reserve. 

 

- David Quessenberry will replace Jon Feliciano's roster spot last season as a Reserve while providing the flexibility to fill in at Guard or Tackle. He started all 17 games at RT for Tennessee last season. He couldn't be much worse than Feliciano or Doyle were for us last season.

 

- David Mancz will serve in Ike Boettger's role as a reserve, until he is ready to come off PUP (if he's not ready to start the season). He may or may not stick afterwards, depending on how Ike comes along and how he performs. He started 4 games last season for Miami and they must have seen something in his game and play last year to feel comfortable with him filling in if someone were to get hurt.

 

- Tommy Doyle will have a competition with Luke Tenuta as the last OT reserve on the 53, with the loser ending up gone or on the Practice Squad.

 

- And Aaron Kromer is a much more experienced coach than Bobby Johnson. I truly feel that his leaving was addition by subtraction (and I believe they do as well). I believe he'll do a better job with blocking schemes than we've seen in the past few years that could pay dividends.

 

Ultimately, you may not have liked some of the moves that were made or felt that they could have done more. But the Offensive Line (and Guard in particular) were addressed with multiple moves.

 

There's 15 Offensive Lineman on the roster right now that will be widdled down to 9. Your having doubts in the moves doesn't mean they didn't happen or they're going to do more by replacing the replacements because you feel they feel they should have done better. And looking at the Guards that are available at this point, I don't really see anyone out there that would provide a big upgrade.

Edited May 2, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[MAJBobby]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Without searching for it did we cut anyone? Yesterday this thread said we were at 90 already. Was that inaccurate?

I had a math issue. Double counted the Draft picks. 

[MAJBobby]

2nd camp invite 

 

 

[Magox]

A lot of teeth gnashing over the offensive line.  It’s clear that on paper the O-line is better than last year.

 

Spencer Brown going into his second year should be better than his rookie year.

 

Bates going into his first full season as the favored starter should be as good or better than last year.

 

Morse is solid.

 

Saffold is clear of Darryl Williams.

Dawkins is solid.

 

Depth: Boettger has starting experience and is serviceable relative to depth O-linemen in the league.

Quessenberry is solid depth for both IOL and swing tackle. 
Ford/Mancz/Doyle/Anderson.   You hope one of those guys emerge as viable depth.

 

Barring injury the line is fine enough.   They may go after another quality depth piece in FA this year.    Next year they will draft one with one of their premium draft choices.

 

[Big Turk]

10 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

maybe the USFL  will fill that spot.

 

 

 

The QB play in the Birmingham/New Orleans game Saturday was abysmal, so definitely not helping them.

[CSBill]

Do we have an actual list of the signed UFAs?

[MrEpsYtown]

7 minutes ago, CSBill said:

Do we have an actual list of the signed UFAs?

 

Everything is on the first page. Not sure if any of them are technically official yet. 

[DapperCam]

I think Wydermyer could make the roster. He pretty much has to beat out Sweeney, which is totally doable. Also probably has to show he can be a regular or special teams for this year.

[2003Contenders]

2 hours ago, Magox said:

A lot of teeth gnashing over the offensive line.  It’s clear that on paper the O-line is better than last year.

 

Spencer Brown going into his second year should be better than his rookie year.

 

Bates going into his first full season as the favored starter should be as good or better than last year.

 

Morse is solid.

 

Saffold is clear of Darryl Williams.

Dawkins is solid.

 

Depth: Boettger has starting experience and is serviceable relative to depth O-linemen in the league.

Quessenberry is solid depth for both IOL and swing tackle. 
Ford/Mancz/Doyle/Anderson.   You hope one of those guys emerge as viable depth.

 

Barring injury the line is fine enough.   They may go after another quality depth piece in FA this year.    Next year they will draft one with one of their premium draft choices.

 

 

Re-signing Darryl Williams to something close to a vet minimum contract is also a possibility.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, Magox said:

A lot of teeth gnashing over the offensive line.  It’s clear that on paper the O-line is better than last year.

 

Spencer Brown going into his second year should be better than his rookie year.

 

Bates going into his first full season as the favored starter should be as good or better than last year.

 

Morse is solid.

 

Saffold is clear of Darryl Williams.

Dawkins is solid.

 

Depth: Boettger has starting experience and is serviceable relative to depth O-linemen in the league.

Quessenberry is solid depth for both IOL and swing tackle. 
Ford/Mancz/Doyle/Anderson.   You hope one of those guys emerge as viable depth.

 

Barring injury the line is fine enough.   They may go after another quality depth piece in FA this year.    Next year they will draft one with one of their premium draft choices.

 

 

Quessenberry helps a lot.  

 

Bates has not played enough to have earned that deal - but we had to match otherwise its a gaping hole and it would be too late in FA to address it.  He didn't even play 300 snaps last year and had 3 starts at LG not RG.  He goes from having dawkins to spencer brown.  That's a big change in communication and skill.  

Saffold on the left between 2 good pass protectors helps, and he's a good run blocker.  

I like the attitude for Spencer Brown, and I know hes a workout machine - i just hope kromer can coach him up in pass pro a bit.  

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Magox said:

A lot of teeth gnashing over the offensive line.  It’s clear that on paper the O-line is better than last year.

 

 

 

Daryl Williams was coming off of a season where he was tremendous at RT........remember him shutting down TJ Watt?

 

Feliciano and Boettger were coming off good seasons..........that's why they extended Feliciano.

 

Cody Ford didn't have a middle name yet.

 

Ryan Bates was the depth player spoken in hushed tones about.

 

And they had just drafted a very athletic OT in Spencer Brown.

 

It's really NOT clear that they are better on paper than they were at this time last year.

 

Brown is coming off a really rough year in pass pro..........Bates is now a starter and has only played a handful of full games in his career...........Rodger Saffold missed 300+ snaps (about 5 games worth) due to a chronic shoulder condition and he is replacing Daryl Williams who played 98% of the snaps.    Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed as a tackle.    

 

This is a very thin unit on paper............the hope is just that Kromer can coach them up.   I'm a big Kromer fan and a defender of the offense's when he was here last time.  

 

But I've also been around long enough to remember them hiring the vaunted Jim "Mouse" McNally and assuming he could turn a sh*tty OL into salad from 2004-2007 and that didn't work out.    When your plan is to throw the ball A LOT you need dudes with pass blocking chops...........not sure Beane has even given Kromer even the minimum to work with.

 

 

[Magox]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Quessenberry helps a lot.  

 

Bates has not played enough to have earned that deal - but we had to match otherwise its a gaping hole and it would be too late in FA to address it.  He didn't even play 300 snaps last year and had 3 starts at LG not RG.  He goes from having dawkins to spencer brown.  That's a big change in communication and skill.  

Saffold on the left between 2 good pass protectors helps, and he's a good run blocker.  

I like the attitude for Spencer Brown, and I know hes a workout machine - i just hope kromer can coach him up in pass pro a bit.  

 

I think one more Vet who can provide quality depth throughout the IOL would be a good idea and for this year we can roll with that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Daryl Williams was coming off of a season where he was tremendous at RT........remember him shutting down TJ Watt?

 

Feliciano and Boettger were coming off good seasons..........that's why they extended Feliciano.

 

Cody Ford didn't have a middle name yet.

 

Ryan Bates was the depth player spoken in hushed tones about.

 

And they had just drafted a very athletic OT in Spencer Brown.

 

It's really NOT clear that they are better on paper than they were at this time last year.

 

Brown is coming off a really rough year in pass pro..........Bates is now a starter and has only played a handful of full games in his career...........Rodger Saffold missed 300+ snaps (about 5 games worth) due to a chronic shoulder condition and he is replacing Daryl Williams who played 98% of the snaps.    Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed as a tackle.    

 

This is a very thin unit on paper............the hope is just that Kromer can coach them up.   I'm a big Kromer fan and a defender of the offense's when he was here last time.  

 

But I've also been around long enough to remember them hiring the vaunted Jim "Mouse" McNally and assuming he could turn a sh*tty OL into salad from 2004-2007 and that didn't work out.    When your plan is to throw the ball A LOT you need dudes with pass blocking chops...........not sure Beane has even given Kromer even the minimum to work with.

 

 

 

All of this. 

 

Going into last season, I thought Darryl Williams had locked the RT spot down for several years (that's why he was extended)

I thought Feliciano played pretty well coming off shoulder surgery off-season, then a torn pec, and would be even better with  full off-season to train.

I didn't quite buy the "Ford will be one of our best 5 because he's played injured so much and now he's healthy" schtick, but Boettger was healthy and had played well in limited action so I figured between the two, we should be OK.  Then, we spent a 3rd and a 5th round draft pick on OL and added a couple lower-tier FA who had shown they could play in Forrest Lamp and Jamil Douglas

 

My concern was run blocking, but I thought perhaps Daboll would come up with something and also go back to the pin-and-pull blocking where Morse excelled in 2019 and previously. 

 

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but this season to date,  we've clearly done less.  Fewer draft resources; Saffold is an upgrade to Williams in the run game and (as of the last 2 years) a downgrade in the critical "best ability is Availability" game.  It just doesn't seem like Beane has put his resources where his own mouth is in referencing the OL at the end of last season as "a good starting point".

 

The only thing I will say is Pilttsburgh opener, Daboll showed his plan was essentially a spread offense with 4 or 5 WR and using Sanders and Beasley in concert so teams couldn't bracket both of them.  And right off the bat Keith Butler laid down a pretty good template for how to give that a miserable day.  So that plan coupled with a style of run game we simply couldn't support did the OL no favors, and he was PAINFULLY slow to adapt.  So the Big Unknown is whether the OC Brain Trust Triumverate of Dorsey, Brady, and Kromer will pull smoothly in harness and do better. 

 

It's possible.

 

But yeah, I'm very uneasy about whether Beane has given Kromer enough to work with.

[NickelCity]

10 hours ago, Garrett Williams said:

Not at the same time

 

 

 

Gotta pay extra for that

[MAJBobby]

A Bit interesting seeing 3 camp invites when there are open Roster spots (5) at this point.  Almost like the Bills are purposely holding those spots open at this point.  They routinely in the past have held 2 open with UDFAs, but right now seems to be holding 5 open as all the recent news is coming about camp invites instead of additional UDFA signings.

 

Also as Wednesday is the normal time the have released their official UDFAs signings.  I will keep monitoring but at this point the official list may be released before any more UDFA signings get reported

Edited May 2, 2022 by MAJBobby

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

A Bit interesting seeing 3 camp invites when there are open Roster spots (5) at this point.  Almost like the Bills are purposely holding those spots open at this point.  They routinely in the past have held 2 open with UDFAs, but right now seems to be holding 5 open as all the recent news is coming about camp invites instead of additional UDFA signings.

 

Also as Wednesday is the normal time the have released their official UDFAs signings.  I will keep monitoring but at this point the official list may be released before any more UDFA signings get reported

 

 

Yes I think they have offers out to unrestricted free agents and are keeping roster spots open. 

 

Hopefully one of them is an outside receiver...........not pursuing a full-sized boundary option in the draft,  or in UDFA even,  makes me think this.   

 

And that OT and OG are the others.

 

Neither position is as good/deep as it was at this time last offseason.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Magox]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Daryl Williams was coming off of a season where he was tremendous at RT........remember him shutting down TJ Watt?

 

Feliciano and Boettger were coming off good seasons..........that's why they extended Feliciano.

 

Cody Ford didn't have a middle name yet.

 

Ryan Bates was the depth player spoken in hushed tones about.

 

And they had just drafted a very athletic OT in Spencer Brown.

 

It's really NOT clear that they are better on paper than they were at this time last year.

 

Brown is coming off a really rough year in pass pro..........Bates is now a starter and has only played a handful of full games in his career...........Rodger Saffold missed 300+ snaps (about 5 games worth) due to a chronic shoulder condition and he is replacing Daryl Williams who played 98% of the snaps.    Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed as a tackle.    

 

This is a very thin unit on paper............the hope is just that Kromer can coach them up.   I'm a big Kromer fan and a defender of the offense's when he was here last time.  

 

But I've also been around long enough to remember them hiring the vaunted Jim "Mouse" McNally and assuming he could turn a sh*tty OL into salad from 2004-2007 and that didn't work out.    When your plan is to throw the ball A LOT you need dudes with pass blocking chops...........not sure Beane has even given Kromer even the minimum to work with.

 

 

 

Right, but the more accurate gauge to judge them by is not how they played the season before in 2020 but rather where we left off in 2021.

 

Daryl Williams who I consider to be serviceable, wasn't a good tackle in 2021 but he was ok at guard.    Saffold, played better than Williams in 2021 when they were playing the guard positions.  I saw your argument about his lack of availability with him but my most accounts and his peers he was the better player.

 

Mongo was a decent option in 2020, but had a really bad year in 2021.  Should we judge his 2020 or 2021 year?  Makes more sense to judge his 2021 year and the opportunity that was given to Bates in 2021, he not only exceeded expectations but he played at a level down the stretch in pressure packed games at a considerably higher level than Mongo did in 2020, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

 

Quessenberry, even though he gave up a lot of sacks, he also had a very good PFF ranking.  He's not penciled in to be the starter but I think he serves as a quality utility Lineman who can play both tackle and IOL positions.   Boettger was a starter and wasn't god awful, he was just kind of meh.  Which in terms of depth, meh turns into OK depth.

 

I do think with Kromer that he may be able to get a little more out of the line than his predecessor and I also believe that Bates and Spencer Brown going into their first full year as the front runners to start should theoretically perform better than they did in their first year as starters.

 

I am not arguing that this is the line and we don't need work but for the 2022 season, barring injury they should be a better unit than what we saw in 2021.   Next year, I believe will be the year they will put some premium draft capital into the line.